Why the new Operations are threatening to kill the game.

[psikofunkster]

One thing I have noticed when DF, DP came out I was able to join a Pug raid every night and complete these 2 ops almost every night since multiple groups would form, but since the arrival of these new ops I barely see any ops forming any more. Lucky enough for me I manage to clear them every week with my guild but I also like to gear out my other toons it's extremely hard to find groups. Some people seem to think that it will show people how to raid and SM is not difficult enough or should stay the way they are but I beg to differ slowly people will start to leave since some of the content is not accessible to them and they can't be bothered with it. Bioware is putting itself in a very bad position it's SM content for crying out loud. They should nerf the crap out of these ops and make them accessible to everyone.

 

But also if they nerf them people are gonna leave i mean i have 4 toons, 1 on guild and i run both 2 new ops each week complete, i can't find a competent guild for the other 3 so, 1 is better geared than the others. To be sincere i'm just bored of both ops, i don't see myself just doing this for an entire year so time to get a huge break.

 

On the contrary there are people playing this game who just love to wipe and wipe the same bosses on HM, that's their life they love to do it. weird but true. So EA successfully is delivering the kind of content those players want.

Edited March 8, 2015 by psikofunkster

[LordCorrino]

As a new player, there is simply a lot of content that I don't really see because everyone is doing the two new operations. I know MMOs like to pimp their new missions, but it seems to me that it makes the most sense to give players a reason to play all the content.

 

1. There should be a SM version of all operations that are tuned for 60s and drops token Elite gear.

2. There should be a 60 version of Flashpoints that are tuned for 60s and drop non-token Elite gear with maybe one token Elite at the end.

 

They can be less generous with Ultimate gear on harder levels, but it would be nice if there were multiple PUGs forming to run the content.

[DarthZaul]

Yup. Bioware have forgotten what story mode means. It's supposed to be something you faceroll so you can see the story. Not something rage inducing because the last boss is buggier than an insect nest or the 3rd boss is way too hard.

[Shwarzchild]

Yup. Bioware have forgotten what story mode means. It's supposed to be something you faceroll so you can see the story. Not something rage inducing because the last boss is buggier than an insect nest or the 3rd boss is way too hard.

 

Nope. I think you've forgotten what an operation is defined as in game. It's has no god mode, because it's not meant to have a god mode. But, one thing is true...the bugs are rough and unacceptable. Skill wise though, no if an Operation at any level were meant to be a faceroll easy time for everyone the description wouldn't read something like "more skilled game play is needed to be successful" or whatever it really does say in the tool tip.

 

Buy the cliff notes if you don't want to read the book. Aka go watch youtube cut scenes if you want to just skip the fights. There's no shame in it. I do it sometimes. No big deal.

[Fidelicatessen]

Yup. Bioware have forgotten what story mode means. It's supposed to be something you faceroll so you can see the story. Not something rage inducing because the last boss is buggier than an insect nest or the 3rd boss is way too hard.

 

Bugs are nasty, and should be squashed.

 

But NO operation should be a faceroll your first time through. I think you're forgetting what an operation is supposed to be. YouTube videos are faceroll-worthy, though.

[g_land]

One thing I have noticed when DF, DP came out I was able to join a Pug raid every night and complete these 2 ops almost every night since multiple groups would form, but since the arrival of these new ops I barely see any ops forming any more. Lucky enough for me I manage to clear them every week with my guild but I also like to gear out my other toons it's extremely hard to find groups. Some people seem to think that it will show people how to raid and SM is not difficult enough or should stay the way they are but I beg to differ slowly people will start to leave since some of the content is not accessible to them and they can't be bothered with it. Bioware is putting itself in a very bad position it's SM content for crying out loud. They should nerf the crap out of these ops and make them accessible to everyone.

 

Again people forget... when df dp came out people were about two gear tiers above the required rating so it was of course easier. Also when those two operations released, everything that had been available for ultimate comms could now be bought with elites and people who had saved their ultimates could buy gear that was 4 levels above the required gear level.

 

Tl:dr your comparison is... well... if written on paper wouldn't be worth the value of the paper.

Edited March 11, 2015 by g_land

[Kacynski]

Again people forget... when df dp came out people were about two gear tiers above the required rating so it was of course easier. Also when those two operations released, everything that had been available for ultimate comms could now be bought with elites and people who had saved their ultimates could buy gear that was 4 levels above the required gear level.

 

Tl:dr your comparison is... well... if written on paper wouldn't be worth the value of the paper.

 

I disagree on the notion that people were already overgeared when DF/DP came out. When DF/DP came life most people would have 4pc - 162's and 168's from the comm vendor, which is slightly above the recommended gear level but not massively overgearing it. And yes, during that time these two OPs where actually quite hard.

But they were doable with pugs and I pugged them a lot back then. There were wipes on Draxus and Brontes in DF and there were wipes on the council in DP. But it was 2 or 3 wipes per boss and not a complete roadblock like we have it now with the Underlurker.

 

Later on, when people were swimming in ultimate comms, all the OPs became easy mode, that is true. But when they first went life there wasn't massive overgearing.

[Island_Jedi]

I disagree on the notion that people were already overgeared when DF/DP came out. When DF/DP came life most people would have 4pc - 162's and 168's from the comm vendor, which is slightly above the recommended gear level but not massively overgearing it. And yes, during that time these two OPs where actually quite hard.

But they were doable with pugs and I pugged them a lot back then. There were wipes on Draxus and Brontes in DF and there were wipes on the council in DP. But it was 2 or 3 wipes per boss and not a complete roadblock like we have it now with the Underlurker.

 

Later on, when people were swimming in ultimate comms, all the OPs became easy mode, that is true. But when they first went life there wasn't massive overgearing.

 

You speak truth.

[g_land]

I disagree on the notion that people were already overgeared when DF/DP came out. When DF/DP came life most people would have 4pc - 162's and 168's from the comm vendor, which is slightly above the recommended gear level but not massively overgearing it. And yes, during that time these two OPs where actually quite hard.

But they were doable with pugs and I pugged them a lot back then. There were wipes on Draxus and Brontes in DF and there were wipes on the council in DP. But it was 2 or 3 wipes per boss and not a complete roadblock like we have it now with the Underlurker.

 

Later on, when people were swimming in ultimate comms, all the OPs became easy mode, that is true. But when they first went life there wasn't massive overgearing.

 

April through October of gaining comms prior to df/dp release.... on day one you would have a 180 offhand, belt and then bracers with a fp weekly and classic weekly from beating a bugged EV hm... gear that was 4 tiers above required plus whatever they accumulated over those previous 6 months filled in with those extra elite comms that they had that then bought 168s. It's amazing that people attempt to argue that there wasn't a large amount of overgearing. Prior to those releases people pugging operations for SV TFB on fleet would get upset and kick people from group if they didn't have 35k hp... newsflash... that was ultimate comms gear which was 168...

 

Now, you might not have been greatly overgeared but a great many people were if you had bothered to check anything. I pugged those ops at least 3-4 times a week when they released and everyone in those groups had at least 35k hp... OVERGEARED

[Kacynski]

Now, you might not have been greatly overgeared but a great many people were if you had bothered to check anything. I pugged those ops at least 3-4 times a week when they released and everyone in those groups had at least 35k hp... OVERGEARED

 

Actually I checked most of my teammates during that time when pugging, because I was still in need of 162's set pieces at that time and wanted to make sure I get a fair chance to roll for it (i.e. calling out people that rolled for a set token they already had on their toon). Most people I ran with had 30 - 32k hitpoints. On my server the massive overgearing you are suggesting didn't happen before summer 2014.

 

But we can argue this all night long, it's not my main point. My main point is that these OPs could be pugged at the time of their release. I could clear S&V with a pug geared in 156's and I could clear DF in a pug geared in 162's. It involved wipes and sometimes a group would disband. But that was the exception and not the rule. I usually made it through S&V and TfB in about 2 hours and I made it through DF and DP in about 1 1/2 hours.

My first run thorugh S&V I made in blue 148's with most others having 162's token pieces. It was a non issue. Today there is NO group that would take me with them to the Underluker if I would be sporting blue 178's .... that's the point of my argument.

[lpope]

April through October of gaining comms prior to df/dp release.... on day one you would have a 180 offhand, belt and then bracers with a fp weekly and classic weekly from beating a bugged EV hm... gear that was 4 tiers above required plus whatever they accumulated over those previous 6 months filled in with those extra elite comms that they had that then bought 168s. It's amazing that people attempt to argue that there wasn't a large amount of overgearing. Prior to those releases people pugging operations for SV TFB on fleet would get upset and kick people from group if they didn't have 35k hp... newsflash... that was ultimate comms gear which was 168...

 

Now, you might not have been greatly overgeared but a great many people were if you had bothered to check anything. I pugged those ops at least 3-4 times a week when they released and everyone in those groups had at least 35k hp... OVERGEARED

 

I suspect that experience was different based on server. I don't remember there being that much over-gearing on PUG runs on Jedi Covenant. I know for a long time, PUGs had a hard time downing Draxus because of the bugs and it was nearly impossible to down 16M Council for a long time because DPS was short. In any case, DF / DP release really isn't a good comparison to today because they were released mid expansions. It's kind of expected that people would be over-geared when there were two other operations available that dropped the same kind of gear that SM DF / DP was.

 

A better comparison to today would be ROTHC which had a level increase as well as a gear reset. The DF / DP release really didn't have a gear reset per se, just tier expansions. Sadly, I don't remember how PUG runs were when that dropped. I'm getting too old to remember that far back.

[JouerTue]

I suspect that experience was different based on server. I don't remember there being that much over-gearing on PUG runs on Jedi Covenant. I know for a long time, PUGs had a hard time downing Draxus because of the bugs and it was nearly impossible to down 16M Council for a long time because DPS was short. In any case, DF / DP release really isn't a good comparison to today because they were released mid expansions. It's kind of expected that people would be over-geared when there were two other operations available that dropped the same kind of gear that SM DF / DP was.

 

A better comparison to today would be ROTHC which had a level increase as well as a gear reset. The DF / DP release really didn't have a gear reset per se, just tier expansions. Sadly, I don't remember how PUG runs were when that dropped. I'm getting too old to remember that far back.

 

people were mostly in 162-168. HM with 168 gear was really hard. pugs failed at draxus and took ages to pug council. my experience though. and anyway it's still getting better. ravagers is routine for most of the players and you can carry a dead dps on UL both heals and dps wise, just hide and anticipate a bit the burn phase..

[AlrikFassbauer]

When I was new to OPs, that was during the time of S&V, I was advices to have 35k health at minimum - and Companions 25k minimum. Not knowing it any better, I followed this.

[darthgamer]

Shoraan m8. Thank you for you time consuming response and pretty post. I wont be doing the same cause /lazy. Also, thank you for that insight on the differences between pugs and raid teams but it really wasn't necessary.

 

Throughout your entire reply you demonstrated that you are one of those who are not of the mindset to get on board with the direction BW is going with their ops. Also, this thread is about ops so when you start bringing in other aspects of the game it deludes what you're actually trying to say. You like GSF, you don't like ops, ok...we know who you are, thank you.

 

You also missed the idea of "premium clients". No where in my post did i mention anything monetary, but more so eluded to the level of commitment to the game they love to play. Any good developer would love to work for a game that has a great community that thrives off their creations. However, for yourself and others, who say "if the entertainment I gain from swtor is worth $15/month or greater, i'll stay. If not i'll move on", you may not be in BW's direction in regards TO RAIDING. Ya there's aspects to the game other than raiding and we all take part in different ways but they haven't made PvP harder, nor GSF, or crafting, or RP'ing. Nothing has gotten harder except raiding. If that level of the game is too high for some, as you're saying it is, then don't do it.

 

You literally are the actual example of the people i was pointing out that BW may be moving away from. If you stay on board cause of the other aspects of this game, cool, its a win for BW. if not, they seem to be looking to new types of clients anyways so you both part ways, it happens.

Halo lost those who loved old school H:CE & H2 because they changed to accommodate for growth and the acquisition of new clientele. Looking back, saying that Halo is gonna die when H3 comes out is ludicrous...as the franchise is still going. Same deal here, old clientele is being swapped out for new ones simply because the game is moving into a new era and that era just so happens to include harder ops.

Your analogy with the football team is right, where the club went a different direction from your own views. you expressed your differences and you moved on to find something that suited you better. The club (like BW) is moving to a position they want to be in, or seems like they want to be in. You will no doubt do the same. If you're still playing the game in a month, cool, i'll see ya around.

 

I literally never write this much on these forums and i apologize to all the others that are usually like me when they see walls of text.

 

After 3 1/2 years I've come to the conclusion that people like you are the delusional ones get real like come on TORtannic ring a bell "what they set forth for us'? are you high?

[FerkWork]

After 3 1/2 years I've come to the conclusion that people like you are the delusional ones get real like come on TORtannic ring a bell "what they set forth for us'? are you high?

 

I wasn't but your post makes me question that as I have no idea what your point is.

Edited March 12, 2015 by FerkWork

[darthgamer]

I wasn't but your post makes me question that as I have no idea what your point is.

 

I just find it funny people still take raiding in this game as serious as they do lol kings of the crap hill oh well:rolleyes:

[DarthScruffy]

people were mostly in 162-168. HM with 168 gear was really hard. pugs failed at draxus and took ages to pug council. my experience though. and anyway it's still getting better. ravagers is routine for most of the players and you can carry a dead dps on UL both heals and dps wise, just hide and anticipate a bit the burn phase..

 

HM wasn't that bad on the Oriconian. The funny thing is that the current ops actually (with the exception of the middle two of ToS) addressed one major criticism of the Oriconian: too many unforgiving dps checks. One could completely pass on all gear, not spend comms and still clear most of it.

 

Awareness checks are the name of the game here. I think the adjustments needed for SM are:

1) space the UL mechanics more, (the rinse/repeat is a little too tight)-the cross will still bedevil groups, but at least it would be an actual awareness check as opposed to distraction from piled up adds.

 

2) Adjust the enrage so sword 2 can go down to 3-5% rather than cut it so honking close.

 

Most PUG groups are getting Bulo (some with more effort than others) and Torque is getting more regular. These are the only two that don't seem to fit with the current theme. Making them more "pure awareness" fights would fit with the current theme and still make groups work.

[voltaicbore]

Just my 2 cents:

 

I consider myself solidly casual, in that I am allergic to raid schedules and the vast majority of my ops clears came from leading/co-leading pug ops. That being said, I always took learning my class very seriously, and that was something I could do on my own time, on my own terms, and without messing up someone else's progression schedule.

 

Back in the day I remember clearing an 16m SM DF pug on Imp side with 0 wipes, and the group (from a wide variety of guilds that were *not* famous for raiding) was all in 162 or worse (I think 3 people out of the 16 had augments, I myself was 156 with a handful of augments. Must have been alt night). That was the second time I'd run DF across my entire legacy, although I watched Dulfy's game tape several times.

 

That experience, when compared to my witnessing many pugs in 168 token/180 comms gear get mercilessly wiped by Draxus, just further entrenches me in the view that it's not gear or content that wipes most groups - it's just the lack of willingness or ability to learn what it takes to clear the fight.

 

Granted, that opinion depends on the assumption that the SM content is not bugged and properly tuned for what 186 (which I consider this era's version of 156/162) can reasonably accomplish, and by all indications it's a bit tight. I read the per-person dps parse figures a bit further up in the thread, and indeed it seems like a new 60 sporting 186s and few augs would have issues meeting those numbers.

 

But it's always tight at the entry level, or at least I think that should be the case. Until I find out otherwise, I tend to believe that the current ops are doable, but most casual and pug raiders have just been spoiled by the era of having ults rain from the sky, being able to learn DF/DP with almost an entire 180 comms set ready to go.

[Island_Jedi]

I am getting reports that fleet is dwindling in numbers. Has anyone noticed a decrease in activity?

[lightSaberAddiCt]

I am getting reports that fleet is dwindling in numbers. Has anyone noticed a decrease in activity?

 

Not on JC. Usually at least 2 instances of fleet, with like 168 peeps.

[FerkWork]

I am getting reports that fleet is dwindling in numbers. Has anyone noticed a decrease in activity?

 

JC as well. Saw 4 groups were spamming for Ravagers last night during prime time.

 

Also cleared another pug Ravagers. And farmed Ravagers and Temple in guild run on SM.

Don't know where your reports are coming from but I would like to see those sources.

[bdatt]

I am getting reports that fleet is dwindling in numbers. Has anyone noticed a decrease in activity?

 

Lstely I only go to fleet to grab and turn in quests. I spend more time on guild flagship which is connected to fleet chat but wouldn't count towards fleet population, I assume.

Edited March 13, 2015 by bdatt

[Almhath]

I......I dont understand why you would alienate a huge part of your customer base, that are keeping the game alive for the "progressive" players like myself. What we need to understand as a community is, that we all need each other to keep this game alive. Making the game more attractive to "progressive" players is an oversight, why? Because you can cater to both groups by making sure your content is tuned for the right audience. Make the storymodes easier, keep the hardmodes as hard as they are now and make the NIM content so hard that clearing it will be a thing of myth and legend. Why not keep both groups happy? Its so simple.

.

 

I agree.

[Island_Jedi]

JC as well. Saw 4 groups were spamming for Ravagers last night during prime time.

 

Also cleared another pug Ravagers. And farmed Ravagers and Temple in guild run on SM.

Don't know where your reports are coming from but I would like to see those sources.

 

Harbinger players

[FerkWork]

Harbinger players

 

I don't play on Harbringer so I would have to ask several players about who play there to verify this.