JouerTue Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 (edited) what excludes people from the game content, is keeping players out of a guild run, even if they are newcomers..i mean go in voice chat and explain, explain the tactics, the classes..it won't take long to push a newbie above 2.5k dps, lol give them an adrenal.how did you do it the first night of ToS? 180/186 and without any clue. personally we didn't even hide behind the rocks until the last instants of rage storm and had 5-6 wipes Edited March 27, 2015 by JouerTue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlrikFassbauer Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 (edited) what excludes people from the game content, is keeping players out of a guild run, even if they are newcomers.. Exactly this. It creates an "closed circles" problem, which is fine for the hardcore players, but closes everyone else out. Look, I don't have any trouble to down UL with my raidgroup. We know what to do and our DPS put out high enough numbers. Fail, because you are already thinking in terms of closed circles, and not in terms of PUGs. If you had written "Look, I don't have any trouble to down UL with a PUG." then it would have been different. But those who constantly claim that "we had no problems with UL with their guild" are already part of the system / part of the closed circles and just cannot imagine how it is for PUGs to battle certain enemies. Edited March 27, 2015 by AlrikFassbauer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kacynski Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Fail, because you are already thinking in terms of closed circles, and not in terms of PUGs. If you had written "Look, I don't have any trouble to down UL with a PUG." then it would have been different. But those who constantly claim that "we had no problems with UL with their guild" are already part of the system / part of the closed circles and just cannot imagine how it is for PUGs to battle certain enemies. You should read more closely what the people actually write before you quote them with "fail" ..... I was saying that I have no problem with UL in a raidgroup (as an answer to someone that just said L2P, that's not the issue here) and I still think it is overtuned and not feasible for PuGs. Also I was the one saying that it's a shame ToS kind of creates an atmosphere of exclusion and I'm not liking that ... Actually I think now I have been adressed as a noob that needs to l2p as well as an exclusive elitist that doesn't understand the problems of a PuG in the same thread ... time to move on I think Anyway, ceterum censeo the UL is overtuned for random groups, good day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Island_Jedi Posted March 28, 2015 Author Share Posted March 28, 2015 You should read more closely what the people actually write before you quote them with "fail" ..... I was saying that I have no problem with UL in a raidgroup (as an answer to someone that just said L2P, that's not the issue here) and I still think it is overtuned and not feasible for PuGs. Also I was the one saying that it's a shame ToS kind of creates an atmosphere of exclusion and I'm not liking that ... Actually I think now I have been adressed as a noob that needs to l2p as well as an exclusive elitist that doesn't understand the problems of a PuG in the same thread ... time to move on I think Anyway, ceterum censeo the UL is overtuned for random groups, good day. I like your posts and I think you should stick around continue the fight. Continue the fight to show how stupidily tuned the UL fight is. Continue the fight for the devs to actually give us GOOD content. Most of the new content is lacking in fun mechanics compared to DF/DP. Simply making bosses hit hard and giving tight enrages is a lazy way to make ops hard. I really feel like the super second string devs are making all the content now. The devs right now are kidding themselves if they think the current tier of content can compare to they're direct competition which is WOW. Please give us some epic ops with good narrative and INTERESTING mechanics. This whole tier of content is praised by hardcore raiders as being good. It is decent, not good. Give us some epic battles, I want memorable characters. Where are the fights with ADDS. ADD fights are sorely missing in this tier Revanite commanders is the only fight where you have a lot of adds to deal with at a time. ADD fights add diversity to spec superiority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JouerTue Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 lurker has adds, bulo has adds, torque has adds and even more adds in hm, and all around on these bosses have to be dealt with in both difficulty tiers even if in different ways.. again about UL i won't take in consideration here the video about 4 manning it, but sure it means some carrying is now well possible assuming all the players can hide and do the cross correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaleijo Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 ... assuming all the players can hide and do the cross correctly. Which is one of the big problems most PUGs have with the UL, there are so many players who don't know right or left and aren't able to avoid the stones or to play the cross correctly, even if they just have to follow another player marked with a star. Most of the time the damage output of PUGs i met so far is sufficient, not great, but enough to kill the boss. Movement is the true problem. If players kill themselves with stones or kill each other by failing at the cross mechanic repeatedly, the group has lost. With the UL only very few PUGs can afford a dead player, as it has dire effects on the following phases. Up to now you could always take someone who was slower or unexperienced with you, he would probably die often, but if the rest of the group was able enough they would still kill the boss. The newcomer wouldn't be assinged to any important mechanic anyway, like interrupt at draxus, getting the bomb at Sword Squadron and stuff like this. He would be there to watch and learn the fight and add some damage. He would usually only kill himself and not someone else if he ignored or forgot a mechanic. But with the cross he is important now and failing there, punishes the whole group and there is the huge potential to kill someone else. There are a few other bosses where one person failing a mechanic is able to kill the group, but there PUGs usually use tactics that ignore certain parts of the mechanics to prevent just that, usually on the back of the healers who just heal through things. For example at Calphayus, only going through one portal with the whole group instead of past and future with half the group each, if you know that your group would fail with the future part. S+V City encounter, making the group wait while two or four strong players clear the four teams. Staying in melee range of Corruptor Zero to avoid problems with mines, and many more. If you have average good healers and/or some good dps one dead person usually doesn't matter. But with the Underlurker every single player of the group does matter, even if it is only to survive and stand at the right spot. If one fails repeatedly with movement or positioning the typical PUG is screwed. At least in my experience, the one standing at the wrong spot during the cross isn't the one who dies, he usually kills one of the best dps in the group. As the mechanic repeats itself, there are at least 4 chances to stand in the wrong place and kill someone. Once you can rezz a player, but if another one dies, you usually have lost, because now the typical PUG has a damage problem. (Assuming the healers were able to heal up the rest of the group against that extra cross damage in the first place. Only few PUG players seem to remember how to use their own defensive cooldowns there to help the healers.) Is it really asked too much for a SM Operation to be able to move to a certain spot in time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onegoldpls Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 I remember times when pugs could easily faceroll sv and tfb sm in 16m, atleast casual players had something to do. There is so little population even on pve server like red eclipse, that it's even imposible to complete weekly mission now probably because people know they just won't pass second boss. Finding a rading guild is not a solution because there are only few of them and chances for your class to apply is very low. SM just need a very big nerf, end of the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Advent Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 I wish there were a way to drive up queues for those without guilds that didn't involve nerfing the operations to boring ease, but I can't think of anything that would make most people happy. For my part, I'm in a grad program with a schedule that changes every week, so I can't even honestly offer tentative support to a guild's scheduled operations. PUGs are the only choice for me, and I can't remember the last time I've had such an awful time finding groups for story mode ops. I can just let TOR idle for hours and hours while I do other things and never come close to missing a chance. I don't even see people asking in fleet chat anymore for one or two random players to complete their guild group. I haven't had a chance to play either of the SOR operations, but are they really that bad still? It's been a few months, and while my finger isn't on the pulse of things anymore when it comes to TOR I'd be surprised if things haven't been nerfed or bugs fixed just a little bit. Are the rewards too crappy? Are the fights uninteresting? I just want to finish them at least once before the next major story update, but it's like the Ebon Hawk has an allergy to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onegoldpls Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 (edited) I wish there were a way to drive up queues for those without guilds that didn't involve nerfing the operations to boring ease, but I can't think of anything that would make most people happy. I played few weeks after expansion and returned now and still can't even finish weekly mission. As dps I managed to find 16m group through queue several times, but they always ended on second boss. Almost noone is looking for ops groups from chat even if the red eclipse is porbably the most active server. Seems like noone really wants to. But population of servers almost the same as year ago(a bit lower), and there were a lot more ops groups those times. There is no way except nerfing sm. If you really want to raid you still have hm difficulty. Remember that difficulty is killing games. Wanna hardcore game - see Wildstar. it's already much deader than swtor in less than year. And remember if you have a good raiding guild, it doesn't mean everyone else can find it. Without casual community the game will die very fast and your good raiding guild won't matter anything. Edited March 30, 2015 by onegoldpls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shwarzchild Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 I wish there were a way to drive up queues for those without guilds that didn't involve nerfing the operations to boring ease, but I can't think of anything that would make most people happy. For my part, I'm in a grad program with a schedule that changes every week, so I can't even honestly offer tentative support to a guild's scheduled operations. PUGs are the only choice for me, and I can't remember the last time I've had such an awful time finding groups for story mode ops. I can just let TOR idle for hours and hours while I do other things and never come close to missing a chance. I don't even see people asking in fleet chat anymore for one or two random players to complete their guild group. I haven't had a chance to play either of the SOR operations, but are they really that bad still? It's been a few months, and while my finger isn't on the pulse of things anymore when it comes to TOR I'd be surprised if things haven't been nerfed or bugs fixed just a little bit. Are the rewards too crappy? Are the fights uninteresting? I just want to finish them at least once before the next major story update, but it's like the Ebon Hawk has an allergy to them. Im sorry but this is terribly false. For instance: every Wednesday night at 8-9 we do an open raid night. Anyone can come. If you're online and want to raid, we'll make sure a group is set up for you to be in. Whether it's 8 man or 16 man, or 2 8 man groups. There would be a place for you to raid without having to have any sort of commitment. If you wanted to raid on a Wednesday and were free, you could just log in, and join. If you were busy, you wouldn't need to feel like you're missing anything. If you were free on the weekends Saturdays we tend to have good support for classic ops groups, so if you were trying to play you could. Pugs are not the only option for people. You're stuck in one frame of mind that is outdated. Tons of people feel like they can't join a guild because it would take too much time, or be too much effort. That's just false. It's almost like people dating these days thinking that online is the only way they can talk to people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Advent Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Im sorry but this is terribly false. For instance: every Wednesday night at 8-9 we do an open raid night. Anyone can come. If you're online and want to raid, we'll make sure a group is set up for you to be in. Whether it's 8 man or 16 man, or 2 8 man groups. There would be a place for you to raid without having to have any sort of commitment. If you wanted to raid on a Wednesday and were free, you could just log in, and join. If you were busy, you wouldn't need to feel like you're missing anything. If you were free on the weekends Saturdays we tend to have good support for classic ops groups, so if you were trying to play you could. Pugs are not the only option for people. You're stuck in one frame of mind that is outdated. Tons of people feel like they can't join a guild because it would take too much time, or be too much effort. That's just false. It's almost like people dating these days thinking that online is the only way they can talk to people. Cool story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shwarzchild Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Cool story. just an example that there are options besides feeling like random groups are the only thing someone can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrwellworth Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 just an example that there are options besides feeling like random groups are the only thing someone can do. This is completely true. I know of many guilds, including mine that have open nights, and a sign up for every night of the week on our website where you can sign up for yes or maybe. Lots of guilds may have a main raid team that plays on a schedule, and maybe you cannot make that, but to say that because of your time constraints you cannot join a guild and cannot raid is indeed false. There are so many options open to you, all you have to do is ask. A wise man once said; a closed mouth doesn't get fed. If you really want to raid, get out there and find it. Research guilds, ask questions. You may be surprised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Island_Jedi Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 (edited) The reality of the situation is that you can not control how people react to your game. You can only respond to that reaction. Asking players to get "good" is a horribly ineffective way to address the concern that the content is too hard. It not only belittles they're feelings it perpetuates the idea that this game is only for a niche audience and niche audience games do not always do well (ie: Wildstar). You need your game to be accessible and approprietly challenging for the audience it is intended for, simple. With three tiers of content every type of endgame player should be covered from "bad" to "worldclass". If Bioware is saying "get good" or "get out" then they are kidding themselves if they think that will make the game more profitable. The other thing about guilds offering support to people that need help. I believe that some of you sincerely do offer help to the server when your on, but your not enough. If the few guilds that help support pugs were doing enough, there would not be an outcry of the fleet having much less operations forming then in previous. Everyone can continue to speak in terms of idealism, but the reality of realism is enough of the community feels its hard to get into successful pugs. That is a fact. The question I present to the community and the devs is does the decline in the activity of endgame concern you. Will this game continue to be successful if a large portion of your player base are not involved in your endgame. Is your product going to be sustainable without CURRENT endgame. Edited March 30, 2015 by Island_Jedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JouerTue Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 i usually start tos without asking for achievments, giving advices about the tactics etc. this leads to different scenarios: - wipes at SS, insufficient dps: kicks or disbanding. - wipes at UL insufficient dps: ask to follow tactics and minor adjustments, cycling through replacements, eventually kicks or disbanding. - oneshot everything. - some wipes at SS or UL but clearly good group, repeat until kill or run out of time and disband. 1-2 are the least common now, and usually changing a dps or two or rarely a healer can make the difference since for newbie it might take a few tries, but you immediately see if it can be done ( it's not the case an enrage above 50% or lack of burst on adds) usually minor tweaks and better tactics execution change the fight, like from enrage at 35-40% to a kill, and in general TRE has real efficient pugs together with a lot of raiders pugging, i'm just sorry to not have all the time to do SM progression..i wish a lot of willing raiders would find good guilds.. anyway the most important things to enlight people with are, UL: - hide and hide>killing third add, if dps is low - do cross correctly or stack for sonic rebounder VG/PT utility, put the weaker player( doing cross wrongly) in the back spot with some focus from healers - focus dps from add to add - hide behind the same rock SS: - competent bomb carrier - limit dps switches, chain bomb U1 - don't go too far from healers and bulo: - don't go behind the tanks - dps barrel carrier - spread - tanks tank pirates until taken by barrel - don't go behind the tanks if you make these things clear and give some time to try to the less hardened, you'll do it..but obviously there are things you can't do for them: -avoiding red circles(SS) -avoiding rocks fall(UL) -popping some cd during MB or hit by volley/BT(bulo) -having decent numbers there is your decision to disband or kick or leave.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerkWork Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Ultimate comms are coming back in 3.2 to Old OPs and GF is going back down to 8 so we should see more people do all the Ops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan_Vee Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 (edited) Sadly I doubt increasing the amount of Ultimate comms will help the issues pugs are apparently facing with the current content, at least not until they are able to purchase rating 210 gear with them (if ever; please don't move the board again) Hopefully this is an excellent example of the developers identifying a growing gap between sm and hm raiders and their attempt to fix it by ensuring that some degree of skill is required even for sm. What concerns me so much is that there is so much outrage about this. Insisting that the issue is Bioware's and screaming "We don't want to get good!" As such I propose a middle ground. Something I was anticipating with 3.0 and was overjoyed that we didn't get it; sadly it might be just what the community wants. Tactical Operations. Remove 16s in every difficulty. Leave them in for older content (would make it difficult for the Entitys etc) and add another difficulty. Tacticals would be repeatable, so no need to add another lockout to the UI and each boss would only drop a couple of basic comms, and a random Yavin piece, maybe a random Massassi piece off the last boss. Each encounter would come with 3 GSI droids in addition to the group and would fill the roles of Tanks and a healer with pre-scripted behavour to tackle the encounters pretty much flawlessly. Edited March 31, 2015 by Declan_Vee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onegoldpls Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Also I think 16m difficulty should be completely removed due bad game perfomance on most hardware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Island_Jedi Posted April 1, 2015 Author Share Posted April 1, 2015 Sadly I doubt increasing the amount of Ultimate comms will help the issues pugs are apparently facing with the current content, at least not until they are able to purchase rating 210 gear with them (if ever; please don't move the board again) Hopefully this is an excellent example of the developers identifying a growing gap between sm and hm raiders and their attempt to fix it by ensuring that some degree of skill is required even for sm. What concerns me so much is that there is so much outrage about this. Insisting that the issue is Bioware's and screaming "We don't want to get good!" As such I propose a middle ground. Something I was anticipating with 3.0 and was overjoyed that we didn't get it; sadly it might be just what the community wants. Tactical Operations. Remove 16s in every difficulty. Leave them in for older content (would make it difficult for the Entitys etc) and add another difficulty. Tacticals would be repeatable, so no need to add another lockout to the UI and each boss would only drop a couple of basic comms, and a random Yavin piece, maybe a random Massassi piece off the last boss. Each encounter would come with 3 GSI droids in addition to the group and would fill the roles of Tanks and a healer with pre-scripted behavour to tackle the encounters pretty much flawlessly. Tactical OPS = bad idea Correctly tuned content = freaking brilliant idea Devs making content hard to buy time = poorly skilled devs Game continues as it is = game will die Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirate_Scuba Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Did a 16M PUG of TOS last night, had one wipe on Lurker (cos lots of people got squashed by rocks) but other than that it was smooth and quite painless. Maybe people are just getting better at the content now (and have L2P). I'm happy that the skill level of players has progressed enough for this now and think that maybe the content level is not that unreasonable? Starting to see a lot more regular PUG's forming for the 60 ops now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan_Vee Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 (edited) Tactical OPS = bad idea Correctly tuned content = freaking brilliant idea Devs making content hard to buy time = poorly skilled devs Game continues as it is = game will die Content is tuned just fine... The Developers cannot, and should not be developing content tuned around a "casual/terribad" community skill level that's so low Jules Verne wrote about it in Journey to the Center of the Earth. As I see it Tac Ops are the only thing that would be relevant; until people start crying that even those are too hard. Edited April 1, 2015 by Declan_Vee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerkWork Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 (edited) Shamelessly quoting myself from another thread I think the main culprit here is that content isn't coming as fast as people want it. Changing difficulty would give a slight reprieve and allow more people to experience it but it wouldn't make much of a difference until we get entirely new content. How about a Compromise: 4 modes: Story (What you suggested): Drops some basic comms and credits. Normal: Current story mode difficulty and buff the last 2 fights on ToS Hard: Same Nightmare: Same For those who are concerned about lowering the quality of players I do have one idea that I have suggested before: To enter the 3 other modes you have to pass a 2 challenges for each roll similar to the Raptus tests. Heals could have a healing challenge tailored to the avg outgoing dmg in that level and a another test to use cleanse and other abilities. DPS would have to pass a DPS check suitable for that difficulty and a skills challenge. For tanks a survival one and a oneo test ability to hold threat. Will it make sure everyone is awesome? Probable not but I think a system like this would be beneficial for all in seeing where you stand. Would this be acceptable to others? Story suggested I am referencing was to remove a few mechanics/make them more forgiving and nerf overall dmg and what not. This would silence those who just want to see the story and give everyone more options to fit their play style. I don't mind if they are bad as long as they have somethig to enjoy themselves and not join content they are not suited for. If they want a mode to see the story as they are a master RP'er but not a good raider then knock themselves out. Nerfing rarely solves a problem as you have supporters and dissenters, providing more options does and should satisfy all parties. Edited April 1, 2015 by FerkWork Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Never_Hesitate Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 (edited) Content is tuned just fine... I agree for the most parts. I'm currently on 8/10 HM and it seems fine so far (working on Cora, haven't done Revan yet) Here is my list of things I would change (SM only): Ravagers is fine (except for Coratanni bugs, but that's not a tuning issue) Sword squadrons: - Increase the time between one of the walkers falling and the air strikes and/or - Reduce the air strike dmg Underlurker: - Reduce the melee dmg done by the adds Commanders: - Increase the dmg done by the adds Revan: - Increase the overall dmg done by everything (except for the voids) Edited April 1, 2015 by Never_Hesitate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlrikFassbauer Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 (edited) Content is tuned just fine... The Developers cannot, and should not be developing content tuned around a "casual/terribad" community skill level that's so low Jules Verne wrote about it in Journey to the Center of the Earth. This is similar to the demand of some PvP players that character skill balancing should be balanced around the skill of the best PvP players there are ... Edited April 2, 2015 by AlrikFassbauer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brutal Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 I am a progression raider and can do the SM's in my sleep. I am finding the HM's very rewarding and challenging, but I am also noticing a problem with the current tier of content. The community is not all "hardcore" raiders and I think your casual players are actually what keeps the game primarly funded and viable as a profitable product. I find that the current tier of content is giving progression players like myself the challenge that they want, but as a member of this community I can see how this content has alienated huge swaths of the community. The formula should be very simple, Storymodes = casual players who want to faceroll content and enjoy the social side of game. Hardmodes = progression guilds that are serious about raiding and want a challenge. Nim = content so hard, that very few individuals will ever clear it. I dont understand why you would alienate a huge part of your customer base that are keeping the game alive for the "progressive" players like myself. What we need to understand as a community is that we all need each other to keep this game alive. Making the game more attractive to "progressive" players is an oversight, why? Because you can cater to both groups by making sure your content is tuned for the right audience. Make the storymodes easier, keep the hardmodes as hard as they are now and make the NIM content so hard that clearing it will be a thing of myth and legend. Why not keep both groups happy? Its so simple. The other thing I have a problem with is simply making things hit really hard and giving tight enrages and calling that interesting. I would perfer intricate mechanics that involve the whole raid. I loved the oneshot mechanics of EC, the multilayered mechanics of TFB. SNV was meh, and DF and DP were too easy. I want the Ops to challenge me in interesting ways and not simply be a lesson in not standing in circles. The current content is ok for me, but please fix sm, before the casual players that are a huge part of this game begin leaving more then they already have. Progression players get off your high horses and remember your the minority and while this tier of content is fun for us, its killing the game for many, many other players. Bioware give both aspects of the community what they need and your game will be successful. im a casual player and finde this game got so easy its borring there is no more chelange like it was when Ec came out or flashpoints they are just a joke Lost Island pre nerf was briliant sm for all the players that cant lern to move out of damn circle or area dmg hm for pepole who liked the game to be a bit chelanging but after lerning tac on them they become boring to its not abouth hou dificule is the game mechanics are v easy to lern game is TOO EASY if u ask mebtw new ops on sm can be face rolled by casual players easy back in a day pug grups was more hard core than some of progresion guilds we have in game this days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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