Why the new Operations are threatening to kill the game.

[Island_Jedi]

The OP is not saying dumb-down HM OPs for "bads" can do them, and neither am I. What I believe he is saying, and is also the substance of my argument is that the SM ops should be at a level of difficulty that EVERY single player on the Servers can queue for and enjoy, not just raiders.

 

To the extent that you (all ) are hear squashing the argument of SM ops is very sad. You have your HM ops so what exactly is the problem with scaling down the difficulty of SM OPS? You want a challenge, and you got it but at the same time you are saying that EVERYONE must accept the same challenge or go do dailies instead?

 

I mostly agree with the spirit of what your saying. I think the vast majority of players should be able to get through SM easily. I have a big problem with the UL fight ATM, because its just stupid for sm. My raid group cleared it last week with every DPS at 3.5k, effective HPS was 4k on one healer and 5.5 HPS. Granted we were using four dps, not five and it was a one shot, but it still felt way too challenging for pugs. Our group was like yep 4k EHPS is retarded for sm, when all through ravagers the EHPS was like 1.5 - 2k. Did my group get it done easily -- yes, was the amount of effort required for an SM dumb -- yes.

Edited March 14, 2015 by Island_Jedi

[Island_Jedi]

Alright peace out guys. Canceled my subscription today, hope the game finds that "new customer" they are looking for.

[ChroniKill]

I mostly agree with the spirit of what your saying. I think the vast majority of players should be able to get through SM easily. I have a big problem with the UL fight ATM, because its just stupid for sm. My raid group cleared it last week with every DPS at 3.5k, effective HPS was 4k on one healer and 5.5 HPS. Granted we were using four dps, not five and it was a one shot, but it still felt way too challenging for pugs. Our group was like yep 4k EHPS is retarded for sm, when all through ravagers the EHPS was like 1.5 - 2k. Did my group get it done easily -- yes, was the amount of effort required for an SM dumb -- yes.

 

Agree with this. SM ops should be for the masses. SOR was supposed to allow either single or group content to see whether whole story. What it actually gives is group content to see the story if you're either a pretty good raider or are in a guild running the ops. For someone just doing the story and seeing an operation (potentially for the first time) Sword Squadron and Underlurker need to be toned down. Two simple fixes though - for Sword Squadron increase the delay once one unit goes down and/or reduce the damage dealt, for Underlurker remove devastation. Whilst those are the coordination checks of the raids, they're also the biggest problem pugs face, and an SM raid should be manageable without too much hassle in a pug without voice. Similarly they a vastly harder than any previous tier coordination in SM that I can think of.

[FerkWork]

Agree with this. SM ops should be for the masses. SOR was supposed to allow either single or group content to see whether whole story. What it actually gives is group content to see the story if you're either a pretty good raider or are in a guild running the ops. For someone just doing the story and seeing an operation (potentially for the first time) Sword Squadron and Underlurker need to be toned down. Two simple fixes though - for Sword Squadron increase the delay once one unit goes down and/or reduce the damage dealt, for Underlurker remove devastation. Whilst those are the coordination checks of the raids, they're also the biggest problem pugs face, and an SM raid should be manageable without too much hassle in a pug without voice. Similarly they a vastly harder than any previous tier coordination in SM that I can think of.

 

 

I do want to point out that many guilds (including mine) that aren't top raiders use SM to practice for HM and the removal of mechanics takes away praticr. I think the closer the fights are mechanically between SM and HM the more likely guilds will beat them. I am happy for the increased difficulty for some bosses as it makes them easier to beat in HM. I believe part of the reason Revan is so hard is that many of the mechanics are outright missing from SM. Just my 2 cents.

Edited March 23, 2015 by FerkWork

[ChroniKill]

I do want to point out that many guilds (including mine) that aren't top raiders use SM to practice for HM and the removal of mechanics takes away praticr. I think the closer the fights are mechanically between SM and HM the more likely guilds will beat them. I am happy for the increased difficulty for some bosses as it makes them easier to beat in HM. I believe part of the reason Revan is so hard is that many of the mechanics are outright missing from SM. Just my 2 cents.

 

That's fair. Perhaps just a reduction in the difficulty in that case. Reduced damage on SS and perhaps only 1/2 people needed on the left/right arm of underlurker to allow people some leeway.

[JouerTue]

That's fair. Perhaps just a reduction in the difficulty in that case. Reduced damage on SS and perhaps only 1/2 people needed on the left/right arm of underlurker to allow people some leeway.

 

SS has a fun mechaninc that requires only one person to complete, it's a lot less people with brain compared with other fights ( operator needed a huge 4, council 2-3), so that fight is ok for me..maybe less damage from the soft enrage, but only slightly..and UL i keep supporting the adds life HP reduction since the cross is already easy, i mean any DcD ingame or a smart healer can save your butt from a red one..

 

i must edit since i just noticed:

 

this week 6 successfull ToS sm pugs, first week i can do more tos than ravagers(which is become faceroll)

Edited March 24, 2015 by JouerTue

[ChroniKill]

SS has a fun mechaninc that requires only one person to complete, it's a lot less people with brain compared with other fights ( operator needed a huge 4, council 2-3), so that fight is ok for me..maybe less damage from the soft enrage, but only slightly..and UL i keep supporting the adds life HP reduction since the cross is already easy, i mean any DcD ingame or a smart healer can save your butt from a red one..

 

i must edit since i just noticed:

 

this week 6 successfull ToS sm pugs, first week i can do more tos than ravagers(which is become faceroll)

 

The soft enrage is the only part I'd tone down. For a normal pug/casual raider, the damage in that phase is brutal. Yes it is manageable without too much planning, but it does need some good coordination from the group not to kill too early and wipe the raid.

 

The underlurker cross I think should be made easier in SM. Only to the extent of needing only 2 people on left/right, but that would make the raid much more manageable if someone screws up in a normal pug/casual run. Whilst a good healer can save a group from a red cross, most guilds (just an assumption here) would like these bosses to be challenging, but not such a coordination check that it can easily wipe a group, especially given that this is an alternate way to see the main story.

[SweKaiser]

Only thing that needs fixing on UL is the adds hp pool. Take away 20 000 from each of the adds and the fight will be more manageable even for pugs.

 

And Bulo needs to be toned down abit damage-wise. The fire pit needs to be fixed aswell so people atleast have a chance to avoid it. No point in having a fire burn in the fight if it only does initial damage and then is harmless.

Edited March 24, 2015 by SweKaiser

[Vandriss]

As much as I agree with the OP, this post is also a perfect example of how difficult it is to please a crowd.

 

In many different games people tend to complain how endgame stuff is too easy or 'dumbed down' and here we find the exact opposite.

 

Once again OP, I agree with you, this just sparked to mind when reading it.

[AlrikFassbauer]

In many different games people tend to complain how endgame stuff is too easy or 'dumbed down' and here we find the exact opposite.

 

I disagree very much.

 

All of your memories seem to be wiped by now, because no-one of you is apparingly able to remember all of that talk how much "trash" FPs & OPs had become with the arrival of the last tactical FPs (Manaan, Rakata Prime). People were so much mourning about "lost difficulty" and wanted to cancel their subs if Bioware did nothing against dumbing down FPs & OPs in SWTOR. People got enraged.

 

And they got what they want. And NOW they all talk about FPs & OPs being too hard for casuals.

 

Well done.

[DarknessInLight]

Totally agree with this and the OP. Maybe tune the damage on Bulo a bit down too.

 

Or the Tanks could keep Bulo turned from the raid the entire fight and people could learn to step out of circles. Honestly it's not that hard and I agree about the progressive/casual argument, but at some point, the casuals need to learn what mechanics are and how to use them in a particular encounter. You can't keep "dumbing down" the content or else there won't be a challenge. One of the worst things BW ever did to this game was to nerf Lost Island. 3 years ago, those of us who were here remember using that flashpoint as a "measuring stick" to prove you were ready for Explosive Conflict. I would love to have seen Lost Island and Explosive Conflct to get raised to level 60 content in their original forms, but both were nerfed.

Edited March 24, 2015 by DarknessInLight

[DarknessInLight]

The fire pit needs to be fixed aswell so people atleast have a chance to avoid it.

 

They do. It's called walk out of it.

[Island_Jedi]

They do. It's called walk out of it.

 

I believe he is talking about bulo not torque. so....

[Memo-]

I believe he is talking about bulo not torque. so....

 

If you're moving while it hits you, you won't take damage. And even if it hits you, it only hits when it lands, no ticks from the fire. Keep all your people above 60% in anticipation of the barrel throw, and no prob.

[Island_Jedi]

If you're moving while it hits you, you won't take damage. And even if it hits you, it only hits when it lands, no ticks from the fire. Keep all your people above 60% in anticipation of the barrel throw, and no prob.

 

This is true but the time to move out of it is very small.

[wainot-keel]

As much as I agree with the OP, this post is also a perfect example of how difficult it is to please a crowd.

 

In many different games people tend to complain how endgame stuff is too easy or 'dumbed down' and here we find the exact opposite.

 

Once again OP, I agree with you, this just sparked to mind when reading it.

 

Who, exactly, are these "people" ?

I don't think you can't lump EVERYBODY together like that, with their different tastes, experiences, skills, likes, etc,etc, etc, into the very ambiguous label of "people".

 

"People want chat bubbles rather than new warzones."

"People want more operations and PvP content be damned."

 

Both statements are true. And equally worthless.

[Declan_Vee]

Only thing that needs fixing on UL is the adds hp pool. Take away 20 000 from each of the adds and the fight will be more manageable even for pugs.

 

And Bulo needs to be toned down abit damage-wise. The fire pit needs to be fixed aswell so people atleast have a chance to avoid it. No point in having a fire burn in the fight if it only does initial damage and then is harmless.

 

Underlurker is fine, DPS really need to be tested by something and be made to perform at an adequate level. The req for a group with 4 dps is a joke (in reccomended gear). It puzzles me why I should have to throw out a supplemental 1K on my healer in groups with 5 dps and still see enrage.

 

Bulo is also fine, if you're dying to a barrel through in sm someone is doing something wrong. Either your healers for not keeping people at reasonable level, tanks for cleaving the group, or yourself for standing in a volley or in the way of scatterblast.

[Loc_n_lol]

Underlurker is fine, DPS really need to be tested by something and be made to perform at an adequate level.

 

Then maybe Revan would be a more appropriate place for such a test. Not some rando no-name third boss.

[FerkWork]

Underlurker is fine, DPS really need to be tested by something and be made to perform at an adequate level. The req for a group with 4 dps is a joke (in reccomended gear). It puzzles me why I should have to throw out a supplemental 1K on my healer in groups with 5 dps and still see enrage.

 

Bulo is also fine, if you're dying to a barrel through in sm someone is doing something wrong. Either your healers for not keeping people at reasonable level, tanks for cleaving the group, or yourself for standing in a volley or in the way of scatterblast.

 

If I remember correctly someone did the math and it came out to a measly 2.7 DPS. Lower if you have a tank pumping out lots of DPS too.

 

On Bulo I have no words, was just in a run where I explicitly said do not cross this line or you will be hit by scatter blast. So half the raid decides to surround him from all sides and heals and DPS running into the cleave even as you move it away.... At this point I kind of think that if your that bad then we deserve harder OP's.

Also petition for Raptus style challenges before be able to enter an OP's.

 

Edit: Found the math. Something like 3.2-3.3k DPS with 4 and 2500-2600 with 5.

Edited March 25, 2015 by FerkWork

[Kacynski]

I already did the math somewhere in this thread: the total dps requirement (beating for groups of adds and avoiding enrage) is around 13,600 dps for the whole raid. Subtract 1k for a single tank, it becomes around 2.5k dps if you go in with 5 dps toons, or around 2.9k with 4.

 

2,5k DPS looks reasonable on paper, but most DPS are not able to pull it in the UL fight. People are too busy avoiding stones, positioning for the cross and targeting new adds. The mechanics also cannot be ignored and outhealed so groups fail over and over at this fight.

 

It is overtuned, imho, simple as that. Not for the dps requirement per se, but for the dps requirement under the conditions of harsh mechanics.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Then maybe Revan would be a more appropriate place for such a test. Not some rando no-name third boss.

 

I agree to thatz. It just takes awa from immersion if such an high-prestige boss is easier to defeat than an unnamed nobody.

 

Immersion ? Oh, wait, I'm in the wrong forum, this is about Raiders ...

Edited March 25, 2015 by AlrikFassbauer

[Island_Jedi]

I already did the math somewhere in this thread: the total dps requirement (beating for groups of adds and avoiding enrage) is around 13,600 dps for the whole raid. Subtract 1k for a single tank, it becomes around 2.5k dps if you go in with 5 dps toons, or around 2.9k with 4.

 

2,5k DPS looks reasonable on paper, but most DPS are not able to pull it in the UL fight. People are too busy avoiding stones, positioning for the cross and targeting new adds. The mechanics also cannot be ignored and outhealed so groups fail over and over at this fight.

 

It is overtuned, imho, simple as that. Not for the dps requirement per se, but for the dps requirement under the conditions of harsh mechanics.

 

+1 to that

 

A lot of down time for casters and classes with channels.

[Dark_Mithrandir]

I already did the math somewhere in this thread: the total dps requirement (beating for groups of adds and avoiding enrage) is around 13,600 dps for the whole raid. Subtract 1k for a single tank, it becomes around 2.5k dps if you go in with 5 dps toons, or around 2.9k with 4.

 

2,5k DPS looks reasonable on paper, but most DPS are not able to pull it in the UL fight. People are too busy avoiding stones, positioning for the cross and targeting new adds. The mechanics also cannot be ignored and outhealed so groups fail over and over at this fight.

 

It is overtuned, imho, simple as that. Not for the dps requirement per se, but for the dps requirement under the conditions of harsh mechanics.

 

-1

That dps requirements is not high

You dont even need 2 tanks / 2 heals, its perfectly doable with 1 tank and 1 healer (check speedruns)

 

We talking about ops here even in story mode this is the endgame. Everyone here have done 60 levels and should know how to play a little bit his class at this point.

 

Want to enjoy history without knowing how-to-play? watch youtube

Edited March 26, 2015 by Dark_Mithrandir

[Kacynski]

-1

That dps requirements is not high

You dont even need 2 tanks / 2 heals, its perfectly doable with 1 tank and 1 healer (check speedruns)

 

We talking about ops here even in story mode this is the endgame. Everyone here have done 60 levels and should know how to play a little bit his class at this point.

 

Want to enjoy history without knowing how-to-play? watch youtube

 

Look, I don't have any trouble to down UL with my raidgroup. We know what to do and our DPS put out high enough numbers.

 

But I still think the UL is overtuned if I look at many of my guild members. With all other OPs so far, including Ravagers now and DF, DP when they were released we never had any problem to bring our not-so-apt at raiding guildies for a ride. Someone new and freshly 55 or 60? No problem, come along for the ride - as long as it is not ToS.

We can get 2 or 3 newcomers through Ravagers, no problem. We could get 2 or 3 newcomers through Palace and Fortress, no problem (even before everybody had 180s comm gear).

With ToS I have to tell any new one: "Sorry, we can't bring you with us. ToS is invitation only, we can't afford to bring newcomers" ... and that majorly sucks. I don't like to tell my friends in the guild that they can't come with us. These are players that are far from "I want everything on a silver platter" but they are casual and well, they struggle with movement and raid awareness and keeping up dps.

 

ToS is the first OP I feel that excludes a lot of players. People who like the game, who like to play their class and like to raid once or twice a week with their guild. It's not about people like me or many others in this thread that have the motivation to train and advance their "gaming skills" to do ToS easily (at least in SM). It's about the majority that makes up SWTORs population that are excluded by a stupidly overtuned encounter.

[Dark_Mithrandir]

Look, I don't have any trouble to down UL with my raidgroup. We know what to do and our DPS put out high enough numbers.

 

But I still think the UL is overtuned if I look at many of my guild members. With all other OPs so far, including Ravagers now and DF, DP when they were released we never had any problem to bring our not-so-apt at raiding guildies for a ride. Someone new and freshly 55 or 60? No problem, come along for the ride - as long as it is not ToS.

We can get 2 or 3 newcomers through Ravagers, no problem. We could get 2 or 3 newcomers through Palace and Fortress, no problem (even before everybody had 180s comm gear).

With ToS I have to tell any new one: "Sorry, we can't bring you with us. ToS is invitation only, we can't afford to bring newcomers" ... and that majorly sucks. I don't like to tell my friends in the guild that they can't come with us. These are players that are far from "I want everything on a silver platter" but they are casual and well, they struggle with movement and raid awareness and keeping up dps.

 

ToS is the first OP I feel that excludes a lot of players. People who like the game, who like to play their class and like to raid once or twice a week with their guild. It's not about people like me or many others in this thread that have the motivation to train and advance their "gaming skills" to do ToS easily (at least in SM). It's about the majority that makes up SWTORs population that are excluded by a stupidly overtuned encounter.

 

While i can understand your point i've always felt that this way of thinking its what helps to strength the whole concept of:

- If people fails at something its because that thing is too hard and it should be easier

Instead of:

- If people fails at something they should work harder

 

Obviously the key is to find a mix between both.

In my personal experience when something is too easy then most of the time its not fun either.

 

That said they will nerf this fight at some point (because of better gear avaiable or a direct nerf of the fight). Some people will enjoy it after nerf, some others will stop doing that ops because it will not be fun anymore.