Why the new Operations are threatening to kill the game.

[psikofunkster]

These new operations need to last until next December, do you know how much time that is? Personally im tired of the same formula, i've been playing this game since beginning of year 2012, i raised a new toon up to level 60 last November and i'm pretty much done with this game. Guess im gonna play tomb raider legend now. Edited March 2, 2015 by psikofunkster

[Nebdar]

thanks for reading JouerTue

Shwarzchild

I think they are testing the helpfull AI scripting and.... the Jakaro in Legacy of Rakata is the first try. then you have an GSI Droid and finally 7 AI in Mini OPS.. so i think there must be the reason behind this actions, otherwise they should have done the regular FP and OPS without uncontrollable friendly AI's

If they can script Boss fight they can make antyscript Anti Boss ops-friendly AI companion 's

[AlrikFassbauer]

I actually undergear myself in a way so I can keep the old set bonus.

 

You do NOT get kicked because of that ???

[dscount]

I Agree with OP on this one. Bioware - DROP the DPS/Damage to a more realistic amount in SM's please.

 

While I love doing SM's to help folks get gear I think they have been PUG killers since launch. I'd love to see the community team jump into a PUG run of non-progression guilded players. (Hint: You won't get past SS or Bulo)

 

Bioware did a great job setting up the HM's as they are awesome fun and hard work, but did a TERRIBLE job scaling the SM's even more so with 16m versions (SM/HM). You should not have ONE SHOT mechanics in SM's.. PERIOD. Every instance of the SM should be toned down dramatically.

 

When "ACHIEVEMENT" Links are required in PUG runs you know you have a problem. I myself cleared most the SM content with several guilds the first week, but with mostly progressions players. Not everyone is in a progression guild and shouldn't have to be in order to clear SM content.

[Shwarzchild]

You do NOT get kicked because of that ???

 

Why would I get kicked for keeping the old set bonus? It's by far the most useful? 15 percent boost to nanotech? I just switched out two 198 comm armorings for two 180. Crossing my fingers it'll be 186 at some point soon. Which reminds me if anyone on here is on Pot5 and wants to run NiM Dp or NiM DF let me know.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Shwarzchild

[FerkWork]

I Agree with OP on this one. Bioware - DROP the DPS/Damage to a more realistic amount in SM's please.

 

While I love doing SM's to help folks get gear I think they have been PUG killers since launch. I'd love to see the community team jump into a PUG run of non-progression guilded players. (Hint: You won't get past SS or Bulo)

 

Bioware did a great job setting up the HM's as they are awesome fun and hard work, but did a TERRIBLE job scaling the SM's even more so with 16m versions (SM/HM). You should not have ONE SHOT mechanics in SM's.. PERIOD. Every instance of the SM should be toned down dramatically.

 

When "ACHIEVEMENT" Links are required in PUG runs you know you have a problem. I myself cleared most the SM content with several guilds the first week, but with mostly progressions players. Not everyone is in a progression guild and shouldn't have to be in order to clear SM content.

 

Pug runs of competent players can clear it who listen. I have done it with people who never did it before so your argument is invalid. You are like the Op confusing casual pugs with baddies who bad (as in refuse to listen). As for pug killers it's not much different than when 2.0 came out, also anything involving a level of skill kills terribads. While 16 has a few issues with scaling (like Torques HP) non are deal breakers. As for Achievement links, I'm on JC and have seen only 3 people in my entire ask for achieves. All 3 the person lacked the achievement and was trying to get carried into HM. Only thing people ask for are know fights (you learn fights in guild not pugs) and occasionally TS/Vent. I've done Ravagers on 16 several times without voice chat (with a Mara no less). As for one shots nor on SM, lol they have always been there. EC minefield, Droids in DF, Brontes Lightening hands, Calyphaus failing a phase, Styrak in SnV. And Idc about your "Elitism" as weight to your argument it's not.

 

TLDR: Anyone with a brain and a modicum of skill can clear the SM's and you don't need a progression guild to clear it, It's 2.0 all over again. Baddies don't deserved to be carried and stop asking for BW to make Ops sleepfest 101. Stop relying on pugs as they bring out crap players. L2P and you shall be fine.

Edited March 3, 2015 by FerkWork

[JouerTue]

When "ACHIEVEMENT" Links are required in PUG runs you know you have a problem. I myself cleared most the SM content with several guilds the first week, but with mostly progressions players. Not everyone is in a progression guild and shouldn't have to be in order to clear SM content.

 

after another two nights pugging tos and ravagers without asking for achievment:

 

ravagers is fine..186 comms gear and some augments is totally sufficient. also the old setbonuses if 186/180 are enough..1600 bonus damage and 1200 bonus healing are enough.

 

obviously undergeard tanks and healers together might put your pug in danger, got 3 pugs clearing and 2 stuck at 4th and 5th boss for lack of heals and then time.

 

temple of sacrifice is doable:

 

1st boss is ok for sm;

 

2nd boss needs one dps/tank knowing how to carry the bomb together with dps decently able to avoid red cyrcles, otherwise you can try with burn U2 to 5% then chain bomb U1;

 

4th/5th are ok for sm..4th is meh boring but still ok and they both should stop horrible players;

 

UNDERLURKER, well it took at least 10 dps leaving and getting replaced and same with 3-4 healers in two prime nighs of tries before doing the kill. which we managed only when the group was mainly composed by raiders and started the burn after 3rd cross.

the most interesting try was when we had all raiders, but on their filthiest alts, with subpar gear. we executed correctly the tactics, all green crosses, all dead adds, but then boss enraged at 40%..

 

i think in general the ops are ok, it's just that boss..having to link achievments to join sm is not optimal for sure and it's not a guartee kill neither, but it's not ok joining ops if you are not able to put out the numbers or cannot fulfill your role..

i think the casual community could use an adds hp pool reduction:

it would leave the mechanic intact, but giving time for the dps to damage a bit more the boss and hide correctly, which means a cleaner kill still following tactics.

Edited March 2, 2015 by JouerTue

[FerkWork]

Why would I get kicked for keeping the old set bonus? It's by far the most useful? 15 percent boost to nanotech? I just switched out two 198 comm armorings for two 180. Crossing my fingers it'll be 186 at some point soon. Which reminds me if anyone on here is on Pot5 and wants to run NiM Dp or NiM DF let me know.

 

It's funny some of the old set bonuses are better than the new ones. If you were on JC I would run. Did my first NiM DF (My old guild never ran it) and went 3/5 before we got to sleepy lol. Do love the armor from it.

[soowonlee]

You come across a tad elitest calling people "Baddies", but its those exact players (Mostly like to play causal) that contribute financially to this game. So YES, BW does need to cater to the majority of the player base that funds this game if they want to keep it going at least. Should allow people to clear a group finder based 16m SM operation w/o VOIP and today's version of 16m SM does not.

 

My suspicion is that this claim is false. There are three types of players in this game: 1. Players who don't do ops 2. Players who do ops and are frustrated by the difficulty 3. Players who do ops and enjoy the difficulty.

 

From a financial standpoint, group 1 is not relevant to this discussion, since they are not affected. Group 3 is probably larger than group 2. Why do I think this? Well, EA is funding this game, and I'm sure they are very interested in who is actually paying to play. Bioware going in this direction seems to indicate that they believe they will make more money this way, and that would only be the case if group 3 is larger, or potentially larger, than group 2.

[dscount]

Sorry Bart.. I doubt the majority is enjoying the harder content. Most MMO's today are making everything more "Casual" friendly and I've have to lean on those players that like HM to a degree, but struggle to clear beyond 1st or 2nd boss. (Look at most folks on fleet - that's how I'm get a good gauge)

 

I love the hard stuff myself, but even some of the stuff in SM makes me scratch my head as to WHY it's in place for PUG slated operations. It's WAY cool that even tiers later NIM stuff still gives you a decent challenge on some fights.

[AshlaBoga]

It's funny some of the old set bonuses are better than the new ones. If you were on JC I would run. Did my first NiM DF (My old guild never ran it) and went 3/5 before we got to sleepy lol. Do love the armor from it.

 

Yeah, but are any of the 2 Piece 186 set bonuses better than having the 6 piece 198 set bonus and increased main stat + armor? Certainly not for Mara's or Sorcs in terms of dps or heals.

[soowonlee]

Sorry Bart.. I doubt the majority is enjoying the harder content.

 

What do you mean by "majority?" If by "majority" you mean that greater than 50% of subscribed players both do operations AND are not enjoying operations, then I am highly skeptical of your claim. Do you have any evidence to back your assertion?

[FerkWork]

What do you mean by "majority?" If by "majority" you mean that greater than 50% of subscribed players both do operations AND are not enjoying operations, then I am highly skeptical of your claim. Do you have any evidence to back your assertion?

 

I'm enjoying the difficulty of HM and so is my guild. Pugged another Ravagers SM today with several people who hadn't done it before. Once they understood what to do we were able to complete all the bosses. They really enjoyed the fights and it was a great time overal That's the key difference, they asked for help and learned. However several people want to go back to Fall with mind numbing tank and spanks with overgeared people having no fun as all mechanics were ignored. Those asking for handouts are having serious first world problems.

 

Side note: As a lore junky, there really isn't much story that people are missing by not doing these new ops. Ravagers still makes no sense to me and ToS is just one option among two for the story line.

Edited March 3, 2015 by FerkWork

[Kacynski]

What do you mean by "majority?" If by "majority" you mean that greater than 50% of subscribed players both do operations AND are not enjoying operations, then I am highly skeptical of your claim. Do you have any evidence to back your assertion?

 

We have no hard numbers on this, but I believe it to be so. This purely my assumption, take it as you will but my line of thought goes like this:

 

Players who can do the first boss in Bloodhunt HM should also be able to do Underlurker. I think the fights mechanics are similar and both require competent dps as well as good healers. It's also vice versa, if one can do UL it should also be possible to do BH HM.

But at least on my server whenever BH pops people bail out immediately, no one is even attempting to try it via GF. This I think is a strong indication that HM BH in its current form is not pug'able. I never pug ToS (we have a guild raid), but all reports here on the forums about pug'ing ToS follow the same pattern: major problems at SS and desaster at UL. Groups disband or rotated over and over until a fair share of experiences raiders is there that can tackle it. The only way I even hear PuG anouncements for ToS on fleet are: "LFM ToS (3rd boss can be bypassed)"

 

This leads me to the conclusion that currently neither BH HM nor ToS are pug'able in the sense that a random group, composed via the groupfinder, has a fair chance to beat it.

 

I do not think that 50% of subscribers are not enjoying operations, but I suspect that far less than 50% os subscribers have a chance to beat HM BH or SM UL currently when grouped for it randomly.

And - again this is only my gut feeling and assumption - I do indeed think that the vast majority of people that keep this game funded have not yet completed ToS 5/5 on SM and I understand the feeling of frustration many people express here on the forums that there is a SM OP's that currently requires HM competence to be completed successfully.

 

We (the playerbase) do not have any metrics what this situation means for the game in player numbers, subscriber numbers and CM sales. We can only hope that the increased OP's difficulty is seen as a source of motivation (as expressed by some in this thread) and not as a source of frustration (as also expressed by some in this thread). We only know that both points of view are there.

 

I'm enjoying the difficulty of HM and so is my guild. Pugged another Ravagers SM today with several people who hadn't done it before. Once they understood what to do we were able to complete all the bosses. They really enjoyed the fights and it was a great time overal That's the key difference, they asked for help and learned. However several people want to go back to Fall with mind numbing tank and spanks with overgeared people having no fun as all mechanics were ignored. Those asking for handouts are having serious first world problems. .

 

I think Ravagers are at a good spot currently. I was first of the opinion that Bulo also could need a bit of toning down, but after having made a few similar experiences like you describe above, I think it is completely fine. My gripe is with Sword Squadron and Underlurker which I think are out of reach for the average PuG.

 

E: added a few line trying to make more clear what I wanted to say

Edited March 3, 2015 by Kacynski

[Pirate_Scuba]

Yeah, but are any of the 2 Piece 186 set bonuses better than having the 6 piece 198 set bonus and increased main stat + armor? Certainly not for Mara's or Sorcs in terms of dps or heals.

 

There are a number of specs where an old/new set bonus combo is potentially superior (Operatives/Scoundrel (heal) 192 - 4, 186 - 2, Sorcs(not sage ~ broken) (dps) 192 - 2, 186 - 4, Shadow/Assassin (tank) 192 - 2 , 186 - 4)

[Island_Jedi]

If the "bad" players cannot do the ops and leave are we better off? Do we need they're money?

[Shwarzchild]

Yeah, but are any of the 2 Piece 186 set bonuses better than having the 6 piece 198 set bonus and increased main stat + armor? Certainly not for Mara's or Sorcs in terms of dps or heals.

 

At least for the operative it's recommended that you keep the 180 (hardmode)/ 186 (nightmare) two piece set bonus and use the revanite set bonus for the rest. I don't play those other classes you mentioned so I couldn't tell you anything about what they could or should be doing. Per the guide on dulfy:

 

Making the change between the old set bonuses and the new can be jarring, in particular for the 4-set differences. As a general rule, utilizing the 192/198 full 6 piece set bonus will offer the highest potential damage output, while utilizing the 186 full 4 piece set bonus and the 192/198 2 piece will offer the greatest average damage, offering more consistent numbers. As you convert your 192 pieces to 198, the differences become smaller, in which case you should fully transition to the new 6 piece.

 

So there is still a place for the old 186 set bonus for DPS. So if you're in a mainly 192 set bonus environment you actually probably want to go with the 186 4 piece.

[Sunzizwei]

We have no hard numbers on this, but I believe it to be so. This purely my assumption,

...

I do indeed think that the vast majority of people that keep this game funded have not yet completed ToS 5/5 on SM

 

I think you're right on this.

 

Eric Musco on Operation Victory Tournament:

 

"Only a fraction of the players who are in Ops at 60 are in ToS and so we wanted to make sure the first round was accessible to as many people as possible."

[LordCJK]

The formula should be very simple,

Storymodes = casual players who want to faceroll content and enjoy the social side of game.

Hardmodes = progression guilds that are serious about raiding and want a challenge.

Nim = content so hard, that very few individuals will ever clear it.

Hmm. And what about casual raiders? And people who want some minor challenge?

Besides, how do you enjoy ops if u faceroll it?

Hardmodes( at least the latest ) are hard and not for everyone, that's how it should be. However, SM are accessible for any player who CAN play his class and is able to invest some time into gathering a decent group or simply joining a guild. Of course, the most safe way to go through new SMs saving you a lot of time is to join a casual guild which would do these raids on a weekly basis.

If you want to faceroll content in greens not bothering into investing some time into learning your rotation, DCD and other skills, then guess what? Raids are simply not for you. You can enjoy other content.

Secondly, do not mistake casual players and awful players who basically want free endgame loot and achievements rather than fun and some challenge.

[Shwarzchild]

I was thinking, which generally I'll admit is a bad bad thing for anyone and everyone, that my question wouldn't be if the new content is killing the game, but if we're just jumping to conclusions way too early. The content has been out what 4 months? Maybe 4 months is too much time, but I'm not sure. I feel like (with no supporting evidence and completely relying on subjectivity) that a lost of the ops, if not all of them, don't really start opening up to the pug community until like 6-8 months after their release.

[FerkWork]

What is needed for Ops? According to the GF info bar when you however over Operations it says something to the this effect: "Operations are complex challenging missions requiring 8 or 16 people requiring group coordination." So that's why some fail. Also, why is pug groups the standard to measure ops against? Pug runs are some of most boring and is like get in get out dont make eye contact situation. If people want to play that way that's cool but as my first sentence says prepared to bring coordination and skill.

 

Reasons why people fail on Lurker and Sword Squadron according to my own observations:

 

Sword Squadron: Ironicaly while we bemoan DPS for being circle eaters as a tank I usually see wipes due to the tank eating rapid fire or tanking on top of the boss and dropping rapid fire on me lee and bomb runner

Once these are down just run first four bombs on walker at each interval then swap to 2 and burn to 10, run last bomb and split DPS. Simple as pie

 

Lurker: DPS and slight heals check. If you got PTs you can cheese the rage storm and use the time to burn boss. For the adds and DPS, have a member bring DPS gear and respec to DPS. 2.7k DPS only needed so a decent rotation will due fine. Heck, besides Sword Squadron only 1 tank is needed for the rest of the bosses on SM.

 

Here's some words of wisdom: it's not the destination that matters but the journey

Edited March 3, 2015 by FerkWork

[Jojomagro]

The ops are not hard, imo, when the player knows how to play their role and execute their rotation. The SM mechanics that are indifferent to class/role are the same in all ops (don't stand in telegraphs, dont stand in cleave, group for AoE heals when possible.)

 

The difficulty people are having with these ops is that they are indeed a step up from lvl 55 SM. Specifically, numbers required to clear the content. You cant spam your free move and burn all your resources on the big heal/attack anymore. You have to know what procs what, what reduces resource cost on what, what guarantees an auto crit.

 

I get people want to faceroll these ops for the storyline, but Bioware is taking a step up and requiring you to think and make you work for the story this time. Imo, this adds to the immersion since you can't just raid with one hand and be on your phone with another.

 

tl;dr: as nice as I can say it, l2p.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Jojomagro

[Kiesu]

The other thing I have a problem with is simply making things hit really hard and giving tight enrages and calling that interesting. I would perfer intricate mechanics that involve the whole raid. I want the Ops to challenge me in interesting ways and not simply be a lesson in not standing in circles.

 

Amen.

[dscount]

What is needed for Ops? According to the GF info bar when you however over Operations it says something to the this effect: "Operations are complex challenging missions requiring 8 or 16 people requiring group coordination." So that's why some fail. Also, why is pug groups the standard to measure ops against? Pug runs are some of most boring and is like get in get out dont make eye contact situation. If people want to play that way that's cool but as my first sentence says prepared to bring coordination and skill.

 

Reasons why people fail on Lurker and Sword Squadron according to my own observations:

 

Sword Squadron: Ironicaly while we bemoan DPS for being circle eaters as a tank I usually see wipes due to the tank eating rapid fire or tanking on top of the boss and dropping rapid fire on me lee and bomb runner

Once these are down just run first four bombs on walker at each interval then swap to 2 and burn to 10, run last bomb and split DPS. Simple as pie

 

Lurker: DPS and slight heals check. If you got PTs you can cheese the rage storm and use the time to burn boss. For the adds and DPS, have a member bring DPS gear and respec to DPS. 2.7k DPS only needed so a decent rotation will due fine. Heck, besides Sword Squadron only 1 tank is needed for the rest of the bosses on SM.

 

That's the main point being made. For SM's you shouldn't have to do this...

 

Lurker - For SM Content you shouldn't have to class stack or bring a different comp to Cheese a mechanic. Not a lot of tanks (PUG) have two sets of gear and it's GF for pete sake.

[lightSaberAddiCt]

That's the main point being made. For SM's you shouldn't have to do this...

 

Lurker - For SM Content you shouldn't have to class stack or bring a different comp to Cheese a mechanic. Not a lot of tanks (PUG) have two sets of gear and it's GF for pete sake.

 

Honestly the worst thing BW could do is add OPs to the GF in the first place...