Message to Bioware and Community

[TopAceOfEarth]

[...]

For example, where in the SW Universe we find pirates like on Rishi? In this universe we had smugglers, Hutta, Exchange but where is the mention of any pirates? What is this? From where? Who can answer with certainty that this is part of the lore? My friends, who are big SW Universe fans, cannot attest to this concept.

[...]

 

 

Star Wars Wookiepedia Entry for Pirate: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Pirate

Feel free to link your lore friends the 12 common insignias of Pirate bands from Star Wars as well as the 60 appearances as well as stated sources for them.

 

Or maybe look at the ingame lore entry for Black Sun, if you have not picked it up yet it's on Coruscant @ X:-3310, Y:-149

[Max_Killjoy]

thats how life works... drug dealer with $1,000 in cash when arrested will forfeit all $1000 regardless if any of it was directly related to the sale or not.

 

OP claims to have lost a schematic gained from purchase via comms that were gotten from the exploit. Fruit from the forbidden tree. Any comms, items, or related items are subject to deletion. I didn't need to buy chest since I got multiple items from the exploit instead i used the comms to purchase offhand weapon. Well off hand weapon is fruit from the forbidden tree. If it was gained PRIOR to exploitation you might have a case, but otherwise you wont have anything to stand on.

 

And you're actually OK with people losing things unrelated to the "crime" as long as they're "punished"?

 

Wow. I guess I never knew how many people were short-sighted, bloody-minded, and foolish in this world.

Edited February 16, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[Max_Killjoy]

Star Wars Wookiepedia Entry for Pirate: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Pirate

Feel free to link your lore friends the 12 common insignias of Pirate bands from Star Wars as well as the 60 appearances as well as stated sources for them.

 

Or maybe look at the ingame lore entry for Black Sun, if you have not picked it up yet it's on Coruscant @ X:-3310, Y:-149

 

I think he's talking specifically about "ARRRRR, pirates, matey!" in tricorn hats and tall leather boots... and regardless of anything else, the introduction of "Pirates of the Rishibean" was immensely silly.

Edited February 16, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[Joonbeams]

So you're perfectly fine with the OP losing a schematic he didn't get through the exploit, because he exploited the bug?

 

If someone had a normal job, and also robbed ATMs on the side, but his house and car were bought with money from his normal job, and all the ATM loot went into an overseas shelter, would you be OK with the government seizing his house and car?

 

Yes. I'm perfectly 100% fine with this. Not sure what's so hard to understand. Either put the burden on BW to do a thorough, detailed investigation and evidentiary hearing for every single instance of cheating (a pure waste of time and resources) or have BW take the efficient approach even if it means some cheaters get hit harder? Um yeah, I go with the latter every single time. Don't cheat. Full stop.

 

And your analogy (unwittingly) highlights really what's so bad and complex about cheating. So you say this guy buys his house and car with money from his "normal job." And the ill gotten loot goes elsewhere. Besides that being a relatively easy situation to resolve (if it was that clear, which it's not at all here), the thief still benefited w/r/t his house and car. Because rather than having his "normal job" money get stretched and pulled like law abiders, he was able to pay his house and car comfortably with his "normal job" money and lock the rest away. Would that we all had this luxury. He only did because he took money from other people and caused those law abiders hardship (and yes robbing ATMs directly and indirectly takes money from other people). So yes, even there were it's more clear, I would have no problem if the punishment extended to his house and car because in all likelihood it would have been a lot harder for him to have those things if he wasn't a two-bit thief.

[Max_Killjoy]

Yes. I'm perfectly 100% fine with this. Not sure what's so hard to understand. Either put the burden on BW to do a thorough, detailed investigation and evidentiary hearing for every single instance of cheating (a pure waste of time and resources) or have BW take the efficient approach even if it means some cheaters get hit harder? Um yeah, I go with the latter every single time. Don't cheat. Full stop.

 

And your analogy (unwittingly) highlights really what's so bad and complex about cheating. So you say this guy buys his house and car with money from his "normal job." And the ill gotten loot goes elsewhere. Besides that being a relatively easy situation to resolve (if it was that clear, which it's not at all here), the thief still benefited w/r/t his house and car. Because rather than having his "normal job" money get stretched and pulled like law abiders, he was able to pay his house and car comfortably with his "normal job" money and lock the rest away. Would that we all had this luxury. He only did because he took money from other people and caused those law abiders hardship (and yes robbing ATMs directly and indirectly takes money from other people). So yes, even there were it's more clear, I would have no problem if the punishment extended to his house and car because in all likelihood it would have been a lot harder for him to have those things if he wasn't a two-bit thief.

 

You're confusing an analogy that applies to the punishment side, with something that applies to the harm side.

 

So what did the "cheater" take from you, or make harder for you, or deprive you of, that makes this at all a valid comparison in terms of the harm done to you? So far, no one has posted a single example of any actual harm done.

 

It's a shame one of you who doesn't care as long as "cheaters pay" didn't get caught up in the dragnet. Meanwhile, Blackstone is rolling in his grave.

Edited February 16, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[DOHboy]

And you're actually OK with people losing things unrelated to the "crime" as long as they're "punished"?

 

Wow. I guess I never knew how many people were short-sighted, bloody-minded, and foolish in this world.

 

would that person have gotten the schematic without comms gained from the exploit? would the schematic been RE'd is already didn't have lots of illegal gotten mods/comms? If I have a shelf full of items some stolen and some not, it is on ME to prove which items were/weren't stolen. At a minimum everything will be taken and sorted out later.

 

If OP claims some of that which was taken was mistaken, and can prove that none of the comms used were used to purchase items (hint, can't since they all go into a large pool). Or that credits used to remove said mod were not gained from the exploit (hint, you can't do this either). At that point, you can not prove that the schematic was gotten by legitimate means when illegally gained items were used to either purchase, or extract items to RE.

[JPryde]

Max, may I ask, in which country you live? I might want to relocate there, in case I ever want to become criminal.

 

When you are sentenced to a monetary fine, that fine is almost always not related to the money you gained by your crime... at least not where I live. If you for example use the sub or bus in my hometown without a ticket and you get caught, you pay roughly 30 times the single ticket price. If you would just need to pay the price for the ticket, that you did not carry when you had to, why would anyone ever buy a ticket?

 

If Bioware had decided, that it would be a reasonable punishment to knock down every purple mod of the cheaters down to the green versions of it, stripping all set bonus... that would still be absolutely their right as a punishment and even if all of that was legally gained... it is their possession and the whole account pays for the players sin.

 

Or do you also believe, when one char of an account is cheating, the other chars of the account should be treated like innocents, even if the one char is banned?

[Joonbeams]

You're confusing an analogy that applies to the punishment side, with something that applies to the harm side.

 

So what did the "cheater" take from you, or make harder for you, or deprive you of, that makes this at all a valid comparison in terms of the harm done to you? So far, no one has posted a single example of any actual harm done.

 

It's a shame one of you who doesn't care as long as "cheaters pay" didn't get caught up in the dragnet. Meanwhile, Blackstone is rolling in his grave.

 

So much "confusion" and moving goalposts with you. When you say "confusing" punishment side with the harm side, it's like, SMH, um what??? Stop and look at what you are saying; it will help you. Look, the core point here is that BW has to take the swift and efficient route here - so that results in collateral damage. Full stop. No problem with that. I don't want them wasting their time with cheaters trying to make the punishment perfect. Until you address a reasonable, alternative approach, there is nothing left to attack here.

 

But again to your broader point, you still don't get it. Take the schematics, for example. Let's say in some cases they really were gotten without the exploit. We know, FOR A FACT, that in other cases they were gotten from cheaters. For regular folk on the GTN, we have no way of knowing what's what. So we pay the high prices. If we pay the person who "cheated" to get the schematics, that's clear and obvious harm.

 

But what about the cheater who allegedly got the schematic without cheating? We're still harmed. Because that person, by having cheated elsewhere, was able to divert the grind from the place where he/she cheated to dedicating to getting the schematic (allegedly without cheating). So with the same time expenditure, and SOLELY because he/she cheated, the cheater was able to get a faster leg up. So again, we're harmed. And to abstract further, (even though we don't need to), think about how much money it cost BW to process this cheating situation. It's foolish (and naive) to think that cost doesn't eventually get passed down to everyone (CM prices, time not fixing other things, etc.). So, again, there's harm. Makes no difference that it's allegedly BW's own "fault" in the first place.

 

 

Tl; dr - The problem with cheating is that it's NEVER EVER EVER a victimless crime. That's the fallacy you keep operating under. However small, however trivial to you, a cheater is BY DEFINITION taking something that is not theirs. That's never harmless.

[JudasGray]

Frankly - I still don't even know what the "exploit" actually was. I gather it was in the Ravagers - but that's all i got.

 

Don't cheat and you won't have to worry about "sweeping punishment"? I dunno - have a hard time feeling badly for people that cheat and by proxy end up losing things. And I absolutely get the point of "well, if unrelated..." - but it can all be avoided by...not cheating? Seems pretty simple.

[Max_Killjoy]

So much "confusion" and moving goalposts with you. When you say "confusing" punishment side with the harm side, it's like, SMH, um what??? Stop and look at what you are saying; it will help you. Look, the core point here is that BW has to take the swift and efficient route here - so that results in collateral damage. Full stop. No problem with that. I don't want them wasting their time with cheaters trying to make the punishment perfect. Until you address a reasonable, alternative approach, there is nothing left to attack here.

 

But again to your broader point, you still don't get it. Take the schematics, for example. Let's say in some cases they really were gotten without the exploit. We know, FOR A FACT, that in other cases they were gotten from cheaters. For regular folk on the GTN, we have no way of knowing what's what. So we pay the high prices. If we pay the person who "cheated" to get the schematics, that's clear and obvious harm.

 

But what about the cheater who allegedly got the schematic without cheating? We're still harmed. Because that person, by having cheated elsewhere, was able to divert the grind from the place where he/she cheated to dedicating to getting the schematic (allegedly without cheating). So with the same time expenditure, and SOLELY because he/she cheated, the cheater was able to get a faster leg up. So again, we're harmed. And to abstract further, (even though we don't need to), think about how much money it cost BW to process this cheating situation. It's foolish (and naive) to think that cost doesn't eventually get passed down to everyone (CM prices, time not fixing other things, etc.). So, again, there's harm. Makes no difference that it's allegedly BW's own "fault" in the first place.

 

 

Tl; dr - The problem with cheating is that it's NEVER EVER EVER a victimless crime. That's the fallacy you keep operating under. However small, however trivial to you, a cheater is BY DEFINITION taking something that is not theirs. That's never harmless.

 

It's all numbers and pixels in the game. No matter how many are taken, there's still an infinite number of copies. The real-life comparison for the harm side just doesn't work, because in real life, there are only so many cars, or dollars, or whatever, and taking them from someone actually deprives them of it.

 

None of your other examples are actually harmful in any way. So what if someone gets "a leg up"? Big flipping deal. It's not a race. They're not beating you to something. They're not taking something from you, or depriving you of an opportunity. There's no harm in the GTN example, you're paying the listed prices no matter who is behind the sale, it doesn't matter how they got it -- it's 2 million credits for that overprice item mod no matter how the seller got the schematic for it.

 

As for the "swift and efficient route", that's a complete non-starter. Bioware failed to take the swift and efficient route when they knowingly launched a wretchedly broken boss in an op, and let the whole thing go for almost a month before even admitting there was a problem.

[Joonbeams]

It's all numbers and pixels in the game. No matter how many are taken, there's still an infinite number of copies. The real-life comparison for the harm side just doesn't work, because in real life, there are only so many cars, or dollars, or whatever, and taking them from someone actually deprives them of it.

 

None of your other examples are actually harmful in any way. So what if someone gets "a leg up"? Big flipping deal. It's not a race. They're not beating you to something. They're not taking something from you, or depriving you of an opportunity. There's no harm in the GTN example, you're paying the listed prices no matter who is behind the sale, it doesn't matter how they got it -- it's 2 million credits for that overprice item mod no matter how the seller got the schematic for it.

 

As for the "swift and efficient route", that's a complete non-starter. Bioware failed to take the swift and efficient route when they knowingly launched a wretchedly broken boss in an op, and let the whole thing go for almost a month before even admitting there was a problem.

 

Wait, whaaaa? LMAO! So then you agree that there was no harm here by BW if they take away schematics? It's all pixels right? You're the one who introduced the real life examples. Are you even thinking this through???

[Max_Killjoy]

Wait, whaaaa? LMAO! So then you agree that there was no harm here by BW if they take away schematics? It's all pixels right? You're the one who introduced the real life examples. Are you even thinking this through???

 

The difference is, if the schematic didn't come from the exploiting of this bug, then the player put real time and effort into obtaining it, probably considerable effort given how rare the mats are and how random the RE process can be.

 

Bioware doesn't put additional resources into creating individual copies of a schematic, they're infinite once the initial programming is done. No possible number of real exploiters would be capable of taking a single bit of actual effort or time away from Bioware.

 

There seems to be this mistaken impression in these discussions, probably unconscious and based on hardwired thinking from the real world, that the exploiters are taking things off a finite stack, and when Bioware strips those things off the exploiters, they're going back on a stack somewhere to go to players who "deserve" them.

[AlrikFassbauer]

I never got the schematics you complain about.

Because I didn't play that part of the game yet.

Seemingly I was far too slow.

Should I complain now or what ?

[menofhorror]

Well I agree in many points. Overall the content being poured out (flashpoints and so on) has been quality wise by far not as good as the original plashpoints. I will say this though, Manaan was a good fp even for a tactical and even Blood Hunt was fun but the rest...meh.

 

Also at least most of us should now know not to preorder an expansion anymore. I know I won`t (hopefully) and I hope others won`t as well.

[Joonbeams]

The difference is, if the schematic didn't come from the exploiting of this bug, then the player put real time and effort into obtaining it, probably considerable effort given how rare the mats are and how random the RE process can be.

 

Bioware doesn't put additional resources into creating individual copies of a schematic, they're infinite once the initial programming is done. No possible number of real exploiters would be capable of taking a single bit of actual effort or time away from Bioware.

 

There seems to be this mistaken impression in these discussions, probably unconscious and based on hardwired thinking from the real world, that the exploiters are taking things off a finite stack, and when Bioware strips those things off the exploiters, they're going back on a stack somewhere to go to players who "deserve" them.

 

When you say the player put "real effort" in, we've already debunked that. The player was able to take a shortcut not afforded to other players because of cheating elsewhere. You say the "leg up" doesn't matter, when then none of it matters. Or it does matter, in which case it's irrelevant that the "stack" of schematics is "infinite." You can't argue both.

 

This is the mentality of a cheater. They never believe that any harm results from their actions. Or worse, they don't care. But I can say that BW spent time and money dealing with this (and not other things), and that harms us all. And the cheater was able to gear up and sell items (even those allegedly gotten "fairly") faster and thus profit. That's also harm. But a cheater will always rationalize that away as insignificant. Only their own cheating and their own personal gains matter. That's the basic mentality in a nutshell.

 

(And again, it's TOTALLY IRRELVANT that BW caused the problem in the first place. That's like saying the store shouldn't have left the door unlocked before the theft, i.e. "they asked for it."). <<---- Cheater logic.

[GuruVII]

Also, for the people that didn't exploit to get what they deserve Bioware doesn't need to give them anything, they just need to take away from those that don't deserve it.

Reducing the amount of crafters which used exploits to gain schematics benefits the crafter who got them properly (either by selling for a higher price or making it easier to sell) and player/guilds that didn't exploit are not in a considerably better position to do/progress in OPS then the guilds/players who exploited.

 

It also makes the time they spend doing things properly, more worthwhile (just like using the exploit devalued the time of players that didn't exploit) ... and time we can spend playing this game is the only finite in this equation.

 

The difference is, if the schematic didn't come from the exploiting of this bug, then the player put real time and effort into obtaining it, probably considerable effort given how rare the mats are and how random the RE process can be.

While people are innocent until proven guilty, assets are very commonly guilty until proven innocent and since the player cannot show using the exploit didn't help him acquire the schematics (even indirectly) the only right thing to do is to delete the schematic.

 

The OP claims he acquire that schematics with commendations, so the question here is... are those commendations attainable using this exploit? If the answer is yes, then deleting the schematic was the proper course of action.

Edited February 16, 2015 by GuruVII

[Max_Killjoy]

When you say the player put "real effort" in, we've already debunked that. The player was able to take a shortcut not afforded to other players because of cheating elsewhere. You say the "leg up" doesn't matter, when then none of it matters. Or it does matter, in which case it's irrelevant that the "stack" of schematics is "infinite." You can't argue both.

 

Shortcut -- who cares, the game isn't a race, there are no special prizes for getting something first or fastest. As for the rest, no idea what you're getting at.

 

 

This is the mentality of a cheater. They never believe that any harm results from their actions. Or worse, they don't care. But I can say that BW spent time and money dealing with this (and not other things), and that harms us all. And the cheater was able to gear up and sell items (even those allegedly gotten "fairly") faster and thus profit. That's also harm. But a cheater will always rationalize that away as insignificant. Only their own cheating and their own personal gains matter. That's the basic mentality in a nutshell.

 

Gearing up faster -- meaningless. Selling more stuff -- good, more items on the market for other players.

 

Bioware put themselves in the position of having to spend time and effort addressing this through:

1) their own initial ineptitude in letting the bug into the game (said boss is still broken, BTW)

2) their own choice to leave the bug unaddressed for weeks.

3) their own choice to chase down the exploiters when they could have simply ignored the raging nonsense on the forums, spent the effort on fixing the bug, admitted their fault, and moved on.

 

(And again, it's TOTALLY IRRELVANT that BW caused the problem in the first place. That's like saying the store shouldn't have left the door unlocked before the theft, i.e. "they asked for it."). <<---- Cheater logic.

 

This is more like the store owner standing there watching people walk in and out with stuff night after night, and saying "Please stop taking stuff, I'm going to figure out how to turn a key eventually and then after I do that eventually I'm going to call the police and here's what they might do maybe"...

 

Never mind that the "cheaters" didn't actually take anything from Bioware or other players...

[Max_Killjoy]

While people are innocent until proven guilty, assets are very commonly guilty until proven innocent and since the player cannot show using the exploit didn't help him acquire the schematics (even indirectly) the only right thing to do is to delete the schematic.

 

Congratulations, you've just defended civil forfeiture, one of the biggest mistakes made in the justice system of the US.

Edited February 16, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[Joonbeams]

Shortcut -- who cares, the game isn't a race, there are no special prizes for getting something first or fastest. As for the rest, no idea what you're getting at.

 

 

 

 

Gearing up faster -- meaningless. Selling more stuff -- good, more items on the market for other players.

 

Bioware put themselves in the position of having to spend time and effort addressing this through:

1) their own initial ineptitude in letting the bug into the game (said boss is still broken, BTW)

2) their own choice to leave the bug unaddressed for weeks.

3) their own choice to chase down the exploiters when they could have simply ignored the raging nonsense on the forums, spent the effort on fixing the bug, admitted their fault, and moved on.

 

 

 

This is more like the store owner standing there watching people walk in and out with stuff night after night, and saying "Please stop taking stuff, I'm going to figure out how to turn a key eventually and then after I do that eventually I'm going to call the police and here's what they might do maybe"...

 

Never mind that the "cheaters" didn't actually take anything from Bioware or other players...

 

Yep. All meaningless except for what is meaningful to you (see what I did there?).

 

And the store owner example you give? Well /facepalm. I mean it's so clearly how a thief thinks. "It's his own fault for standing there with the door unlocked, so his stuff is now my stuff..."

 

Anyway, we won't get any farther. You clearly condone cheating and I don't. We view the world differently and we won't change eachothers' minds here.

[GuruVII]

No I haven't, since in the US the person doesn't need to be found guilty of anything for their assets to be seized , while in this case the person in question clearly broke the rules (which he/she/it clearly admitted). Edited February 16, 2015 by GuruVII

[Max_Killjoy]

Yep. All meaningless except for what is meaningful to you (see what I did there?).

 

And the store owner example you give? Well /facepalm. I mean it's so clearly how a thief thinks. "It's his own fault for standing there with the door unlocked, so his stuff is now my stuff..."

 

Anyway, we won't get any farther. You clearly condone cheating and I don't. We view the world differently and we won't change eachothers' minds here.

 

In this specific case I neither condone nor condemn it, I simply don't understand the deep-seated need that some have to see it harshly punished, as it was absolutely harmless

 

I utterly reject the idea that it's OK to strip people of items unrelated to the exploit because some people are so hungry to see "someone pay" that they have tunnel vision. I consider the harshest demands for punishment as worse than the exploiting itself, because of what they represent.

Edited February 16, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[Roms]

Agree that the game became unplayable and unsatisfactory. Сomparison of the old with the new content upsets me. And the worst thing is that for the last 2 months I sent more bug reports than in the past three years. Most of those bugs still ingame.

[TUXs]

In this specific case I neither condone nor condemn it, I simply don't understand the deep-seated need that some have to see it harshly punished, as it was absolutely harmless

 

I utterly reject the idea that it's OK to strip people of items unrelated to the exploit because some people are so hungry to see "someone pay" that they have tunnel vision. I consider the harshest demands for punishment as worse than the exploiting itself, because of what they represent.

 

Agreed Max. It's not that I advocate the cheating, it's that I despise the illogical calls for punishment.

[theUndead]

In this specific case I neither condone nor condemn it, I simply don't understand the deep-seated need that some have to see it harshly punished, as it was absolutely harmless

 

I utterly reject the idea that it's OK to strip people of items unrelated to the exploit because some people are so hungry to see "someone pay" that they have tunnel vision. I consider the harshest demands for punishment as worse than the exploiting itself, because of what they represent.

 

It was certainly not harmless. It was an exploit, a method to change the game in a way the devs do not want. As such anyone using said exploit deserved to be punished it's as simple as that. Another thing you mentioned in a previous post that Bioware should have fixed it and moved on, please explain to me what kind of message that sends? I mean, sure they were inept to let it go for so long, however, it was still a cheat and they warned people not to do it.

 

But people did do it and were thus punished. Was some of the punishment over the top? That's debatable and personally I think it was apropriate. But according to you, they should have just ignored it. No sadly management of a MMO does not work that way so in the end I believe that you condone cheating where's i do not.

[Joonbeams]

Agreed Max. It's not that I advocate the cheating, it's that I despise the illogical calls for punishment.

 

Except it's not "illogical." It's the only efficient choice (of bad choices). In short, you have to decide to overpunish or underpunish because it's not realistic to perfectly tease out the issue and calibrate an appropriate, case-specific punishment for each and every case. Until someone articulates a more efficient means that still stomps out ALL the bad actors, I think "overpunishment" makes sense in this case.