UI killing FPS: This should be priority #1 to fix

[Ghisallo]

The Hero Engine that Bioware licensed was winning awards at trade shows in....2006. This is the first game that I know of that was actually published using it. The game it was designed for (but development halted in 2009) had been in development since 1999.

 

As such the engine is not really multi-thread friendly. What is king with this game is not the RAM or a top end video card running SLI or XFire. Its how much L2/L3 cache you have. I have known people who have replaced an i5 with more cache for a "new" i7 and it was actually a downgrade. While there are likely little things they can do to moderate issues, to really fix it they would either need to completely overhaul or replace the engine. That basically means making a new game. Not going to happen.

Edited March 7, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Cupelixx]

The Hero Engine that Bioware licensed was winning awards at trade shows in....2006. This is the first game that I know of that was actually published using it. The game it was designed for (but development halted in 2009) had been in development since 1999.

 

I'm sure back in 2006 it was interesting technology. But the fact that it was chosen for a game that was supposed to be a AAA title and there were no games that actually used it is mind-boggling. By the same token, that it was chosen over better potential options or creating it in-house.

 

As such the engine is not really multi-thread friendly. What is king with this game is not the RAM or a top end video card running SLI or XFire. Its how much L2/L3 cache you have. I have known people who have replaced an i5 with more cache for a "new" i7 and it was actually a downgrade. While there are likely little things they can do to moderate issues, to really fix it they would either need to completely overhaul or replace the engine. That basically means making a new game. Not going to happen.

 

Not sure about the CPU cache part. But my CPU at close to 5ghz will still hold its own against a current gen CPU. That's why I haven't upgraded yet.

 

What they should do is either pull out the UI changes that were added which caused this problem, or at least give us the option of disabling those changes.

[Papazmurf]

As such the engine is not really multi-thread friendly. What is king with this game is not the RAM or a top end video card running SLI or XFire. Its how much L2/L3 cache you have. I have known people who have replaced an i5 with more cache for a "new" i7 and it was actually a downgrade. While there are likely little things they can do to moderate issues, to really fix it they would either need to completely overhaul or replace the engine. That basically means making a new game. Not going to happen.

 

L2/L3 Cache actually improves a lot of performance in certain games (Flight Simulator X comes to mind). I rarely see anyone talk about the cache of a CPU when speccing out systems though.

 

The CPUs with the most cache are usually the most expensive. Yeah clock speed and new architecture (instructions sets, etc.) come into play, but the all around CPU is important. Most would say you lose value as you go for higher priced CPU, but the reality always is, you get what you pay for.

[dbears]

Cough*

[dbears]

Ran 16m Storymode of both TR/ToS and the first couple bosses on Hardmode. We've got people in our group with top of the line computers and other who are running on old laptops that are 5+ years old. Everyone was having FPS issues except for a few people, and it wasn't the people with the top notch rigs.

 

We tried turning graphics all the way down, shadows and AA off, nameplates off.. I think everything was baseline and everything that could be off was off and people were still having issues.

 

Incredible really.

[Ghisallo]

L2/L3 Cache actually improves a lot of performance in certain games (Flight Simulator X comes to mind). I rarely see anyone talk about the cache of a CPU when speccing out systems though.

 

The CPUs with the most cache are usually the most expensive. Yeah clock speed and new architecture (instructions sets, etc.) come into play, but the all around CPU is important. Most would say you lose value as you go for higher priced CPU, but the reality always is, you get what you pay for.

 

Oh it will sure improve a lot of games. For MMO's built on dated engines it is arguably the most important thing though. Most of the games you buy to play off line (if new) have engines designed with multi-core support. Even WoW does not have full multi-core support. The difference is WoW was designed to be played on a toaster. They have certainly added improvements over the years but ultimately the foundation of the engine is that toaster engine. So you can have a butt ton of RAM, the most kickin video card on the market...but if you only have 4mb of cache you are going to bottle neck, the only difference is you will see green on the fps.

 

IMO, if MMOs are your main thing and you are on a budget, you are better off going "cheap" and get 8 gigs of RAM (but make sure your system can upgrade to 16 later when you have the cash) and a decent mid range video card. Spend the money on a 4th Gen (imo 5th gen is an incremental step) i5 processor with 8mb of Cache (that'll run ya between $250.00 and a little north of 350). You should be able to do 50fps rather consistently with that set up.

 

If you have the money however go for a 4th gen i7 with 12mb. Remember I said "if you have the money" because that'll run ya in the realms of 800 bucks. I couldn't justify it though so I went with an i5.

 

Remember for an MMO in the early to mid 2000s (when these engines were basically designed) 30 fps was considered more than reasonable. Now it is virtually unacceptable.

[JackSwallow]

Well, good to know that i´m not the only one with this f*********g problem. First I thought the f*********g reason for my fps issures is my f*********g pc. My f*********g friend has a better f*********g fps in f*********g Battlegrounds than me. But this is f*********g ridiculous, i have a f*********g i5 with f*********g 4 GB RAM and a f*********g 760 GTX Geforce graphic card and he has a f*********g 4 years old notebook. I have f*********g 60 fps in every f*********g situation, even if i´m standing on the f*********g fleet with 100 of f*********g players, but if i´m entering a f*********g WZ, my f*********g fps drops to 10 - 20 fps which is f*********g f**k unplayable. But if i´m turning off the f*********g UI, this game runs f*********g smoothly as soft as a f*********g baby's f*********g bottom.

I hope Bioware fix it f*********g soon, i´m a f*********g loyal swtor player and i really don´t want to quit this f*********g game cause of this f*********g triviality. But at the moment, Wz makes no f*********g fun with all these f*********g lags.

 

If any Bioware employee read this:

GO F*********G FIX IT OR I CHANGE TO WOW ! AND I F*********G HATE WOW!

 

F***K THIS

Edited March 9, 2015 by JackSwallow

[Cupelixx]

Well, good to know that i´m not the only one with this f*********g problem. First I thought the f*********g reason for my fps issures is my f*********g pc. My f*********g friend has a better f*********g fps in f*********g Battlegrounds than me. But this is f*********g ridiculous, i have a f*********g i5 with f*********g 4 GB RAM and a f*********g 760 GTX Geforce graphic card and he has a f*********g 4 years old notebook. I have f*********g 60 fps in every f*********g situation, even if i´m standing on the f*********g fleet with 100 of f*********g players, but if i´m entering a f*********g WZ, my f*********g fps drops to 10 - 20 fps which is f*********g f**k unplayable. But if i´m turning off the f*********g UI, this game runs f*********g smoothly as soft as a f*********g baby's f*********g bottom.

I hope Bioware fix it f*********g soon, i´m a f*********g loyal swtor player and i really don´t want to quit this f*********g game cause of this f*********g triviality. But at the moment, Wz makes no f*********g fun with all these f*********g lags.

 

If any Bioware employee read this:

GO F*********G FIX IT OR I CHANGE TO WOW ! AND I F*********G HATE WOW!

 

F***K THIS

 

I would hope that the problem eliciting this type of response from people would mean they're not going to stay silent about this. Until then, while I share the anger and desire to make a rage post like this, careful they don't suspend your forum access :/

[Zoom_VI]

Well, good to know that i´m not the only one with this f*********g problem. First I thought the f*********g reason for my fps issures is my f*********g pc. My f*********g friend has a better f*********g fps in f*********g Battlegrounds than me. But this is f*********g ridiculous, i have a f*********g i5 with f*********g 4 GB RAM and a f*********g 760 GTX Geforce graphic card and he has a f*********g 4 years old notebook. I have f*********g 60 fps in every f*********g situation, even if i´m standing on the f*********g fleet with 100 of f*********g players, but if i´m entering a f*********g WZ, my f*********g fps drops to 10 - 20 fps which is f*********g f**k unplayable. But if i´m turning off the f*********g UI, this game runs f*********g smoothly as soft as a f*********g baby's f*********g bottom.

I hope Bioware fix it f*********g soon, i´m a f*********g loyal swtor player and i really don´t want to quit this f*********g game cause of this f*********g triviality. But at the moment, Wz makes no f*********g fun with all these f*********g lags.

 

If any Bioware employee read this:

GO F*********G FIX IT OR I CHANGE TO WOW ! AND I F*********G HATE WOW!

 

F***K THIS

 

Congratulations for setting a forum record for sheer number of astericks in a single post.

 

Unfortunately I have no idea what you wrote.

 

EDIT

4 GB RAM

uhhhh, that's not much RAM at all.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Zoom_VI

[Cupelixx]

L2/L3 Cache actually improves a lot of performance in certain games (Flight Simulator X comes to mind). I rarely see anyone talk about the cache of a CPU when speccing out systems though.

 

I have never seen it asked or recommended. It's not the early 90s where you needed a math co-processor to play a flight sim. Not saying it doesn't matter, but expectations have changed and it's generally "i5 for gaming, i7 for heavy multitasking".

 

"The CPUs with the most cache are usually the most expensive. Yeah clock speed and new architecture (instructions sets, etc.) come into play, but the all around CPU is important. Most would say you lose value as you go for higher priced CPU, but the reality always is, you get what you pay for.

 

There has to be more to it than the amount of cache, or we wouldn't see people on 5820k CPUs having FPS problems everywhere. But yeah, like any PC component you pay the most when buying the best.

[Zoom_VI]

I'm sure back in 2006 it was interesting technology. But the fact that it was chosen for a game that was supposed to be a AAA title and there were no games that actually used it is mind-boggling. By the same token, that it was chosen over better potential options or creating it in-house.

 

You do realize the insane amount of time it takes to develop a AAA mmo title right? If you look around you will notice that most MMOs at launch are using engines that have been out for years.

 

Also the Hero Engine was chosen because it gives the best graphics and ability to do cinematics on a MMO engine, something that bioware definitely values given their emphasis on story.

[Shevyk]

We tried turning graphics all the way down, shadows and AA off, nameplates off.. I think everything was baseline and everything that could be off was off and people were still having issues.

 

Incredible really.

 

All of this mess started about two weekends ago for me after having just returned to the game. It was just after that 3.1a Update. It just started with the frame rate issues, stuttering graphics etc. Tried the above and even more arcane fixes. Nothing seems to correct it. The game was playing fine until two Saturdays ago. Posted this in Customer Service. Perhaps listing my trouble here will help get some attention as well.

[Cupelixx]

You do realize the insane amount of time it takes to develop a AAA mmo title right? If you look around you will notice that most MMOs at launch are using engines that have been out for years.

 

Also the Hero Engine was chosen because it gives the best graphics and ability to do cinematics on a MMO engine, something that bioware definitely values given their emphasis on story.

 

Of course I realize it takes time. That's different than choosing an unproven engine. Best graphics? I'm sorry, but that's laughable. Some of the textures in this game are shockingly bad. I'm talking straight out of an era when 3d graphics were new.

 

For the amount of time they spent developing this game, they could have built their own engine in-house and designed it the way they wanted. It could have been purpose-built and optimized for the type of content they wanted. Instead, they decided to take a product that wasn't even close to finished and tried to cram everything into it with rewrites here and there. Now they have a horrendous boondoggle that the original developers won't even help with.

 

They still could have picked a better middleware engine that had the ability to be easily upgraded and changed over the years.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Cupelixx

[GrimRita]

Stand at the GTN and tab through the pages of items and watch how everything around you stutters - movements of other players.

 

And, if you have your crew skills window open, everytime you buff, it refreshes. The UI is a mess and the key reason why so many players have fps issues. Even with 32GB of ram there's times when the game becomes unplayable.

[dbears]

I'm gonna try something when I get home! What is it? It's a surprise:rak_03: but I wanna see if it has any affect lol.

 

I'll let you all know.

[Rithoma]

You do realize the insane amount of time it takes to develop a AAA mmo title right? If you look around you will notice that most MMOs at launch are using engines that have been out for years.

 

Also the Hero Engine was chosen because it gives the best graphics and ability to do cinematics on a MMO engine, something that bioware definitely values given their emphasis on story.

 

You make a good point. Maybe it was the best engine for cinematics. But I guess it was certainly not the best engine for other things like combat effects. For example, the buff effects. I would love an option to turn those off, like the blue fog for centering. I think these are major FPS killers as well.

 

Also some raid environments are just not well adjusted to the capabilites of the engine. Just think of the sky with moving clouds and lightnings in DF. It's completely unnecessary to have that in a raid environment. Or do there really have to be two waterfalls in ToS in the area of the sword squadron fight? I mean, there are lots of moving AoE circles and explosions effects already, not to mention the screen shaking effects.

 

Using an engine that provides good performance for cinematics is alright. But then the devs should have been smart enough to adjust other effects that the engine is probably not optimized for. They just packed as many sparkling, foggy, flashing effects into combat and combat areas as possible, which is everything but a smart move with that engine.

[benficakungfu]

I play swtor for 1.7years now and to be honest i suffer the most on my sage due to ability delay it almost seems to swallow fractions of seconds and this is very annoying but does not happen all the time, what i can really affirm with confidence is this, since 3.1 environment does NOT render optimally, ex: first boss ravagers, 1st add is invisible, revanite commanders, adds do not render immediatly, underlurker on the contrary renders just fine :s i even get that second where we cant immediatly target the add... Basically this is my main problem.. Regarding ram.. Many times i took the time to check in process tab just how much ram is swtor using and guys i have to say it doesnt cross the 2gb bar... My fps arent great but then again it is not what i would complain about, rather the ability delay for 1 specific class which is my sage.. That and certain environments not rendering properly, on rishi i get a

Secondary(freeze) loading screen ^^ once i reach the bridge near operation entrance. Just sharing my gaming experience.

[JackSwallow]

Congratulations for setting a forum record for sheer number of astericks in a single post.

 

Unfortunately I have no idea what you wrote.

 

uhhhh, that's not much RAM at all.

 

Well, if u don´t have any idea what i wrote, why u know that i have 4 GB RAM ? By the way, swtor requires 2 GB RAM (see on official swtor faq site http://www.swtor.com/info/faq), so i guess 4 GB is enough for a 4 years old game with the same f*****g engine. It doesn´t matter how strong your pc is. I don´t know what Bioware did with the UI since patch 3.0 to make all warzones a f*****g lag party. AND THIS SINCE 4 F*****G MONTHS. NOTHING HAPPENS. I have the right to get enrage, I pay money every month for this game. And yes i know Bioware don´t give a **** if i´m quitting or not. But the truth is , i love this game, i played this since release and i remember of a time with no lags and everything was ok.

 

But some day, one programmer has a great idea: Let´s change something with the UI because every running system needs a change. WHY THE HELL DID U DO THAT? BE AFRAID TO GET NO MONEY FROM BIOWARE IF U DON´T CHANGE SOMETHING?

And they recorded a performance problem with the UI, but who cares? As long as only some people have this problem we don´t really need to change this. Maybe after an half year or so.

Or maybe too bussy to fix? Not enough programers? Or too difficult to change anything with this stoneage engine? I don´t know. I only know if they don´t fix it in the next time, i will change my favorite mmorpg after 4 years and before i do that, I GO TO BIOWARE, PULL MY PANTS DOWN AND S**T THEM ON THE TABLE.

Edited March 11, 2015 by JackSwallow

[GrimRita]

Well, if u don´t have any idea what i wrote, why u know that i have 4 GB RAM ? By the way, swtor requires 2 GB RAM (see on official swtor faq site http://www.swtor.com/info/faq), so i guess 4 GB is enough for a 4 years old game with the same f*****g engine. It doesn´t matter how strong your pc is. I don´t know what Bioware did with the UI since patch 3.0 to make all warzones a f*****g lag party.

 

 

I have 32GB of ram and still get issues. The coding is shoddy. Ability delay is not caused by our PCs!

[JackSwallow]

I would hope that the problem eliciting this type of response from people would mean they're not going to stay silent about this. Until then, while I share the anger and desire to make a rage post like this, careful they don't suspend your forum access :/

 

You totally right. Maybe I got it a little exaggerated. But in my opinion Bioware only read this blog if it´s larger than 20 pages or if someone flames like me. And if they should ban me, I can be sure that they read my post before and understand that they can´t ignore this any more.

Edited March 11, 2015 by JackSwallow

[dbears]

Let's hit that 20 page mark then!

[Cupelixx]

You totally right. Maybe I got it a little exaggerated. But i´m of the opinion that Bioware only read this blog if it´s larger than 20 pages or if someone flames like me. And if they should ban me, I can be sure that they read my post before and understand that they can´t ignore this any more.

 

I think most people posting in the thread feel the way you do. It sure irritates the hell out of me. I just want to PvP and if it wasn't for the terrible UI eating at my performance I could do it.

[dbears]

I refuse to let this die until Bioware tells me to shut the hell up lol.

[Cupelixx]

I refuse to let this die until Bioware tells me to shut the hell up lol.

 

Keep it visible!

[dbears]

Keep it visible!

 

I slipped. Still nothing, huh?