Action For The Ravager's Exploit

[ivanhedgehog]

Yeah, I get what you're saying.

 

Which is why I drew the software piracy analogy. I've seen the same argument there "no one gets hurt", etc.

 

laws are written out, with set standards and penalties. codified

biowarts rules are arbitrary rulings by some yahoo who doesnt have any standards or any checks and balances. there are no fixed penalties and no standards. so the relation ship to morals does not compare. CS is banning people for things that arent even against the rules. if you get a cs guy before his coffee, expect a 3 day forum ban, even if you didnt necessarily do anything wrong.

 

so no, breaking some rule an nameless guy in austin made..is not immoral. proof of incompetence..recreating the exploit from nefra on the 1st boss of TOS. didnt learn the first time? evidently not.

[Khevar]

Player activity would've been the same, and the decision that it's "cheating" and so should be punished takes place AFTER people do it (a lot of people or the noise wouldn't have been made).

While I follow your example, I'm still missing your point.

 

Are you suggesting that exploits shouldn't be against the rules?

[Khevar]

... so the relation ship to morals does not compare.

At no point did I say anything about morals.

 

Did you mean to quote someone else?

[Jacen_Shan]

I love when managers and devs are using more resources to punish expoiters than fixing the current bugs in the game...

What about the underlurker? Still bugged? With 50% of end game ops not playable atm (from a charged expansion), no wonder some took a shortcut to gear their toons.

[GadgetDon]

While I follow your example, I'm still missing your point.

 

Are you suggesting that exploits shouldn't be against the rules?

 

I'm suggesting exploits be considered exploits and punished as exploits once a message posted by Bioware declaring it an exploit. I'm suggesting it because the history of game is filled with things that some called exploits but were declared by Bioware not to be exploits or were fixed without Bioware declaring them as exploits and not doing anything about them.

Edited February 1, 2015 by GadgetDon

[LordArtemis]

Yes, though one could have assumed it was an exploit (which some folks did with the CSM) there was no obligation to consider it an exploit and treat it as such until Bioware made it clear.

 

Once they had, there was no denying it. Now some things are obvious as exploits (like speedhacking) but something like this COULD have been in a grey or acceptable area based on Bioware's decisions. I would say likely not, but I would bet more than one person was surprised at their reaction to the crystal legacy exploit...they decided they would allow it. So anything is possible.

 

In this case they pointed out this was not what was intended, and they would be passing out sanctions.

Edited February 1, 2015 by LordArtemis

[ArchangelLBC]

At no point did I say anything about morals.

 

Did you mean to quote someone else?

 

No but you came into the conversation and started quoting someone long after that person had acknowledged that exploiting was technically against the rules, and therefore cheating because BW says so. What you missed, it seems, is that Max has been arguing against those calling for permanent bans or hugely disproportionate responses because for them this transgression goes beyond a mere breaking of a ToS and was in fact morally wrong. When he says he doesn't attach a sense of wrong to the technical violation of a rule, he's talking about morals.

 

There are things which are wrong (morally) whether there are rules against them or not. There are things which are wrong even when there are rules, or even laws, specifically protecting such actions. I personally do not believe that exploiting the ravager bug was an example of such a wrong. Neither does Max. Those who are calling for permanent suspensions and disproportionate responses do seem to think it was morally wrong and he's asking why they think that way.

 

What it is, fundamentally, is a values dispute. Utilitarians clashing with so-called "fair sportsmen." The sad and destructive part for any community is when some from either extreme begins hunting and shaming the other, both on the forums and in-game. It creates a toxic atmosphere that's only starting to slowly blow over.

 

Neither side fundamentally understands the other, especially "sportsmen" trying to grok utilitarians. It'll never happen.

 

Meanwhile, the pixels on the screen begin to dim in the gas. The elusive quality of "fun" flees the mouse-clicks.

 

Been reading about the different culture that's sprung up around Destiny-- the cuture of community against game designer. People have fun cheesing bosses, and I can only imagine that breeds a healthier, more cohesive community.

 

"Sportsmen" probably have an academically correct philosophical term to apply to them, but I'm too lazy to google-- sorry.

 

 

Let me say as a member of the Destiny community that it is fundamentally a toxic one, though I would argue that this is for reasons that don't have much of anything to do with cheesing bosses. As time has gone on cheesing bosses has been more and more accepted by that community. Those who don't do it usually just call those who do scrubs for not beating things legitimately. Nevertheless ways to cheese bosses are openly discussed on Bungie's own forums, and while Bungie makes an effort to correct those exploits ,often failing to do so and often to the annoyance of the community who think they should spend their time addressing more important issues, in general as long as the cheesing doesn't affect PvP none of the community seems to really care. I'd definitely agree that there is very much a culture of "us vs the developers", with many pointing out flaws, and others responding that people should stop whining.

 

Meanwhile, whatever exploiters did and however they were punished, the damage to the community is way greater than any other harm or benefit to the community and is a direct result of the dev's allowing it to go on for way too long.

 

In the grand scheme of the real world no, few care and it doesn't carry much weight. However, in the gameing world, cheating and exploiting should and will always be a no-no. There may not be a tangible thing to grasp in one scenario but might be one in another.

 

The dilusion you have is thinking just because the cheaters did soemthing that only affects others in a minor way (lets say crafting) it should be seen as a lesser offense. I cannot back that idea at all because in the world of MMO gaming, no cheater is needed. If they can be banned, ban them.

 

 

 

It is wrong because you are cheating the game. Cheating in and of itself is wrong and especially so in online games. It is wrong because it goes against fair play and any integrity in gaming. Doesn't matter if it in your face cheating or some goof that cheats a boss and takes his loot over and over for week without actually doing anything to get it.

 

 

 

BW's rule isn't broken. IT allows them to do what is needed.

Sorry you seem to thinking cheating is a minor offense but I do not. I do not tolerate cheaters. In real life we kick them out. I got no problem with it happening in a game. If cheaters can be banned. Good riddance. Not a single game ever made needs a cheater.

 

 

 

Given that cheating both in the real world and in the gaming world is indeed wrong. That is that.

 

 

 

I understand why cheating and exploiting the game is wrong. I know why it is wrong in both real life and in the world on online gaming. Games have to have a sense of fair play. They have to keep a sense of integrity in that aspect or there can be social repercussions that start to happen as well as business problems. You cannot have a game that allows cheating and exploiting. No matter how you spin cheating to be some lesser problem. It never is.

 

Cheating in games is not good for games. It's not good for the player base and those that cheat need to be removed. As I said, not a single game ever made needs anyone that cheats just for some personal gain or just because they feel like it's no big deal, "who did I harm".

 

I don't know what part of you is more insufferable. Your self-righteous nonsense, your woeful ignorance, or the sheer repetition of the way you express your self-righteous ignorance.

 

Using built in code to circumvent certain mechanics in videogames has been part of the culture for decades. And no one has ever cared, and indeed many have encouraged this, in what are for all intents and purposes PvE settings. People print t-shirts with the konami code.

 

Now you'll point out that those are single player games and this is an MMO. Fair enough, but I'd point out that a sense of fair play is only important in a competitive game. While you can "cheat" in a PvE setting, similar to the Konami code or those Destiny cheeses I mentioned, there isn't any implied sense of fair play. You raid with your team to take down a boss and get gear. Some people try to make this competitive, and many many others don't give a damn. You can't hurt a sense of fair play that doesn't exist and many people don't see why they should care one way or the other how someone else they don't even know came to own their gear.

 

Was it against the rules? Sure was. Did some of those people suffer the consequences of those rules. Well action was taken on their accounts. However just as it's not for us to say what does and does not constitute the rules (the ToS is a completely unilateral document. We agree or don't but we can't negotiate what's in it), it's also not for us to say what actions should be taken.

 

The moral issue you take here is a complete non-starter. It's not a competitive game (or at least not the part affected by this exploit). All the people can cheat is the system in place that they're going against (the E part of PvE). That's always been true in PvE games, whether single or multiplayer, and in general the gaming community either doesn't care or actively encourages that. If you can't understand that then maybe you should leave the community because circumventing intended mechanics is right there at the heart of gaming.

[babanathie]

I'm suggesting exploits be considered exploits and punished as exploits once a message posted by Bioware declaring it an exploit. I'm suggesting it because the history of game is filled with things that some called exploits but were declared by Bioware not to be exploits or were fixed without Bioware declaring them as exploits and not doing anything about them.

 

There is a problem with making a public declaration of an exploit. Once people know about it, the more likely someone is going to just do it. The more people break the rules; the more people have to be "punished". The more punishment that is dealt will result in lower subscriptions, and lower subscriptions will result in a loss in revenue. It depends on how much you can trust the people, in this case the customers, to act in a "honorable" manner as a collective whole. Based on the posts that illustrate a complete lack of understanding of the definition and role of morality, ethics and sportsmanship in games, and it would seem in life, on both sides of this issue, I wouldn't trust us with a public declaration with many exploits in the game.

[gbrumback]

There is a problem with making a public declaration of an exploit. Once people know about it, the more likely someone is going to just do it. The more people break the rules; the more people have to be "punished". The more punishment that is dealt will result in lower subscriptions, and lower subscriptions will result in a loss in revenue. It depends on how much you can trust the people, in this case the customers, to act in a "honorable" manner as a collective whole. Based on the posts that illustrate a complete lack of understanding of the definition and role of morality, ethics and sportsmanship in games, and it would seem in life, on both sides of this issue, I wouldn't trust us with a public declaration with many exploits in the game.

 

However, if the company has a history of passing out harsh punishments for exploiting it would theoretically reduce the number of people exploiting. I'm not saying it would eliminate it, but it would reduce the numbers. Honestly, if BW had passed out permabans for Nefra and any other exploits prior to 3.0 how many people would have exploited Ravagers? If you knew they would ban you for using an exploit would you flush your account away just to get a shiny you could enjoy for maybe a week before your account was deleted by BW? Of course, to be a deterrent, BW needs to have first shown a history of taking harsh actions on exploiters.

[idnewton]

The moral issue you take here is a complete non-starter. It's not a competitive game (or at least not the part affected by this exploit).

 

PvE is competitive when it comes to ops progression leaderboards and DPS leaderboards, both of which were directly affected by the exploit.

 

He's not wrong, you know.

 

 

 

PS:

it's not for us to say what does and does not constitute the rules

LOL. The only reason you say that is because the ToS flies in the face of everything you're trying to prove. Stop trying to prove points you already know are incorrect.

Edited February 1, 2015 by idnewton

[Khevar]

I'm suggesting exploits be considered exploits and punished as exploits once a message posted by Bioware declaring it an exploit.

Ah, I get what you're saying.

 

Personally, I wish that the reaction to exploits were to patch them out the moment they are found.

[ArchangelLBC]

PvE is competitive when it comes to ops progression leaderboards and DPS leaderboards, both of which were directly affected by the exploit.

 

He's not wrong, you know.

 

The people who are already in competition for those progression leaderboards didn't need to exploit for an achievement. Those with the skill to put up top numbers are going to do so, and be in those top progression groups more often than not.

 

Within the DPS leaderboards, it's already accepted that you will use whatever advantage you can get your hands on, intended or not (sup double proccing relic bugs), and those leaderboards always take gear level into account. At worst this expedited the time people wait to start putting in high numbers, and even then you are going to be missing mainhand weapons and 198 relics no matter how lucky you were with the exploit.

 

Additionally, that is a competition, if you can call it that, that the community itself fosters. There are no official BW posts or rewards, or as far as I know any achievements, for being first to kill a boss or being the best at killing a dummy with x amount of health.

 

He is wrong you know. Or if he's not he has yet to make any case for why this reaches the level of some sort of moral infraction.

 

Edit:

LOL. The only reason you say that is because the ToS flies in the face of everything you're trying to prove. Stop trying to prove points you already know are incorrect.

 

On the contrary. I agree that BW has the right to make whatever rules they want and put them in the ToS. I agree that they have the right to enforce those rules how they see fit within the bounds of that ToS. That's all completely black and white. If you violate the ToS you open yourself up to whatever consequences BW deems fit to enforce. People violated the ToS. Some of them had actions taken on their account. The end. If people think that those who exploited should receive much harsher punishment, then sadly that's no more for them to say than it is for those to say who think no punishment at all should have been levied.

 

I am speaking not to the technical violation, which as I said is open and shut, but rather the moral or ethical discussion which is a completely different ball of wax. Is it morally wrong to exploit a bug in order to circumvent certain mechanics in a video game in order to achieve the reward for beating content that had those mechanics in it? I don't think it is.

Edited February 1, 2015 by ArchangelLBC

[idnewton]

The people who are already in competition for those progression leaderboards didn't need to exploit for an achievement. Those with the skill to put up top numbers are going to do so, and be in those top progression groups more often than not.

 

Within the DPS leaderboards, it's already accepted that you will use whatever advantage you can get your hands on, intended or not (sup double proccing relic bugs), and those leaderboards always take gear level into account. At worst this expedited the time people wait to start putting in high numbers, and even then you are going to be missing mainhand weapons and 198 relics no matter how lucky you were with the exploit.

 

Additionally, that is a competition, if you can call it that, that the community itself fosters. There are no official BW posts or rewards, or as far as I know any achievements, for being first to kill a boss or being the best at killing a dummy with x amount of health.

 

He is wrong you know. Or if he's not he has yet to make any case for why this reaches the level of some sort of moral infraction.

 

Edit:

 

 

On the contrary. I agree that BW has the right to make whatever rules they want and put them in the ToS. I agree that they have the right to enforce those rules how they see fit within the bounds of that ToS. That's all completely black and white. If you violate the ToS you open yourself up to whatever consequences BW deems fit to enforce. People violated the ToS. Some of them had actions taken on their account. The end. If people think that those who exploited should receive much harsher punishment, then sadly that's no more for them to say than it is for those to say who think no punishment at all should have been levied.

 

I am speaking not to the technical violation, which as I said is open and shut, but rather the moral or ethical discussion which is a completely different ball of wax. Is it morally wrong to exploit a bug in order to circumvent certain mechanics in a video game in order to achieve the reward for beating content that had those mechanics in it? I don't think it is.

 

Hahahahaha, wow. You clearly don't take part in any kind of progression level PvE, so your opinion about it doesn't matter. I'm not even going to bother explaining how many ways you're wrong, unless you beg really, really hard.

Edited February 1, 2015 by idnewton

[eartharioch]

Or if he's not he has yet to make any case for why this reaches the level of some sort of moral infraction.

 

I'm more of a "standards" than "morals" person, but I'd say it crossed the line between being a "harmless" violation of an absent boss, which should be between BW and the violators and not a matter of public censureship, and an exploit in which the community as a whole has a legitimate interest in seeing punishment when people started flooding markets, spamming general chat with offers to sell their lockouts, and transferring servers to take advantage of "new markets".

[idnewton]

I'm more of a "standards" than "morals" person, but I'd say it crossed the line between being a "harmless" violation of an absent boss, which should be between BW and the violators and not a matter of public censureship, and an exploit in which the community as a whole has a legitimate interest in seeing punishment when people started flooding markets, spamming general chat with offers to sell their lockouts, and transferring servers to take advantage of "new markets".

 

Oh well, now that you've started pointing out the multitude of problems with his post, I can't help but join in

[ArchangelLBC]

Progression race: First to clear the content wins. Since you were only really getting good gear by exploiting this on Hard Mode, someone had to be getting that content down on Hard Mode so they could share the lockout. So exploiting can't affect the HM Ravager's race. Arguably any group that can clear HM Ravager's is already making solid progression in HM ToS. So the progression race isn't affected.

 

The DPS competition is a matter of gear but not time. Whoever puts up the best numbers wins. Doesn't matter how you got your gear. You can either bring it or you can't. If you can then you'll get your gear eventually and blow everyone out of the water. If you can't all the exploited gear in the world isn't going to help you.

 

Neither competition is officially sanctioned by Bioware so is not under the purview nor the protection of the ToS. Both competitions fall under the same general consensus that governs pretty much all such similar competitions in videogames (such as speed runs etc.) which is be up front about your glitches if you use them, so we can separate based on different criteria, but there's nothing morally wrong with it.

 

 

edit:

 

I'm more of a "standards" than "morals" person, but I'd say it crossed the line between being a "harmless" violation of an absent boss, which should be between BW and the violators and not a matter of public censureship, and an exploit in which the community as a whole has a legitimate interest in seeing punishment when people started flooding markets, spamming general chat with offers to sell their lockouts, and transferring servers to take advantage of "new markets".

 

Which I have to tell you is so much more a valid point than "There's no place in games for any cheating whatsoever at any time and in any place".

 

Unfortunately, as I said, we don't get much of a say in what that punishment is, outside of voicing our opinions. My opinion is that the punishment should fit the crime. My opinion is also that if BW is going to come down on this instance of exploiting then they should come down on the other rampant violations of the ToS that affect players to the degree that the community has a legitimate interest in seeing punishment such as all the gold spammers. I'm not saying that by not punishing the latter they shouldn't punish the former. I am saying that by punishing the former, they should punish the latter.

Edited February 1, 2015 by ArchangelLBC

[idnewton]

The people who are already in competition for those progression leaderboards didn't need to exploit

COMPLETELY untrue, the people who are competing with each other have way more incentive to exploit because it gives them an edge over their competition. The fact that you say this makes it seem like you're so far below the progression level that you see everyone at the top as equally divine.

 

PS: Don't think I'm condoning it. They shouldn't have exploited, but they certainly had incentive to do so.

 

Those with the skill to put up top numbers are going to do so, and be in those top progression groups more often than not.

Right, because numbers have nothing to do with gear. Again, no concept of progression level PvE. People don't just randomly get added or removed from progression groups based on one run's numbers.

 

Within the DPS leaderboards, it's already accepted that you will use whatever advantage you can get your hands on

Once again, you have no knowledge of high endgame PvE, stop making embarrassing claims. DPS leaderboards have strict rules, only allowing class buffs and (until the dummy modification items were added) disallowing anyone from A: debuffing the dummy in any way, and B: providing any buffs to you (bloodthirst, etc). No use of Legacy abilities, no use of Agent's Alderaan power consumables, etc.

 

those leaderboards always take gear level into account

Completely false. You are literally making this stuff up as you go. DPS leaderboards have never taken gear into account in any way other than waiting a few weeks after a new tier has come out for people to get gear. After that, it's fair game, and gear plays no role in the leaderboard whatsoever.

 

At worst this expedited the time people wait to start putting in high numbers

Once again, completely wrong. Most players haven't even cleared storymode, and won't clear hardmode until one or two gear tiers later.

 

Additionally, that is a competition, if you can call it that, that the community itself fosters. There are no official BW posts or rewards, or as far as I know any achievements, for being first to kill a boss or being the best at killing a dummy with x amount of health.

You say that like it's relevant in any way, shape or form. It's not. This is an MMO, it's competitive by definition.

 

He is wrong you know.

Yeah, because you did such a fantastic job of proving that.

Edited February 1, 2015 by idnewton

[idnewton]

Wait, what the literal ****? You completely contradicted yourself.

 

At worst this expedited the time people wait to start putting in high numbers

But yet:

The DPS competition is a matter of gear but not time.

 

 

When I can debate you with your own comments... you lose.

Edited February 1, 2015 by idnewton

[ArchangelLBC]

COMPLETELY untrue, the people who are competing with each other have way more incentive to exploit because it gives them an edge over their competition. The fact that you say this makes it seem like you're so far below the progression level that you see everyone at the top as equally divine.

 

PS: Don't think I'm condoning it. They shouldn't have exploited, but they certainly had incentive to do so.

 

You should learn the difference between incentive and need. If I'm in a group clearing HM ravagers so I can have a toon with the lockout, then I don't need gear from HM ravagers in order to win the progression race to beat HM ravagers first. At that point if no one else has beaten HM ravagers then I've already won the progression race. If I haven't already beaten HM Ravagers but use someone else's lockout to gear up then I've already lost that race. Either way exploiting won't help me win the progression race.

 

Did those looking to gear up in BiS 198 gear have an incentive to exploit as much as they possibly could? They sure did. Was this exploiting going to have any bearing on their ability to win a progression race. No it wasn't.

 

Do you need me to use smaller words so you can follow the argument better? A diagram perhaps?

 

Right, because numbers have nothing to do with gear. Again, no concept of progression level PvE. People don't just randomly get added or removed from progression groups based on one run's numbers.

 

In my experience, people are removed from progression groups either because they stop showing up, consistently fail mechanics, or consistently fail DPS/Healing/Tanking checks. A mechanically strong player who consistently shows up and can put up numbers commensurate with their gear level will keep their spot. And if that's not how any "true high level progression" group runs then I'd say they're all equally demonic, not divine.

 

Once again, you have no knowledge of high endgame PvE, stop making embarrassing claims. DPS leaderboards have strict rules, only allowing class buffs and (until the dummy modification items were added) disallowing anyone from A: debuffing the dummy in any way, and B: providing any buffs to you (bloodthirst, etc). No use of Legacy abilities, no use of Agent's Alderaan power consumables, etc.

 

And yet bugged proc relics were allowed weren't they. Even by classes that had a choice on whether or not to exploit that bug such as gunslingers. But yes you're right, player made guildelines are put in place to normalize those results to the extent possible. You know what's never mattered though? How you got your gear. Because it's irrelevant. Because you can either put up numbers or you can't. And whether you get it quickly or slowly, the only thing that matters is who has the biggest numbers in the end.

 

Completely false. You are literally making this stuff up as you go. DPS leaderboards have never taken gear into account in any way other than waiting a few weeks after a new tier has come out for people to get gear. After that, it's fair game, and gear plays no role in the leaderboard whatsoever.

 

You mean like the 6 weeks or so following a completely new expansion that raises the level cap and introduces two entire tiers of new gear? Right so this situation would have no effect since it's within the time limit you described.

 

Once again, completely wrong. Most players haven't even cleared storymode, and won't clear hardmode until several gear tiers later.

 

Are we talking about most players or are we talking about those players who take progression races and DPS leaderboards seriously? Because I'd argue that players that haven't cleared story mode yet don't care about either.

 

You say that like it's relevant in any way, shape or form. It's not. This is an MMO, it's competitive by definition.

 

I'm sure for people like yourself it is. I'd argue that PVE is cooperative by definition. That traditionally MMOs as a whole are cooperative by definition. At best you can call it player defined (i.e. what it is by definition is up to the player in question you ask) but you won't be able to draw any moral conclusions in that case. Which is what my original post was mostly concerned with.

 

Yeah, because you did such a fantastic job of proving that.

 

Whether I did or didn't, you clearly have no grasp of how proofs work, and so I wouldn't go to you to determine how well I did or didn't prove anything anymore than you're likely to come to me to ask how high level "competitive PVE" works.

Edited February 1, 2015 by ArchangelLBC

[ivanhedgehog]

Hahahahaha, wow. You clearly don't take part in any kind of progression level PvE, so your opinion about it doesn't matter. I'm not even going to bother explaining how many ways you're wrong, unless you beg really, really hard.

 

you dont play in the NFL, so your opinion on football doesnt matter. anyone doing the exploit was locked to that ops for weeks, and someone had to of already cleared it. so who would have the world first? the guy that cleared it or the guy that piggy backed on his lockout?

 

if bioware austin sets your moral compass, you have bigger problems.

[babanathie]

However, if the company has a history of passing out harsh punishments for exploiting it would theoretically reduce the number of people exploiting. I'm not saying it would eliminate it, but it would reduce the numbers. Honestly, if BW had passed out permabans for Nefra and any other exploits prior to 3.0 how many people would have exploited Ravagers? If you knew they would ban you for using an exploit would you flush your account away just to get a shiny you could enjoy for maybe a week before your account was deleted by BW? Of course, to be a deterrent, BW needs to have first shown a history of taking harsh actions on exploiters.

 

After over ten years of military service, dissuading behavior with harsh punishment is generally a poor method of eliminating a behavior. Honestly, there is no good way to dissuade certain behavior. Generally, you don't give the harshest punishment on the first offense. You punish to correct. If you permanently banned a first time offender, they don't learn a lesson. Well more accurately, they don't get an opportunity to learn the "lesson" in regards to SWTOR; they just become lost revenue which is bad for the population and the company. They would just take that lesson and revenue to another game. More importantly, the general player base, doesn't learn a lesson either. How many permanently banned players does an average player know? I'm in a raiding guild; I "think" I know one. However, I don't know for sure. That's not a lesson; that's just uncertainty. Uncertainty does not dissuade. Having another player, preferably a "friend" since a stranger isn't likely to share an embarrassment, state that they got banned for a time for doing x, y and z is more likely to keep others from participating in an exploit. Permanently banning right away eliminates that possibility.

 

Personally, I don't have a problem with a Nefra exploiter, assuming that individual was sanctioned for it, getting a permanent ban, even for a relatively minor participation in the current exploit. This would also seem to be supported by Bioware's, at least in wording, exploitation letter. At a certain point, one has to make a decision that an individual is unable or unwilling to adjust their behavior. At that point, cutting ties is probably the best course of action. I'm not saying that I would draw the line there; I just wouldn't have a problem with it. But permanently banning a person for a single infraction... that seems a little over the top.

[idnewton]

You should learn the difference between incentive and need.

Lmao. Nothing in this game is a 'need'. The game itself isn't even a 'need'. If necessity was your point, you wasted your time by making said point.

 

If I'm in a group clearing HM ravagers so I can have a toon with the lockout, then I don't need gear from HM ravagers in order to win the progression race to beat HM ravagers first.

Yeah, because beating five bosses with one character with a chance to get gear is totally the same as bringing in 22 toons to the last boss twice a week getting 100% of the loot.

In other news 2 and 2 make 4.

I'm not surprised that's news to you, seeing as you couldn't do math in your previous post.

 

At that point if no one else has beaten HM ravagers then I've already won the progression race.

Once again, no understanding of how endgame progression works. Do you seriously think it's based on achievements?

 

Either way exploiting won't help me win the progression race.

You can't win a race you don't run.

 

Did those looking to gear up in BiS 198 gear have an incentive to exploit as much as they possibly could? They sure did. Was this exploiting going to have any bearing on their ability to win a progression race. No it wasn't.

If the gear won't have any bearing on their progression, why do you claim they have incentive? Please tell me, what is this incentive? I'm very curious how you're going to backpedal out of this one.

 

In my experience

You have no experience, we've established that. Moving right along...

 

people are removed from progression groups either because they stop showing up, consistently fail mechanics, or consistently fail DPS/Healing/Tanking checks. A mechanically strong player who consistently shows up and can put up numbers commensurate with their gear level will keep their spot.

So? What's your point?

 

You know what's never mattered though? How you got your gear.

Exactly, the leaderboards don't penalize anyone for how they got their gear, which means the gear illegitimately obtained through this exploit gives the exploiters a significant advantage which the leaderboards have no rules in place to prevent. Thank you for literally proving my point.

 

whether you get it quickly or slowly, the only thing that matters is who has the biggest numbers in the end.

The leaderboards are a constant work-in-progress, the "final" DPS numbers don't have much more value than the ones along the way. Besides, most people aren't going to be 10/10 HM 60 ops when the next tier of gear comes out, which is the "end" you describe. So yes, exploiters do get an advantage.

 

You mean like the 6 weeks or so following a completely new expansion that raises the level cap and introduces two entire tiers of new gear? Right so this situation would have no effect since it's within the time limit you described.

Oh, really? I thought you were well-acquainted with DPS leaderboards. Why are you relying solely on my rough ranges and bending them to fit your argument? If you knew DPS leaderboards like you claim to, you would know it only takes two or three weeks for them to come up, and it depends greatly upon the OP because technically the OP can post the leaderboard thread whenever he wants, without waiting at all.

 

Are we talking about most players or are we talking about those players who take progression races and DPS leaderboards seriously? Because I'd argue that players that haven't cleared story mode yet don't care about either.

Well, I don't know what wonderland of a server you play on, but most PvEers on Harbinger suck. You know what they say, 50% of people are below average.

[idnewton]

At worst the exploit expedited the time it took to put up good numbers on the DPS leader boards.

Only for the players who exploited. The rest of us are at a significant disadvantage, which is unfair, which is my point.

 

Since those leader boards are numbers dependent and not time dependent

Thanks for making it extra clear that you don't parse. What, do you think you buy RNG consumables on the GTN? Top parses don't just 'happen' in one or two tries.

[LordArtemis]

This could have been absolutely fine, or it could have been adjusted. It was up to Bioware to decide.

 

That is why morality does not play into it IMO. This was ok until Bioware said it was not OK, then it was most DEFINITELY cheating at that point.

 

Bioware determines what is fair and what is not. Does that mean folks can't have their own standards? Of course not. It only means that those standards mean nothing at the end of the day.

[idnewton]

wait

 

wait

 

so the harm youre describing is because you didnt kill a dragon as soon as someone else on the other side of the country? poor youuuu!!

 

ahahahahahaahahahahaahah

 

 

ahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahaha

 

Getting better numbers on a parsing dummy = killing a dragon? I'd recommend you follow the conversation before making a fool of yourself a second time.

Edited February 2, 2015 by idnewton