MeNaCe-NZ Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Hey, look, a couple people who are mad about something called me a troll because I questioned their feels. That never, ever happens on the internet. Like I said ... if the shoe fits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I gave you the proof you requested, it's your issue if it's not up to your supposed high standards. I'm still waiting for any proof what so ever from you to prove your point of view. You're offering up none what so ever so if anything you want everyone to take your opinion as fact? So what is it about the basic concept of the burden of proof that you're not getting? Twisting words again huh? Selective responses again huh? Something lurks below that bridge. I hear some clip clopping ... must be some goats about. So now anyone who doesn't quote your entire post is a troll? Interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Whilst I tihnk on it also the burden of proof really lies with you. You ( and another ) were the people going about telling everyone who would listen that the exploit has done no harm and isn't that big of a deal. As you were the one to raise this statement you should be able to prove it. Others have come along and disagreed and offered opinions and examples of how you are wrong. So ... still waiting for this proof of yours since you seem to love it so much .... still waiting. Still waiting ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 So what is it about the basic concept of the burden of proof that you're not getting? So now anyone who doesn't quote your entire post is a troll? Interesting. The same thing you seem to not get perhaps? You/pagy were the ones making the initial statement of "no harm done", you back it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Whilst I tihnk on it also the burden of proof really lies with you. You ( and another ) were the people going about telling everyone who would listen that the exploit has done no harm and isn't that big of a deal. As you were the one to raise this statement you should be able to prove it. Others have come along and disagreed and offered opinions and examples of how you are wrong. So ... still waiting for this proof of yours since you seem to love it so much .... still waiting. Still waiting ... You should drop by your nearest college or university and sign up for a course in Legal Philosophy or Philosophy of Science. What you're doing here is claiming that there's a teapot in orbit around the sun, and telling us that we must accept this as true unless we can prove otherwise. You're saying "No one can prove that intangible, invisible unicorns don't exist, therefore, they exist". The burden of proof lies on those who claim that something exist. You haven't demonstrated that harm occurred. The closest you've come to even demonstrating anecdotal evidence of harm is to relay the story of how you were told by an ops leader they had chosen someone with better gear over you. For the sake of good will, we'll assume that's true -- what you haven't done is demonstrate that the person with better gear actually obtained it using the exploit. You also didn't mention whether you were able to get into another group for the same Op in a timely manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 -snip for irrelevant nonsense-. You made a statement numerous times. "No harm was done". Please prove it. Still waiting ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) You made a statement numerous times. "No harm was done". Please prove it. Still waiting ... You should drop by your nearest college or university and sign up for a course in Legal Philosophy or Philosophy of Science. What you're doing here is claiming that there's a teapot in orbit around the sun, and telling us that we must accept this as true unless we can prove otherwise. You're saying "No one can prove that intangible, invisible unicorns don't exist, therefore, they exist". The burden of proof lies on those who claim that something exist. You haven't demonstrated that harm occurred. The closest you've come to even demonstrating anecdotal evidence of harm is to relay the story of how you were told by an ops leader they had chosen someone with better gear over you. For the sake of good will, we'll assume that's true -- what you haven't done is demonstrate that the person with better gear actually obtained it using the exploit. You also didn't mention whether you were able to get into another group for the same Op in a timely manner. Also, this "rubber and glue" thing you're doing where you just turn around things others have said and rephrase them in reverse? Yeah, that's not something you want to be doing when you're the one throwing around the word "troll" casually. At any rate, your anger is still obviously clouding your judgement, and you're more concerned with "winning" than actually reading what others post. I hope you get over this someday, it's really not healthy. Bye. I guess reading the forums will be less "interesting" without your posts. Edited January 31, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myxam Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 One day bans Eric, for what amounts to months of skipped content? This gear tier and the one following are virtually ruined because of the exploit and the worst I've heard of across the forums for this game is a day off. A lecture isn't really something I expected to need to do but the point of a punishment is to diminish the gain of breaking the rules, therefore the punishment needs to equivalent or greater than the act. In this case, Month long bans, Gear Comm and Schem removals, and outright Permanent Bans. Its far too late for any of this now, but the Management needs to understand that an action like this is an open invitation for exploitation because you've shown leniency on its punishment. Exploits (especially economic and gameplay centric ones) can literally destroy a game in weeks, look to Elder Scrolls Online -- it was devastated by a Duplication Glitch at launch that didn't get patched until Five to Six weeks into the game's release. Players left the game in droves and what was anticipated to be a competitor to World of Warcraft is now seen as Shovelware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 One day bans Eric, for what amounts to months of skipped content? This gear tier and the one following are virtually ruined because of the exploit and the worst I've heard of across the forums for this game is a day off. A lecture isn't really something I expected to need to do but the point of a punishment is to diminish the gain of breaking the rules, therefore the punishment needs to equivalent or greater than the act. In this case, Month long bans, Gear Comm and Schem removals, and outright Permanent Bans. Its far too late for any of this now, but the Management needs to understand that an action like this is an open invitation for exploitation because you've shown leniency on its punishment. Exploits (especially economic and gameplay centric ones) can literally destroy a game in weeks, look to Elder Scrolls Online -- it was devastated by a Duplication Glitch at launch that didn't get patched until Five to Six weeks into the game's release. Players left the game in droves and what was anticipated to be a competitor to World of Warcraft is now seen as Shovelware. From what I've read of ESO reviews, that glitch was hardly the cause of people ditching the game in droves, the game simply stank on ice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Also, this "rubber and glue" thing you're doing where you just turn around things others have said and rephrase them in reverse? Yeah, that's not something you want to be doing when you're the one throwing around the word "troll" casually. At any rate, your anger is still obviously clouding your judgement, and you're more concerned with "winning" than actually reading what others post. I hope you get over this someday, it's really not healthy. Bye. Nah I'm just kinda over feeding the troll and thought you made an interesting point with your whole burden of proof spiel then I remember "hang on, these guys were the ones making the statement in the first place, why would it be on us to prove them wrong?" So you can keep going with your smoke and mirrors tricks to avoid the point at hand or you can offer up proof. Still waiting ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) three thoughts come to mind 1) any group that chooses gear over skill or experience should be avoided 2) gear checkers have always been out there and always will be 3) if youre refused a spot, there is no harm given the fact that you can start your own group at any time my reputation speaks for me. im sorry if you have nothing to offer a group. Additionally, all he said was that he didn't get in because of someone with better gear -- unless he's leaving something out, it stands that he's ASSUMING that the other person had better gear because of the exploit. So again, no established instances of tangible harm. Edited January 31, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dacentabaal Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Hey folks, As I talked about in my previous post we needed to finalize our data and ensure that we were ready to move on appropriate actions for those players who abused the Ravager’s Exploit. Since we have been a bit more open in our process regarding this particular exploit, we thought it would be best to bring it full circle and tell you specifically what we are doing to those players. As of this post, our actions against players has begun. Here are the types of actions we are taking based on the severity of their exploits: Received a warning along with anywhere between 1-7 days of in-game suspension time.Anyone who received an in-game suspension will also lose their forum privileges for the same period of time. [*]For our most egregious offenders, they will have received a suspension up to a permanent suspension. Inside of those categories of player’s it is also possible they could have very specific additional actions taken against them including: Removal of inappropriately obtained high-end gear and crafting materialsRemoval of credits and commendations We know that one of the gameplay impacts from this exploit was an influx of crafters being able to make items which they reverse engineered from ill-gotten gains. Any player who exploited (regardless of severity) and gained a crafting pattern is likely to see that pattern removed. So all of you know what to expect, this is an example of the messaging sent to those players who are receiving an in-game suspension: Dear Customer, We are contacting you regarding your account for Star Wars™: The Old Republic™. This is to notify you that we will be taking action against your account for a violation of our Terms of Service. After a thorough investigation, we discovered the following Terms of Service violations: This account participated in looting the final chest of the Ravager’s Operation without legitimately completing the content. By doing so, this account was able to acquire high-end gear, commendations or crafting patterns, or crafting materials, in a manner violating our Terms of Service and the related Rules of Conduct, specifically: “… you may not engage in any of the following behavior: Exploit any bug in the Service to gain unfair advantage in the game and/or communicate the existence of any such bug (either directly or through the public posting) to any other user of the Service.” The action taken against your account is a <TIME> suspension and the removal of any learned crafting recipes from the use of this exploit from any characters on this account that participated. It is important to note that should this account partake in any future exploit, it will receive a more severe action up to and including permanent suspension. We appreciate your continued participation with SWTOR and remind you the game needs to remain fun and engaging for everyone. To prevent future situations where you may encounter a potential exploit, we encourage you to review our Terms of Service and Rules of Conduct which can be found here: http://tos.ea.com/legalapp/WEBTERMS/US/en/PC/, and here: http://www.swtor.com/legalnotices/rulesofconduct If you feel that this action has been applied in error, please contact swtoraccountdisputes@bioware.com. Sincerely, <i>Star Wars ™</i>: The Old Republic™ Terms of Service We didn’t take these actions lightly and reviewed every account to determine where we could be lenient. From our end, this was a no win situation. We feel responsible for allowing the exploit to occur and remain in the game for an unreasonable length of time, but we also cannot and will not condone cheating. Thankfully, a large majority of our players didn’t exploit at all, but unfortunately, some of those who did have been with us for a long time, even all the way back to launch. It breaks our hearts to see a few of those loyal players partake in the exploit. Still, it would be unfair to not punish those players, and so we had to take action. We have all learned some valuable lessons this past month or so, and we’re hopeful to catch these types of situations long before they get released or very quickly thereafter. Please continue to do what you can to notify us quickly should we create another situation where someone can benefit by exploiting a bug in the game. We appreciate your understanding of our position and hope you’ll continue to enjoy your time with us. We have a lot of great additions coming to SWTOR this year and we look forward to sharing them with you. -eric I was just talking to one of my guildies who has an alt in the guild GIzka and all of that guild did the Ravegers exploit repeatedly and only ONE of their guildies got a 24 hour ban, they state its because 'all of them but the one banned brought Cartel Coins' so they think they got exempt from the ban as they had none of their matts or gear gained etc removed or touched, also asked around and its pretty much the same from people I chatted too, my mate got only a 24 ban and that was on a work day for him he didn't plan on logging in so he didn't lose out on anything as he also still has his gear and matts earnt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theeko Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I was just talking to one of my guildies who has an alt in the guild GIzka and all of that guild did the Ravegers exploit repeatedly and only ONE of their guildies got a 24 hour ban, they state its because 'all of them but the one banned brought Cartel Coins' so they think they got exempt from the ban as they had none of their matts or gear gained etc removed or touched, also asked around and its pretty much the same from people I chatted too, my mate got only a 24 ban and that was on a work day for him he didn't plan on logging in so he didn't lose out on anything as he also still has his gear and matts earnt Bad decisions not to ban tbh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neoforcer Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Permanent Bans. We didn’t take these actions lightly and reviewed every account to determine where we could be lenient. From our end, this was a no win situation. Let me break Eric post down for you holy hell there were more people doing the exploit then we let on so now we have to take it easy on people or not have a game at all. how do i know this it is because my server went from standard to ghost town in one night so did most of the other servers i watch the server status on swtor. There was no way for them to do what you ask.Hell gen chat went from people talking to only credit farmers. Yavin 4 had 3 instances when normally there are 7 or 8 every night. This should tell you some thing about the action. They miss reported how many people did it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quraswren Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) So again, no established instances of tangible harm. When it comes to cheaters you simply don't need tangible. Doesn't matter if it's in your face or hidden. No game needs cheaters both from a players standpoint and business one. A claim of, "it didn't harm anyone" is way to over used to try and give some justification for being a cheater. Scrap them off, no one needs them in games. It goes to much against fair play and integrity in gaming. Enough harm can be done and it not be tangible. Edited January 31, 2015 by Quraswren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel_L Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 As far as I'm concerned if you have an undocumented bug, its a feature until you document it as a bug. I dont care how obvious it should be to players that its a bug, in a game with lots of bugs, some that actually become official features at some point how they can go and take any action against accounts that used a game feature before it was labeled a bug is beyond me, especially when the they had ample opportunity to document it before it even went to live servers. I am glad that I play this game as a fun single player game so most of this stuff doesnt affect me, but it is pretty low of bioware to do anything especially with their history of enforcement in past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quraswren Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) As far as I'm concerned if you have an undocumented bug, its a feature until you document it as a bug. I dont care how obvious it should be to players that its a bug, in a game with lots of bugs, some that actually become official features at some point how they can go and take any action against accounts that used a game feature before it was labeled a bug is beyond me, especially when the they had ample opportunity to document it before it even went to live servers. I am glad that I play this game as a fun single player game so most of this stuff doesnt affect me, but it is pretty low of bioware to do anything especially with their history of enforcement in past. No matter how you spin it. This bug was so obvious, already document, already tried to be fixed once and they didn't accomplish it but at the end of the day, you cannot in any MMo that I know of, go into an OPS and take the loot from the last boss without actually killing it yourself. Doesn't really matter if the bug was there a day or a year. If your a gamer at all, you know it was an exploit. No one needed BW to tell them it was a exploit, we all knew it already and no amount of spin changes that. Gamers exploited - punishment happened. Some may have gotten off lightly and some not so lightly but don't pretend it was fine to do because there are other bugs. Its like you have never played a MMo before. Edited January 31, 2015 by Quraswren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Additionally, all he said was that he didn't get in because of someone with better gear -- unless he's leaving something out, it stands that he's ASSUMING that the other person had better gear because of the exploit. So again, no established instances of tangible harm in my opinion. I fixed your post for you, you can thank me any time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 (edited) When it comes to cheaters you simply don't need tangible. Doesn't matter if it's in your face or hidden. No game needs cheaters both from a players standpoint and business one. A claim of, "it didn't harm anyone" is way to over used to try and give some justification for being a cheater. Scrap them off, no one needs them in games. It goes to much against fair play and integrity in gaming. Enough harm can be done and it not be tangible. The point of coming back to the magnitude and sort of harm caused is not an attempt to justify cheating. It's a matter of establishing a reasonable response, vs an unreasonable response, to the cheating that took place. To repeat the analogy, calling for long or permanent bans, stripping of gear, loss of credits, etc, for this, is like calling for federal prison sentences for jaywalking. The exploit in this case about equivalent to driving with expired plates for a couple of weeks, and yet for some reason there are people reacting with the sort of moral outrage normally seen in reaction to the murder of a child. There seems to be a failure in the sense of scope and scape here. Edited February 1, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quraswren Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 (edited) The point of coming back to the magnitude and sort of harm caused is not an attempt to justify cheating. It's a matter of establishing a reasonable response, vs an unreasonable response, to the cheating that took place. There is no place for cheaters to be honest. No game needs them from the simplist of games to the most complicated. If the game developer wants to slap them on the wrist or ban them thats fine with me but I also have no problem with just jumping to ban. No game needs cheaters especially ones that want to make themselves feel good about doing it or want to downplay it as if it was their right cheat because it was there and not quickly fixed. To repeat the analogy, calling for long or permanent bans, stripping of gear, loss of credits, etc, for this, is like calling for federal prison sentences for jaywalking. The exploit in this case about equivalent to driving with expired plates for a couple of weeks, and yet for some reason there are people reacting with the sort of moral outrage normally seen in reaction to the murder of a child. There seems to be a failure in the sense of scope and scape here. Sometimes when you speed you get away with it. Sometimes you get a warning and sometimes you get a fine and sometimes you get your license taken away. All that for just speeding. Doesn't matter if you were all alone on a country road and no one around but you and the ones that caught you. the punishment can swing wildly and depending on how bad you speed it can determine your punishment. Similar case here. Some got warnings of sorts, some got a small fine and some got banned. There is your scope but for me, I got no problem getting rid of cheaters in games. But on a personal note, if you exploited, I got no problem with banning any of them because no game needs a cheater. Not a single one. Cheaters in games of all sorts is not just are not needed and especially so in this case given how obvious the bug was. Someone exploited the game, knew exactly what they were doing, knew exactly it was not the intended mechanic of any boss - ever and did it anyway. I got no sympathy for cheaters. They can be banned and I'll sleep just as good that night as I did the others. I see no place in gaming for those that want to cheat. Edited February 1, 2015 by Quraswren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frybert Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 *points at horse* It's dead, Jim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idnewton Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 I almost fell bad for all those witch hunting white knights. No matter what happens there will be people who takes it too far. As someone who refused to take part in the exploit and wanted Bioware to do something about it, I'm reasonably satisfied with the result. Do I think they should have done as they said and removed gear/schematics? Of course, but at the end of the day, it served as a good reality check to a lot of people who will perhaps think twice before giving in again. Especially since I heard a rumor that the GM of "that trashy guild on harbinger" got the ban sledgehammer to the face, I'd say BW did the bare minimum of what was necessary, without taking it too far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel_L Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 (edited) No matter how you spin it. This bug was so obvious, already document, already tried to be fixed once and they didn't accomplish it but at the end of the day, you cannot in any MMo that I know of, go into an OPS and take the loot from the last boss without actually killing it yourself. Doesn't really matter if the bug was there a day or a year. If your a gamer at all, you know it was an exploit. No one needed BW to tell them it was a exploit, we all knew it already and no amount of spin changes that. Gamers exploited - punishment happened. Some may have gotten off lightly and some not so lightly but don't pretend it was fine to do because there are other bugs. Its like you have never played a MMo before. The whole point of the game is to get around the obstacle's in your way, while getting free loot is usually a bug, until its posted in the patch notes, via ingame mail to make sure people know that something in game is something they are not allowed to do it should be allowable. If its too much for bioware to keep on top of free loot bugs to at least tell their players its a bug, they should get out of the game making buisness. All players want to get ahead, I dont see them banning players for picking the best classes and spec available. If its on live its a feature unless otherwise specifically notified by the designers. Does a little extra gear actually matter? If it does they should have done something about it sooner and if not then they should leave players alone Edited February 1, 2015 by Rebel_L Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idnewton Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 No matter how you spin it. This bug was so obvious, already document, already tried to be fixed once and they didn't accomplish it but at the end of the day, you cannot in any MMo that I know of, go into an OPS and take the loot from the last boss without actually killing it yourself. Doesn't really matter if the bug was there a day or a year. If your a gamer at all, you know it was an exploit. No one needed BW to tell them it was a exploit, we all knew it already and no amount of spin changes that. Gamers exploited - punishment happened. Some may have gotten off lightly and some not so lightly but don't pretend it was fine to do because there are other bugs. Its like you have never played a MMo before. In a thread full of egotistical air-heads like Max_Killjoy, it's refreshing to see some common sense for a change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 There is no place for cheaters to be honest. No game needs them from the simplist of games to the most complicated. If the game developer wants to slap them on the wrist or ban them thats fine with me but I also have no problem with just jumping to ban. No game needs cheaters especially ones that want to make themselves feel good about doing it or want to downplay it as if it was their right cheat because it was there and not quickly fixed. Sometimes when you speed you get away with it. Sometimes you get a warning and sometimes you get a fine and sometimes you get your license taken away. All that for just speeding. Doesn't matter if you were all alone on a country road and no one around but you and the ones that caught you. the punishment can swing wildly and depending on how bad you speed it can determine your punishment. Similar case here. Some got warnings of sorts, some got a small fine and some got banned. There is your scope but for me, I got no problem getting rid of cheaters in games. But on a personal note, if you exploited, I got no problem with banning any of them because no game needs a cheater. Not a single one. Cheaters in games of all sorts is not just are not needed and especially so in this case given how obvious the bug was. Someone exploited the game, knew exactly what they were doing, knew exactly it was not the intended mechanic of any boss - ever and did it anyway. I got no sympathy for cheaters. They can be banned and I'll sleep just as good that night as I did the others. I see no place in gaming for those that want to cheat. Here's the gaping, yawning chasm of a divide that's probably never going to be bridged. Until someone can demonstrate that exploiting this bug actually "hurt" other players, some of us are never going to consider this more than a technical violation, the breaking of a rule but not a moral transgression. We're asking why this was wrong. While the broken rule allows Bioware to do as they see fit, as this is a privately-run business and they can refuse service at their discretion... there's just nothing that rises to the level of engendering a moral response. Others clearly view breaking a rule as a moral transgression, full stop. They say it's wrong because it's cheating, and cheating is wrong, and that's that. Sorry, but understanding why something is wrong is critical. Simply repeating "because it's wrong!" isn't an answer, any more than "Because it's blue!" is an answer to "Why is the sky blue?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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