Action For The Ravager's Exploit

[Jamtas]

There were many threads on the forums where people said the payoff amounts had to be a bug, and so people using it were exploiting. There were enough people saying it that Musco felt he had to say "it's not an exploit". So my point is that "this mechanic is too good to be true" and "people are calling it an exploit" are NOT sufficient to be used as proof that someone knew they were doing something illegal and should be punished.

 

entering (or buying access to) a completed op to collect loot is in no way an accident or a belief that the content was meant to be used that way. purchasing a slot machine coin with description that it is to be used on said slot machine which returns a similar message when clicking it is a reasonable expectation that it was supposed to be used that way.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Jamtas

[Frybert]

I must have missed the bit where people called for punishment any harsher than what is being dished out.

 

Oh though I do recall a few sarcastic people wanting to see everyone perm banned that most ignored but a few trolls, like him, must have latched onto those couple of "out there" posts and applied that ideology onto everyone who wanted to see cheaters punished.

 

Granted, this particular thread is a lot less toxic than the other two, but yes you must have missed them in the three major threads on the subject.

 

I'm picking this first one purely out of laziness because its like two posts above yours.

 

What good is a 1 day suspension for somebody who logs in every 2 days? What good is a 6 day suspension for somebody who logs in once a week? Most people wont even know they got a suspension unless they check their emails every day.

 

The point of a punishment isnt for the sake of being punished. Its supposed to be a deterrent. Repeat offenders repeat because the punishment doesnt effect them. How is not even knowing you were punished a deterrant from you doing it again? How is knowing somebody got suspended for 7 days a deterrant for you who logs in every 10 days?

 

I'm in favor of very stiff punishments because the harsher the punishment, the less likely it will happen a second time. I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of those who did this exploit, did the Nefra exploit, and the EC exploit and many other exploits. And because this "punishment" didnt actually effect them, they will do the next exploit causing it to run rampant also.

 

Then there is this from page six.

 

While I appreciate the good will here, I honestly think it is a smack on the wrist.

 

7 day suspension? Really?

 

And just looked at the people looting the final chest? Check who the gear got traded to. In case others have forgotten, you can trade gear gotten in OPs to another member who was also in the OP group for 2 hours. Which I am sure the exploiters thought of....

 

Make a throwaway account, buy an OPs pass on GTN, loot with said throwaway account, pass gear to main account that was also in the OPs but did not loot.

 

Exploit once? 7 day suspension.

Exploit 3 times, 30 day suspension.

Exploit 4+ times, BAN.

 

And I would check the looters to make sure they didnt just loot and pass gear to an account that did not loot to try and keep the "innocent" appearance.

 

From page 1 of the 'Regarding punishment for exploit' thread:

 

1) 3 days is not nearly enough to punish the exploiters. Hell, if I knew it was only 3 days, I'd start exploiting right now. Anything shorter than a month is not an acceptable punishment.

2) Taking away the gear is nearly impossible. Players could strip the mods and send it to alts, and based on previous encounters with CS, they don't seem to be able to track mods after they are pulled out. Mats can be sold off to crafters and become untraceable.

IMO, they should ban players for longer than a month, maybe even leading into to the next raiding content, as well as permabanning all the players that contributed to spreading the exploit, especially those talking about it in fleet chat and the ones selling the secret for credits. Also, it would be a nice gesture to offer an exclusive pet or mount to all players that were honest and did not exploit.

 

I'm not going to go through 350+ pages to find every incident of people calling for some pretty draconian punishments, but I can assure you they are there.

 

ETA 1:

Just a recap of some of the punishments I remember people calling for:

• Complete roll-back
  
• Publicly shaming the exploiters
  
• Perm bans for one instance of using exploit
  
• Removal of exploited items from those who may have bought items from exploiters
  

 

And lets not forget everyone wanting something special for NOT exploiting.

 

ETA 2:Also, my post was meant as a joke, lighten up

Edited January 29, 2015 by Frybert

[Jamtas]

People like to say that, but in an actual court, intent is usually taken into consideration.

 

Also, this was taking advantage of a bug in a video game to extra cookies from the infinite jar -- not a criminal act. No one was hurt, no laws were broken.

 

no law broken, yes that is correct. A violation of TOS, that however is true

[deezOneTenTen]

People like to say that, but in an actual court, intent is usually taken into consideration.

 

Also, this was taking advantage of a bug in a video game to extra cookies from the infinite jar -- not a criminal act. No one was hurt, no laws were broken.

 

I know. I was just trying to say, if you played the game to level 55 and got the gear to be able to go into the Ravagers operation, then you know full well that going in and clicking loot for all your toons without actually doing the operation is wrong even if it wasnt stated out loud by Bioware.

[deezOneTenTen]

Even if it's not a crime until the police officer declares it is and starts arresting people for it?

 

So you're going to tell me that you played your character until at least level 55 and got the gear at least high enough to go into that operation but you didnt know it was wrong to go in with all your characters and just loot the boss over and over without actually playing in the operation?

[Max_Killjoy]

I know. I was just trying to say, if you played the game to level 55 and got the gear to be able to go into the Ravagers operation, then you know full well that going in and clicking loot for all your toons without actually doing the operation is wrong even if it wasnt stated out loud by Bioware.

 

Eh, it's a bit cheesy, I don't know if I'd say it's "wrong", that implies perhaps more moral weight than it deserves.

 

It certain doesn't rise to the level of outrage that some people have expressed over it.

[Jamtas]

Really I see there are two ways this affects others

 

1)Those who like to challange and go for the 1st titles on their servers or placement in top 10 list. Does the gear make up for skill - not at all. But does someone in min/maxed 198 vs someone in 186/192 of equal skill have an advantage? Of course.

 

2) Economy in two ways. Thsoe that grind in these ops and roll to win drops and RE for chance to learn schematic and then sell items on the GTN are at a disadvantage with someone sending multiple alts through and getting full set of loot (rather than chance at piece) and having a larger stockpile to RE form and thus a higher chance. That person is either now 1) selling these new items on the GTN and taking potential purchases away from the "legitimate" crafter 2) now eliminating themselves from the potential buyers pool if they nromally would have made th purchase to get an item faster/earlier than they would have without the opportunity to exploit.

[deezOneTenTen]

Eh, it's a bit cheesy, I don't know if I'd say it's "wrong", that implies perhaps more moral weight than it deserves.

 

It certain doesn't rise to the level of outrage that some people have expressed over it.

 

 

Like I said before, I dont craft and I have my own raid team so those who did this didnt effect me, but the reason I call it wrong is because it was stated in the ToS and RoC that it was wrong and we all agreed to abide by those terms. So basically they are breaking their agreement which is why I feel its wrong.

 

And like I said earlier, the only reason I think there should be harsher punishments is because if you dont even know you were punished, what good did it serve?

 

Those that are crying ban for 1 offense is quite unrealistic.

 

If I were handling it, me personally I would have done

1-2 uses of the exploit, both an in game and personal email letting that person know it was against the rules and a bannable offense.

3 uses I would have suspended for 2 weeks (many people I know only log in 2-3 times a week at best so a 1-3 days suspension doesnt even effect them)

4-5 uses a 1 month suspension

6+ permanent ban.

 

Tho I would have let them keep their gear. I'd rather they kept their few pieces but not be able to log in than simply take their pieces and allow them to find another exploit to abuse, because if the punishment isnt harsh enough, they will keep doing it.

 

But, it is what it is. Hopefully people will at least know and hopefully this minor punishment will be enough to deter people from doing the next inevitable one.

[IgNobilitas]

 

Going forward, there needs to be some way of knowing "this is an exploit and you may be punished for doing it" vs. "You are using a game mechanic in a very clever way the developers never considered and they may make it so it doesn't work but it's not an exploit." Or is clever approaches inherently inappropriate for the game?

 

That would have been simple, once

 

Say on release: " sorry too busy fixing important stuff, the exploit's there you'll get punished if you use it"

Revert the fix for bugged loot it is and use your mighty tracking system to compensate players afterward.

And now it gets psychedelic; delay release because you're product is severely flawed.

 

On a different note, I know at least one player who won't be doing the weekly raid tomorrow cause too many in the guild got banned. And before anyone starts, pugs aren't known for their tolerance for kids and other RL stuff interfering during ops.

 

I really loved this game but I can and will not let my money be used any longer to show you're tough on crime while the game's in such a sorry state. If I look back at the weeks after release I feel a fool thinking back at what I put up with, not to mention paid for, to be able to raid with my guildies.

 

nevermore

[OneHit]

Does that mean will we focus on coding now? Or is that pesky slot machine at it again? Punishing people a month later for a an exploit! How about the lag and the poor coding? Pretty sure that's where i want my money to go to.

 

ZERO CONFIDENCE. That is what you BW people instill in us. Hey Eric how about you go to your boss an explain that the game becomes un-enjoyable when more than 8 people group. Or that the whole issue is a result of having no one on the payroll! You guys spent a month on this? BW if you punished anyone then you punished the wrong people. Mine as well terminate everyone. There is zero difference anyways from when you guys are working or on vacation. All you guys do is comeback and beat people up for your own mistakes.

 

 

NEWS FLASH. Lag is not a boss mechanic?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

[LyraineAlei]

Ya every one that said fair punishment was accused of the exploit

 

Except me, though I'm not sure I explicitly said "Sounds like a fair punishment." And I have repeatedly mentioned that I don't do raiding and support Solo-mode for things (at a reduced prize, Ofc)... So...

 

Sounds like a fair punishment.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Evidently, you did.

 

Such as the multiple posters who stated that everyone who used the exploit even once should be perma-banned, or stripped of all gear and equipment.

 

Such as the multiple posers who stated that they didn't care what effect banning "exploiters" on the game, including causing it to implode and shut down if that's what it came to.

 

Such as the multiple posters who have continuously accused anyone who has reacted to the calls for blood by so much as saying "wait a minute, let's be rational" of being "one of the cheaters trying to cover up".

 

Those were quite the minority from everything I read and something you and a couple of the other troll brigade decided to jump on and try lump everyone else into ( myself included ). I called you out on this a few times and every time you failed to really back up your point of view ( hence me titling you a troll ).

 

Perhaps if you were a "wait a minute let's be rational" type of person instead of someone who just enjoys stirring the pot ( see troll ) your 3rd point would hold some relevance but you really aren't and it really doesn't.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Ya every one that said fair punishment was accused of the exploit

 

It's good to see you and a couple of the others here at least then.

 

I do note a couple of other vocal minority on the pro exploit crowd missing from the discussion since Eric's announcement though, make your own assumptions based on that.

 

FWIW I don't recall you being a "fair punishment" person, more of a "It's call bioware's fault and nothing should be done" person but each to their own. I've seen a few people change their story today now.

[Max_Killjoy]

Those were quite the minority from everything I read and something you and a couple of the other troll brigade decided to jump on and try lump everyone else into ( myself included ). I called you out on this a few times and every time you failed to really back up your point of view ( hence me titling you a troll ).

 

Perhaps if you were a "wait a minute let's be rational" type of person instead of someone who just enjoys stirring the pot ( see troll ) your 3rd point would hold some relevance but you really aren't and it really doesn't.

 

Of course you called me a troll, I'm not on board with the hammer.

 

Sorry Bioware deleted a ton of the most insane posts -- but Frybert was able to provide several examples right off the top of his head, and if I thought for a moment it would make any difference at all to your attitude towards me, I'd go dig a few up -- but I'm not foolish enough to think for a moment it would change anything.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[Darth_Wicked]

Of course you called me a troll, I'm not on board with the hammer.

 

On the other hand...

 

I wonder if there will be any poetic irony... one of the people calling for lifetime bans or total gear loss, getting severely nailed accidentally because of a data glitch or human error inside Bioware.

 

Yeah.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Darth_Wicked

[Max_Killjoy]

On the other hand...

 

Yeah.

 

How is that trolling?

 

When confronted with the possibility that the innocent could be caught up in the punishments due to data glitch, human error, misreading of the evidence, etc, several people on the "hammer" side of the argument openly stated that they didn't care, as long as the guilty got what they supposedly deserved.

 

And how would it not be poetic irony to see one of those people hit with the hammer they were calling for?

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Granted, this particular thread is a lot less toxic than the other two, but yes you must have missed them in the three major threads on the subject.

 

 

 

ETA 1:

Just a recap of some of the punishments I remember people calling for:

• Complete roll-back
  
• Publicly shaming the exploiters
  
• Perm bans for one instance of using exploit
  
• Removal of exploited items from those who may have bought items from exploiters
  

 

And lets not forget everyone wanting something special for NOT exploiting.

 

ETA 2:Also, my post was meant as a joke, lighten up

 

Well all in all the punishment metted out is more or less what I wanted to see. Gear/schem removal was the main one and whilst I'm sure many will get away with it at least BW made an effort in this regard and I also believe it will be an on going manual process ( i.e. suspend you all now, you're on a list now we'll start the process of having staffl ook through your gear/logs etc. ).

 

Suspension ... seems fair enough. I didn't really push this issue too hard as it seems moot if they keep the gear but it is what it is.

 

Perm ban ... definitely for those that sold/spread this exploit. Let's hope the true architects of it all got what was coming to them but I guess we'll never know.

 

On the plus side the guilty are talking the talk now all over reddit about now laughable this is and how they will happily do it again but I personally think BW have sent a message this time and if it were to happen again many that got punished this time wouldn't do it simply because they know BW is watching and they know if they get caught again they'll probably get perm banned ( and deservedly so if purposely cheating again after getting caught this time ).

 

As for those mentioning the punishments you outline yes there were a few of those but I thought those of us at least attempting to partake in meaningful debate on the issue managed to ignore them as much as many tried to ignore people running around calling everyone witch hunters who were just as bad really.

[Pagy]

I'm pretty sure eric called out that gear would be removed in his post. That would be kinda sad if people did keep the gear.

read the post again, friend.

[Darth_Wicked]

How is that trolling?

 

You call out people expecting blood to be spilled, but in the process, you seem to forget an important detail: by the ToS, regardless of who's backside is supposed to cover, they presumably did no harm.

 

As such, them expecting Bioware to hit people with the hammer is NOT only to be expected, but warranted; we're all bound by the same set of rules.

 

That however seems to hold no special significance or meaning to you.

 

Instead, you hope someone from Bioware does mess up and one of those individuals is either banned or suspended. Those same people who chose to abide by the ToS.

 

In other words, NOT only you are a troll, but also come across as a hypocrite; you admonish others for supposedly having NO standards whatsoever, when you should take a look at the mirror first before hitting "Submit Reply".

 

That is all.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Darth_Wicked

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Of course you called me a troll, I'm not on board with the hammer.

 

Sorry Bioware deleted a ton of the most insane posts -- but Frybert was able to provide several examples right off the top of his head, and if I thought for a moment it would make any difference at all to your attitude towards me, I'd go dig a few up -- but I'm not foolish enough to think for a moment it would change anything.

 

No my attitude towards you changed to one of you being a troll once I realised you were trying to lump me in with those same people ( probably more so than those other people because you had an active target ) regardless of my clarifying my view on the punishments I thought were deserved ( though I did include removal of shells but upon debate agreed that may be a bit too severe and reneged on that point of view ).

 

Perhaps after numerous times of being implied I was a witch hunter I implied you sure did seem to enjoy defending the guilty and may have been one of the guilty I did go as far as to apologise to you if that were the case and you were innocent but of course you kept going with it regardless of how rational other point of view were.

 

You accuse everyone of being over the top or irrational in their response but I don't once recall you stating what a rational response was or a rational treatment of the issue was beyond ignoring it and moving on and to me and many others THAT is far more irrational than simply asking for ill gotten gear to be removed.

[howieloader]

So no one has any knowledge of anyone that's actually been permabanned, correct???

[LyraineAlei]

So no one has any knowledge of anyone that's actually been permabanned, correct???

 

The permabanned can't tell us. Unless they make an alternative account. Which could result in an IP ban, if I recall.

[Reno_Tarshil]

Max I think you need a nap, because this issue has obviously enraged you.

[Darth_Wicked]

The permabanned can't tell us. Unless they make an alternative account. Which could result in an IP ban, if I recall.

 

 

There's always Reddit. We'll know one way or another.

 

[LyraineAlei]

There's always Reddit. We'll know one way or another.

 

Oh yes. Them. I forgot about them.