DX 12 coming SWTOR sitll in the darkages.

[Ghisallo]

I love when threads like this crop up considering no one outside of EA/BW's tech people knows what will and won't work.

 

It's possible SWTOR's version of the Hero Engine won't play nice with DX 12. It's possible DX 12 won't improve anything at all and it's worthless to support it.

 

Changing code isn't like swapping engines in a car or buying new underwear...

 

Its not a matter of whether they will play well together... Its a matter of changing to the engine to work with it. When you change the engine then you have to change how the rest of the code talks to the engine in the aspects impacted. To use your car engine analogy... Its not like swapping the entire engine... Its like putting a turbo on an existing engine with the intent of NOT shredding your engine...

 

A good turbocharger, not one of those cheap kits they sell to teenage tuner kits, also requires a new quality manifold to bolt the turbocharger to, then you'll need all the piping fitted and an intercooler. Then you'll need to tune it somehow, which means a bigger fuel pump, injectors and computer tuning. You also have to look at the "basic" cooling system of your engine you may have to replace that as well...else you will overheat the engine.

 

This all costs time and money, more time and money than you obviously understand.

[Ghisallo]

I think you're mistaking pure profit and cost ratios with market share. You're not including that element of business and investment because of the market share.

 

Businesses tend to look much longer term than many realise, at some stage DX9 will become obsolete and not supported by card manufacturers, prior to this happening I would imagine EA / BioWare will make sure they have an MMO that will still help them retain market share as a business (ergo investment).

 

So at some stage, either SW:ToR will be updated to work with a newer Direct X API or a new MMO will be in the pipeline. You are talking many years away though, bear in mind the last Direct 3D 8.x cards were around 2001-2002. It'll be a long time before Direct3D 9.x cards are obsolete.

 

Not everything has to be new and shiny to be good.

 

No I get that... I am just talking about the "here and now". So I think we are on the same page. Some people seem to be thinking that A new and shiny = must have NOW and B) that such an investment, which would actually only result in an incremental benefit makes financial sense.

 

I say incremental for the following reason. If I understand how DX 12 is giving the fps upgrade it is doing so, largely, for the graphics rendered by the GPU. Basically the libraries that get processed via the CPU for graphics get reduced. This reduction in CPU overhead results in the increased FPS.

 

SWTOR does more than a little rendering on the CPU. The HeroEngine is set up to move it that way. So if they patched in DX 12, to get the fps jump some are expecting to see, they would actually have to do an almost complete engine overhaul and off load ALL rendering to the GPU. This makes it a situation where they either half *** it and have people say " waaaahhh?!?!?! You went to DX 12 and no increase? U all suck!?!?" Or they spend A LOT of money.

 

Now going to 10 or even 11 would be easier because they still permit extensive use of the CPU for the graphics libraries but even if fully implemented and not half assed these would definitely be incremental increases.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Grayseven]

Its not a matter of whether they will play well together... Its a matter of changing to the engine to work with it. When you change the engine then you have to change how the rest of the code talks to the engine in the aspects impacted. To use your car engine analogy... Its not like swapping the entire engine... Its like putting a turbo on an existing engine with the intent of NOT shredding your engine...

 

A good turbocharger, not one of those cheap kits they sell to teenage tuner kits, also requires a new quality manifold to bolt the turbocharger to, then you'll need all the piping fitted and an intercooler. Then you'll need to tune it somehow, which means a bigger fuel pump, injectors and computer tuning. You also have to look at the "basic" cooling system of your engine you may have to replace that as well...else you will overheat the engine.

 

This all costs time and money, more time and money than you obviously understand.

 

You can't just change a game engine. It just isn't easy. Look how long WoW took just to get flight in the old world and they use a proprietary engine.

 

It takes a stupid amount of effort and cash that may not be worth it.

 

EA/BW is better served optimizing what they have.

[Ghisallo]

You can't just change a game engine. It just isn't easy. Look how long WoW took just to get flight in the old world and they use a proprietary engine.

 

It takes a stupid amount of effort and cash that may not be worth it.

 

EA/BW is better served optimizing what they have.

 

Exactly. Thing is there isn't a lot they can do. They can probably off load a little bit more renderinf onto the GPU but the main issue with the game seems to be, while multi threaded, there is one thread that is pushing the majority of the data. Threading is engine related so you are back to messing with the engine again. In essence they can "tweek" things, and I think they should, but it seems that those crying the loudest want a veritable night vs day transition...tweeking doesn't do that.

[Transcendent]

I say incremental for the following reason. If I understand how DX 12 is giving the fps upgrade it is doing so, largely, for the graphics rendered by the GPU. Basically the libraries that get processed via the CPU for graphics get reduced. This reduction in CPU overhead results in the increased FPS.

 

SWTOR does more than a little rendering on the CPU. The HeroEngine is set up to move it that way. So if they patched in DX 12, to get the fps jump some are expecting to see, they would actually have to do an almost complete engine overhaul and off load ALL rendering to the GPU. This makes it a situation where they either half *** it and have people say " waaaahhh?!?!?! You went to DX 12 and no increase? U all suck!?!?" Or they spend A LOT of money.

 

Now going to 10 or even 11 would be easier because they still permit extensive use of the CPU for the graphics libraries but even if fully implemented and not half assed these would definitely be incremental increases.

 

You are correct in the general understanding of how the Direct X 12 API is getting higher FPS, less overhead.

 

I doubt we would get much of an increase, if any at all, by the move in that direction currently. If anything the largest increase we would probably benefit from is true multi-threading support to actually use the CPU properly. If the game engine was optimized properly, we would most likely see a game performance boost from that.

 

I think the downside here is this, this is a PC game, BioWare have to cater for a much larger audience than one or two different variants of PC builds, and more than one or two variants of OS the game runs on. They'll have those metrics available to them, and if they see a shift in the hardware / software of the users they'll most likely try to optimize the game engine to make better use of that if they feel it's in their interests financially to do so.

 

The point I was trying to make is that, currently I'd doubt (just a guess) that everyone is able to make use of the new "shiny", as a business it wouldn't make sense to potentially cut out part of your customer base.

[Ghisallo]

You are correct in the general understanding of how the Direct X 12 API is getting higher FPS, less overhead.

 

I doubt we would get much of an increase, if any at all, by the move in that direction currently. If anything the largest increase we would probably benefit from is true multi-threading support to actually use the CPU properly. If the game engine was optimized properly, we would most likely see a game performance boost from that.

 

I think the downside here is this, this is a PC game, BioWare have to cater for a much larger audience than one or two different variants of PC builds, and more than one or two variants of OS the game runs on. They'll have those metrics available to them, and if they see a shift in the hardware / software of the users they'll most likely try to optimize the game engine to make better use of that if they feel it's in their interests financially to do so.

 

The point I was trying to make is that, currently I'd doubt (just a guess) that everyone is able to make use of the new "shiny", as a business it wouldn't make sense to potentially cut out part of your customer base.

 

Well I know my performance would take a hit... I get pretty good performance in SWTOR. My CPU benchmarks as one of the best for single threaded processes and with how the engine currently works that means even when things get crazy, at max settings, I am in the 40fps range. Other than a crazy OP OR WF I average between 55-59. Add in the fact they due some rendering in the CPU and my budget GPU doesn't matter... (My choke point when things get crazy is the CPU)

 

However if they went to truly optimized multithreading support I would be in trouble... The CPU is pretty low on multithread bench marks (outside the top 150). Add that all rendering would get sent to my budget video card and... Yeah it would be far less pretty for me.

 

So I wouldn't doubt if they just did some number crunching and said

how many people have hardware that would benefit-(how many would be hurt+how many people would see little change)= yes/no.

 

In essense simple cost/benefit analysis.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Ruskaeth]

With decent DX12 support it could be possible that we are able to see a 24 man raid....

Please, lets see solid 16 man performance before 24 man!

 

+ I think people are way off in thinking they have "revamp" the engine for higher DX support.

[Ghisallo]

Please, lets see solid 16 man performance before 24 man!

 

+ I think people are way off in thinking they have "revamp" the engine for higher DX support.

 

No you have to. I know people want to think/hope it doesn't because they know how hard it can be to change the engine of an existing game but it requires changes.

 

Look at the game engine like Google maps or Mapquest. One of the engine's job is telling the data where to go and what roads to use.

 

Now look at DX as one of the towns with roads the engine can direct data too so the data get to their respective final destinations.

 

The engine doesn't just "know" that a new version of DX has changed their roads, you have to reprogram the engine to know where the new roads are and what you can send on them. If you don't do this you stay on the old routes at best (if they still exist by windows adding stuff to provide backwards compatibility like they did with Vista in the jump from 9 to 10) or break things at worse because a road the engine wants to use simply doesn't exist.

 

So...with that analogy in mind.... What gives the small fps boost in DX 12 is this. Prior versions of DX send portions of the graphics library to the CPU to be processed. DX12 wants to send all of the data to the GPU. This gives the CPU headroom which, with a decent enough video card, gives better fps because you don't have two different choke points.

 

So if you don't tell the engine "hey Engine, you can now just send graphics to the GPU" it won't send the data to the GPU it will still try to send those same graphics libraries to the CPU.

 

THEN this is even more complicated in SWTOR because the graphic libraries they send to the CPU get sent in a single thread with other data (SWTOR's multithreading isn't well optimized BUT admittedly truly multithreading something as complex as an MMO is a PITA). You can't just split data in a single thread, that's why it is called a single thread... So now you have to change the engine so it does far better multithreading and one, or more, of those multiple threads have to be designated exclusively to send the libraries to the GPU and all of the libraries have to be assigned to these thread(s).

 

There are other issues as well BUT this was the easiest one for me to explain.

 

So yes it would require an engine revamp.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Ghisallo

[MasterFeign]

If they're willing to take the plunge for a better optimized system, this could in turn interest people in sticking or joining the game, as it would mean a lot less lag for people to deal with, among other things.

 

Or I at least would hope that it would be a domino effect. Improve one thing, and the rest follows...

 

But I'm no business strategist... Why pay for improved long term development when you get a surge in short term revenue, kind of thing.

[Icestar]

do they shut down SWTOR from lack of support because they can't keep up or do they do it .

 

There are no cartel coins to milk the community with in updating the engine so I guess we are stuck with what we got until they pull the plug.

 

I wish that I did not feel this way, but sadly I do.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Icestar

[Ghisallo]

If they're willing to take the plunge for a better optimized system, this could in turn interest people in sticking or joining the game, as it would mean a lot less lag for people to deal with, among other things.

 

Or I at least would hope that it would be a domino effect. Improve one thing, and the rest follows...

 

But I'm no business strategist... Why pay for improved long term development when you get a surge in short term revenue, kind of thing.

 

The thing is you do not do something like this saying "revamp it and hopefully they will come." You do NOT take a "plunge" with a product that is literally hundreds of millions of dollars in investment.

 

This change would not show a clear benefit for all players, because there are a lot of us with no lag and good fps and yes even at max settings. As it would take up a substantial chuck of their budget they need to look at these numbers like Mr Spock and say " is the benefit worth the cost"?

 

This would be a long term and not inexpensive project that would mean less new content...so many of the people complaining about the lag now would just complain about the lack of new content so you can't even argue that making a change that fails a logical cost/benefit analysis would at least eliminate subjective QQ... They would just QQ about something else.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Transcendent]

So I wouldn't doubt if they just did some number crunching and said

 

how many people have hardware that would benefit-(how many would be hurt+how many people would see little change)= yes/no.

 

In essense simple cost/benefit analysis.

 

Pretty much this right here. It's a more pragmatic approach to take, and the one I'd look at. As much as I'd like new shiny stuff

[Toweleeeie]

More likely to see a swtor 2.

[Forren-Midosea]

Hello BW. DX12 is a thing. Async shaders and async computate, physics etc. DX9 support will be dropped very soon. Maybe its time do redo some things?

[FlyingUsPoo]

They should include recoding to ensure it's compatible to run on D-Wave's X-2 Quantum Computer too.

 

It should be noted that DirectX 11(the version that's been reigning king for the last six years) was announced in July of 08 then released to developers at the end of that year -2 years before the beta. Bioware gave it a pass and it was still in a development phase when changes like that wouldn't have been a budgeting cluster-fu*k.

 

Good Luck with your campaign!

[FlyingUsPoo]

DX9 support will be dropped very soon. Maybe its time do redo some things?

Direct X doesn't have an end of life cycle like some of Microsoft's other products. The API is fully backwards compatible. You can still make calls to DirectX 5 functions from any version of released after it. Its one of the main reasons it caught on so quickly among programmers.

[xordevoreaux]

Direct X doesn't have an end of life cycle like some of Microsoft's other products. The API is fully backwards compatible. You can still make calls to DirectX 5 functions from any version of released after it. Its one of the main reasons it caught on so quickly among programmers.

 

This, and you'd lose part of the user base. My tower runs DX-12, but my laptop, while it was higher-end several years ago, is stuck on DX-11. I'm also sure there's plenty of players squeaking by playing the game with DX9 on $400 5-year-old Wal-Mart laptops whose integrated graphics don't support DX-12.

Edited May 19, 2016 by xordevoreaux

[tharbison]

I think the game looks pretty shiny and sexy already! While I'm not a raider, or pvp'r, I can't say I've really experienced any performance issues. Sure the game is starting to show it's age, but c'mon, it's like what, almost 10 years now since development started.

 

If it were making more $$$, I could see the justification for some major performance updates. But it isn't - I have a feeling players are lucky to be getting the content we are.

 

EA is a business. It puts any investment into where it forecasts the best returns based on the data it has. Not to slight it - but that's why we've seen so much development around Cartel Market packs & items. THAT'S where they see a big return on their investment.

Edited May 19, 2016 by tharbison

[Tsillah]

WOW was just example but other game with a smaller player base then wow have done it, if you need me to prove it why there is i don't need to prove any thing i only play two games now wow and SWTOR both are awesome games i have played both form beta , while i played other games long the way . i hate to see this go which can happen at any time .

 

why do you seem so dead against it ?.

 

Or even mantle support for the AMD players .

 

cya

 

You're being a douche to everyone who says something you don't like, but let's be real here. WoW is just about the worst example you can use, because they do make a ton more money on that game. Now if you want people to believe your claim, then it's a wise thing to come with examples that are not WoW.

 

So please, I am interested, which other MMOs are out there that are not WoW, that have upgraded? I really want to know. Because you see, I doubt very much that BW has the financial backing from EA to do this, but if it at all possible I'd love them to upgrade the game.

[Tsetso]

You're being a douche to everyone who says something you don't like, but let's be real here. WoW is just about the worst example you can use, because they do make a ton more money on that game. Now if you want people to believe your claim, then it's a wise thing to come with examples that are not WoW.

 

So please, I am interested, which other MMOs are out there that are not WoW, that have upgraded? I really want to know. Because you see, I doubt very much that BW has the financial backing from EA to do this, but if it at all possible I'd love them to upgrade the game.

 

I think Ultima Online upgraded their clients at least 2 times but it's 19 years old game so it's understandable.

[GelstonJ]

Some of you are responding to posts from January of 2015.

[Forren-Midosea]

You're being a douche to everyone who says something you don't like, but let's be real here. WoW is just about the worst example you can use, because they do make a ton more money on that game. Now if you want people to believe your claim, then it's a wise thing to come with examples that are not WoW.

 

So please, I am interested, which other MMOs are out there that are not WoW, that have upgraded? I really want to know. Because you see, I doubt very much that BW has the financial backing from EA to do this, but if it at all possible I'd love them to upgrade the game.

You know why WoW was getting so much money? Because they (Blizzard) were giving more and more real deal content to their game, also including engine updates so people can utilitize their desktops to full. Look at wow. It can run dx11 on 150 fps with quad cpu and newer mid range video card in fullhd. Here, because of dx9, you wont even get such numbers with same stuff. I would come back to the game, and i will come back, when they will add some new content for raiders, or will update the game engine.

[Forren-Midosea]

Some of you are responding to posts from January of 2015.

 

I am aware of this and i did that on purpose.

[tharbison]

Some of you are responding to posts from January of 2015.

 

Must be a slow day!

[dr_mike]

Some of you are responding to posts from January of 2015.

 

Must be a slow day!

 

Got a great website to introduce you all to. It's called Google. You may have heard about it. You type keywords into it and it searchs for what you've typed.

 

I wonder what would happen if I tried to search for 'swtor dx12'

 

Guess what? It points to this thread.

 

Many folks use it to find answers to their questions. Other folks just troll those who do so.

Edited May 19, 2016 by dr_mike