Eric, you guys need to learn how a slot machine is supposed to work..

[Draqsko]

Only ones defending this change are the price-gougers anyway. There's no point trying to debate it with you lot. One can only hope the outcry is big enough that BioWare re-adjusts the (faux) slot machine so there's a reason to spin it. y'know, like I said, like a REAL slot machine

 

To be fair, Crinn isn't a price gouger and doesn't even really sell crap on the GTN. I think I've seen his name on the GTN on like 2 occasions maybe, but definately not one of those posting pages and pages of mats.

 

Doesn't dismiss your point but fair is fair, Crinn's definately not a GTN trader so he didn't have an axe to grind with the machine in that respect. The majority of the defenders are price gougers though, even funnier is seeing some of them admit to abusing the crap out of that machine while calling for nerfs to it.

[Heat-Wave]

Go to the local casino, put in some dollars in the slots, and then go ***** at one of the guards when you don't win

 

At the casino, you have a chance to win the jackpot, and it does happen, I've seen it...

 

The quarter slot machine can and does pay out a million dollars from time to time... it just takes a lot of plays to get there and on average will take in $1.1 million for each million it pays out.

 

But to that lucky winner, it does pay a million.

 

If there was a 1 in 600 chance of this machine dropping 500 JJ, I'd be more interested in playing it.

[Heavensrun]

it's been said in many threads...a slot machine has to have a CHANCE of getting you profit...the big prize...and keep you WANTING to play.

 

As usual you guys OVER-nerfed the thing...the 45ish% to even get another chip is absolutely asinine...if you wanna nerf the other drop rates..fine (though they're a tad overdone too.) But seriously, these "faux" slot machines are nothing of the sort. And if this is how you're going to handle any possible future (faux) slot-machines, then don't bother.

 

I could expand on that but others have already said more than I could about why this nerf is ridiculous and WAY over-blown.

 

Oh and to those that will say "did we really need ANOTHER thread?" I say this; YES we do. We need the forums OVERFLOWING with these threads. BioWare needs to tone-done this nerf and actually make this (faux) slot-machine work like a slot-machine is SUPPOSED too...at the very least.

 

Not that I don't also think the slot was overnerfed, but....you do realize that slot machines in real life are a huge scam designed to suck gullible people's money out of their pockets, right?

[Tsillah]

This nerf is a huge frigging nerf. So big it almost blocks the sun...

 

and the reason for that is that the slot machines were a huge frigging mistake. So big it almost blocked the sun.

 

Apparenlty exaggerations are needed here to make a point.

 

I could also have said that the nerf is just as big as the mistake, but nobody would read that here I guess.

 

In all honesty, the more threads are made the more it shows how a bunch of 5-year olds got their toy taken away...a toy they should never have had in the first place and that was the mistake.

 

These slot machines were the economical equivalent of giving a bipolar teenager a gun to play with. Of course it was taken away.

 

Go ahead...feel free to be upset with my comments. I just think the reactions to this are completely ridiculous but you are allowed to have them of course, so I won't say that you can't post all this rampant expression of greed...just saying it doesn't do any good.

[Suromir]

Not that I don't also think the slot was overnerfed, but....you do realize that slot machines in real life are a huge scam designed to suck gullible people's money out of their pockets, right?

 

Yet another who doesn't understand how slot machines actually work. You can very well come away making a lot of money on slots. That is rare though, and is why the casino's make so much off them...But that chance is there. There is no such chance with these (faux) machines....

 

so if you're going to compare the rarity of winning with (real) slot machines..at least be accurate about it. Which you're not.

 

When I went to the local casino's I only played slots...now I've only been a handful of times but as of last time I actually went to the Casino I am a couple hundred dollars ahead.

 

That can NEVER be the case with these (faux) slot machines. Hence my point.

 

Yes they gave too much at first. Yes drops rates/etc needed "tweaked". But what they did was massive overkill to the point there's no reason to actually use it...except MAYBE to max rep..but with the massive nerf to cert drop rate..even that is (almost) pointless. At the very least the chance to actually hit SOMETHING needs to be higher than it is...at the very least.

[Suromir]

This nerf is a huge frigging nerf. So big it almost blocks the sun...

 

and the reason for that is that the slot machines were a huge frigging mistake. So big it almost blocked the sun.

 

Apparenlty exaggerations are needed here to make a point.

 

I could also have said that the nerf is just as big as the mistake, but nobody would read that here I guess.

 

In all honesty, the more threads are made the more it shows how a bunch of 5-year olds got their toy taken away...a toy they should never have had in the first place and that was the mistake.

 

These slot machines were the economical equivalent of giving a bipolar teenager a gun to play with. Of course it was taken away.

 

Go ahead...feel free to be upset with my comments. I just think the reactions to this are completely ridiculous but you are allowed to have them of course, so I won't say that you can't post all this rampant expression of greed...just saying it doesn't do any good.

 

And I'd say your opinion was valid if it wasn't hidden among trolling (personal insults to those speaking out from either side.)

 

4/10 for that...try harder. And if you actually want to make a point, do so without trolling others. (the personal insults if you can't figure out why it's trolling)

[Andryah]

Cliff Notes Version of how slots work in the US: http://www.gamblersbookcase.com/Slots-Math.htm

 

Basically, the drop (the amount the casino expects to yield from slot plays over time) = ~5%

The other 95% goes back to players in the form of winnings. Of course some players win big, others play and play and come out about even, and others lose their backsides... depending on random luck.

 

Had they designed the slots to roughly follow real world casino slot odds... they would not have had to "fix it" to begin with, and they would not have severely broken it after the fact.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Andryah

[Tsillah]

And I'd say your opinion was valid if it wasn't hidden among trolling (personal insults to those speaking out from either side.)

 

4/10 for that...try harder. And if you actually want to make a point, do so without trolling others. (the personal insults if you can't figure out why it's trolling)

 

Call it trolling if you want but to me all this whining about slot machines really creates those images in my head because I find it beyond childish. If having that opinion is trolling, then so be it.

 

I am just being honest about how I feel. I am not just devising something to trigger people if that clarifies it. I think it's absolutely ridiculous that people are upset about losing something they should've never had in the first place because it would potentially destroy a big part of the game economy.

 

I will even underline this by honestly saying to you that even though I have a slot machine or two actually, I have in fact never even used it. Not once. Originally I didn't know what it was for. When I found out how ridiculous it was I decided against using it. Make of that what you will but I certainly am not just trying to trigger people although I understand it might because people tend to be easily offended. So be it.

 

I stand by it that I find the original incarnation of this slot machine was an abberration and I am glad with its early demise and specifically people who are immensely angry at the loss of this are to me as I described. Not to troll people but because that's what I really think about it.

[Andryah]

Call it trolling if you want but to me all this whining about slot machines really creates those images in my head because I find it beyond childish. If having that opinion is trolling, then so be it.

 

I am just being honest about how I feel. I am not just devising something to trigger people if that clarifies it. I think it's absolutely ridiculous that people are upset about losing something they should've never had in the first place because it would potentially destroy a big part of the game economy.

 

I will even underline this by honestly saying to you that even though I have a slot machine or two actually, I have in fact never even used it. Not once. Originally I didn't know what it was for. When I found out how ridiculous it was I decided against using it. Make of that what you will but I certainly am not just trying to trigger people although I understand it might because people tend to be easily offended. So be it.

 

I stand by it that I find the original incarnation of this slot machine was an abberration and I am glad with its early demise and specifically people who are immensely angry at the loss of this are to me as I described. Not to troll people but because that's what I really think about it.

 

I think most players would agree, myself included, that the loot table and drop rates initially deployed on the slot machine needed some adjustment. Most of us expected it would be adjusted.

 

But here is where it gets absurd ---> Frankly... what Eric said would be changed, and is in fact reflected in the patch notes =/= what went live with this weeks patch. THAT is what most people are reacting to here... NOT the nerfing of Jawa Junk drop rates...... but rather the draconian nerf to everything except rep tokens, which were modestly adjusted upwards.

 

How much the first incarnation of the slots would affect the economy long term is open to debate and discussion. Nerfing the slot to the point where only complete clueless fools would ever put coins into it again is much less open to debate and discussion really.

 

TL;DR two wrongs do not make a right, not even at Bioware. It's a compound disaster which for many players (myself included) has destroyed any real level of trust in anything Eric and staff say moving forward.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Andryah

[HelinCarnate]

Before the nerf, you could easily get jawa junk for around 1000 credits after you sell back all the rep items. On top of that you got a bunch of scrap and certificates that brought down prices to the point where BW decided they were too low. Makes sense to me. So they nerf it to the point where on average you drop more than 100,000 credits to get 1 piece of jawa junk and about the same odds for other scrap and almost no chance for a certificate. So instead of making adjustments to where it would still be attractive to some as a credit sink, they nerf it to the point where people wont even use it because it is just throwing money away.

 

If they really understood how a slot machine is supposed to work, they would up the drop rate on certificates to about .5%. That way you still end up losing in the long run, but you can get lucky and come out ahead in the short term.

Edited January 23, 2015 by HelinCarnate

[Andryah]

Before the nerf, you could easily get jawa junk for around 1000 credits after you sell back all the rep items. On top of that you got a bunch of scrap and certificates that brought down prices to the point where BW decided they were too low. Makes sense to me. So they nerf it to the point where on average you drop more than 100,000 credits to get 1 piece of jawa junk and about the same odds for other scrap and almost no chance for a certificate. So instead of making adjustments to where it would still be attractive to some as a credit sink, they nerf it to the point where people wont even use it because it is just throwing money away.

 

Actually, under the current loot table... you will spend, on average, 750K in coins per Jawa Junk drop.

 

And Certs are only half as likely to drop as Jawa Junk now.. so that means, on average, 1.5M credits per Cert now.

 

The Walker.... heh... at current loot table %... on average, that will cost you 75M credits.

 

Oh.. and loss rate on the slot ----> now 45% to lose a coin and gain nothing.

 

Economically, the slots should not earn clear credit profits, nor losses. They should be neutral, such that the only thing lost is time playing the slots --- in exchange for items of value... just like every other time based endeavor in an MMO.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Andryah

[HelinCarnate]

Was just using my personal results as a basis for the numbers.

 

Before nerf. Result of 1000 coins

 

500k spent

Green rep x 114 x500 credits =57,000

Blue rep x 105 x1000 credits =105,000

Purple rep x 67 x2500 credits =167,500

Total 500000-329500 =170,500 as cost for leftovers of

Scrap x 118

Droid parts x 121

Jawa Junk x 150

Certificates x 31

 

After nerf. Result of 1000 coins

750k spent

Green rep x 215 x500 credits =107,500

Blue rep x 133 x1000 credits = 133,000

Purple rep x68 x 2500 credits =170,000

Total 750,000-410,500 = 339,500 as cost for leftovers of

Scrap x 2

Droid parts x1

Jawa Junk x 3

Certificates x 0

[wolfyde]

Economically, the slots should not earn clear credit profits, nor losses. They should be neutral, such that the only thing lost is time playing the slots --- in exchange for items of value... just like every other time based endeavor in an MMO.

 

Even a slight loss of credits, in line with the real world standard of around 90% return rate, would have been perfectly acceptable for most people I think.

 

You can't but marvel with incredulity at how much of a double debacle BW created with this, both in the initial decision to include items with economic value in the payout, and worse, with the rendering virtually worthless of the item they collected a week's worth of, no doubt increased, sales from.

 

They had a chance to create goodwill by adding something new and fun to the game, by leaving the jawa stuff out of it from the start and providing the machine with a loot table of desirable cosmetic items.

But through sheer lack of foresight, one can assume, they managed to p-off and lose the trust of a large portion of the very people making up a large part of their revenue stream.

Edited January 23, 2015 by wolfyde

[BuriDogshin]

They added a mount…

That mount is a slap in the face. No, it's THREE slaps in the face:

 

Slap 1: It's an ugly reskin of an ugly mount you can buy for 100K.

Slap 2: It's got a 90% movement speed.

Slap 3: you are probably never going to get it.

[Andryah]

Even a slight loss of credits, in line with the real world standard of around 90% return rate, would have been perfectly acceptable for most people I think.

 

You can't but marvel with incredulity at how much of a double debacle BW created with this, both in the initial decision to include items with economic value in the payout, and worse, with the rendering virtually worthless of the item they collected a week's worth of, no doubt increased, sales from.

 

They had a chance to create goodwill by adding something new and fun to the game, by leaving the jawa stuff out of it from the start and providing the machine with a loot table of desirable cosmetic items.

But through sheer lack of foresight, one can assume, they managed to p-off and lose the trust of a large portion of the very people making up a large part of their revenue stream.

 

Very much agree with you wolfyde

[BuriDogshin]

and we understand that you need to get your trolling in.

Trolling is its own reward. Getting people upset is the ultimate goal. There need be no other.

Seriously, this is what psych studies have found.

[wolfyde]

Very much agree with you wolfyde

 

Hurray! Let's have a party in my Stronghold, we'll put on party hats, put on some music on the jukebox and we can play the slot mach... oh, right...

[Zoom_VI]

The purpose of a slot machine is to separate fools from their money, if its making the fools money then its not working properly.

[wolfyde]

Trolling is its own reward. Getting people upset is the ultimate goal. There need be no other.

Seriously, this is what psych studies have found.

 

It puzzles me why people react to trolls in the first place; there's an ignore button after all.

( It has served me well the past couple of days )

[Tsillah]

I think most players would agree, myself included, that the loot table and drop rates initially deployed on the slot machine needed some adjustment. Most of us expected it would be adjusted.

 

But here is where it gets absurd ---> Frankly... what Eric said would be changed, and is in fact reflected in the patch notes =/= what went live with this weeks patch. THAT is what most people are reacting to here... NOT the nerfing of Jawa Junk drop rates...... but rather the draconian nerf to everything except rep tokens, which were modestly adjusted upwards.

 

How much the first incarnation of the slots would affect the economy long term is open to debate and discussion. Nerfing the slot to the point where only complete clueless fools would ever put coins into it again is much less open to debate and discussion really.

 

TL;DR two wrongs do not make a right, not even at Bioware. It's a compound disaster which for many players (myself included) has destroyed any real level of trust in anything Eric and staff say moving forward.

 

I never said BW was faultless in this, BW has made a long line of dumb mistakes like this starting at the very beginning of the game. Just because I think some people react to it in ridiculous ways doesn't automatically mean that BW made no mistakes. But as you say, two wrongs don't make a right and that goes for the rest of us just as much as it does for BW.

 

As I stated in other threads and maybe even this one, my biggest problem with what BW was not nerfing it but making it too good upon release. If that had happened, this nerf wouldn't have either...and that is still their mistake or poor judgment rather. At the same time it doesn't mean I can't be appalled by the ridiculousness of the over-reactions that exist here. It still is a game and not the end of the world. The reactions are simply disproportionate.

 

As far as trust in BW...well, let's say that ship has sailed for me a long time ago. I've learned to live without it.

[HelinCarnate]

The purpose of a slot machine is to separate fools from their money, if its making the fools money then its not working properly.

 

It is also not working properly if no one plays it because it has no chance to reward said fools with anything of value.

[Tsillah]

It is also not working properly if no one plays it because it has no chance to reward said fools with anything of value.

 

I have to wonder though. I've seen a number of those mounts already on the fleet that came from the slot machines.

 

I realise we have a number of upset people here on the forum, as we often do I might add, but at the same time I get the feeling there are still a bunch of people very much willing to throw credits into those machines.

 

What I don't think is that BW intended this to be as much of a big hit as it became and that's why they hammered it(clearly with a bit of old fashioned panic) so hard.

 

It's an accepted view that most players don't visit the forum. Do you really know what all those players are really doing with those slot machines? I don't. I have no idea if they leave em alone or use the regulary or sporadically. I really have no idea about those numbers. Do you really think you do know?

[TimeDeatH]

Then again this game is an mmo and not a casino simulator....

[wolfyde]

The purpose of a slot machine is to separate fools from their money, if its making the fools money then its not working properly.

 

Efficient operation of a lot machine lies in keeping the players happy so they keep playing, and taking a tiny portion of what they're spending as a profit. (As stated before; the real world sweet spot for this is around 90% return rate)

In return for that they give the player the chance to yes, make money, if they hit the jackpot, because the amount they have to pay out is a mere fraction of what they gradually earned from the combination of people playing.

 

There's of course no 'house' here, no one profits from the credits that are lost whilst playing, but the basic psychology of the fun factor for the person playing remains; with a raw lossrate of 45% it is no longer fun to play the machine.

A real world casino operating their slots at that kind of lossrate would go bankrupt in weeks

(not to mention it's actually illegal in the real world, returnrates have a de facto bottom rate regulated by law)

Edited January 23, 2015 by wolfyde

[TimeDeatH]

Efficient operation of a lot machine lies in keeping the players happy so they keep playing, and taking a tiny portion of what they're spending as a profit. (As stated before; the real world sweet spot for this is around 90% return rate)

In return for that they give the player the chance to yes, make money, if they hit the jackpot, because the amount they have to pay out is a mere fraction of what they gradually earned from the combination of people playing.

 

There's of course no 'house' here, no one profits from the credits that are lost whilst playing, but the basic psychology of the fun factor for the person playing remains; with a raw lossrate of 45% it is no longer fun to play the machine.

A real world casino operating their slots at that kind of lossrate would go bankrupt in weeks

(not to mention it's actually illegal in the real world, returnrates have a de facto bottom rate regulated by law)

 

If you're playing a slot machine that requires you to click in stacks of 99 for fun in an mmo, and youre not having fun. Well I just have no sympathy for you.