Sentinel and Marauder Changes

[Kunovega]

Hey folks,

 

We know there has been concern from the Sentinel and Marauder community about the status of their class, and when they might be receiving changes. Sents and Maras will see changes in update 3.1.1. As a secondary note, it is our plan that in some cases we will also put our minor patches (such as 3.1.1) on PTS. This way we can get some additional testing, especially around class changes.

 

Thanks everyone!

 

-eric

 

Merc DPS survival?

 

They die even faster than a mara; and no one seems to care

[gofortheko]

Unless you fix how easy it is to shut down a mara/sent, its nothing more than fluff.

[omeru]

Hey folks,

 

We know there has been concern from the Sentinel and Marauder community about the status of their class, and when they might be receiving changes. Sents and Maras will see changes in update 3.1.1. As a secondary note, it is our plan that in some cases we will also put our minor patches (such as 3.1.1) on PTS. This way we can get some additional testing, especially around class changes.

 

Thanks everyone!

 

-eric

 

What do you mean with minor class changes? Buffing Shadow-Sin? I wont surprise if you do it since this season 4 is starting with many failures more wont change anything.

[RodneyMcNeely]

I know it's been suggested before, but shouldn't the ability to use Introspection/Channel Hatred to build 30 stacks of Zen/Fury be baseline as opposed to a utility?

 

Having to manage two building resources is fun, don't get me wrong. I enjoy the complexity of it.

 

But not being able to front-load Zen/Fury seems like an unnecessary complication, and I'm wondering if making it baseline would help the class as a whole.

 

Thoughts?

[Aluvi]

What Maras/Sents need to be good again:

 

General Changes

-Defensive Forms should be baseline for all specs. We should not have to take this Utility. Juggs had a similar talent, and it went baseline for them. Do the same for Maras.

-Generating Fury while using Channel hatred should be baseline. If a Utility is required for every spec to function, then that utility is not an option. Make it baseline.

-Predation not tied to the Fury system. Steal the entire Hydraulic Override ability and change the Utility that increases the movespeed from 50% to 80% to also gives us root / knockback / snare / pull immunity and breaks those on use. 45 second base cooldown. This reduces the possible uptime while making that uptime more valuable, and makes it more than what it is now - a root break that every mara / sent must take.

-Along with the predation changes I outlined above, move the utility to increase the movespeed amount and reduce cooldown to the first tier (skillful).

-Undying change.. whether it's the current change (takes no health), or the vanilla version. Usable while stunned and breaks stuns, and gives immunity to all CC / stuns / roots / slows etc for the duration. Also keep in mind, it's cooldown is being increased, so I feel like we should be given something more to compensate than just removing the health cost.

-Overall better self heals. Boost the Utility that gives a heal on Saberward to be a total of 60% hp over the duration, instead of the max of 36% which is it's current.

-Force Camouflage Utility in 2nd tier (currently cleanses) now purges all roots, slows, dots, etc, and grants immunity to all CC / stun / knockback and snare / root effects for it's duration. Exiting the stealth prematurely ends the effect.

-Give us retaliation back, or something to take it's place that is similar (an off the GCD, instant, moderate damage / high rage cost ability). It was a major part of our Gore burst window, and it provided a rage dump in Rage spec.

 

Fury Changes

-A smash that hits reasonably hard again in Fury spec. Reduce the max number of targets back to 5 if you want. I have never in all my time playing since beta, EVER been in a situation where I could actually smash more than 5 targets anyway. Getting 5 people stacked up that close together in pvp long enough to get a smash off is like a once in 1000+ hours of play occurrence. Otherwise this spec is fine if we get some of the general changes outlined above.

 

Annihilation Changes

-A better way to spread dots in Annihilation, and maybe stronger / longer lasting dots. Increase the size of smash or something, or give us an ability to replace it entirely.

-Make Rupture tick every second like it used to, but make the total damage do just slightly more than it currently does. This allows for more heals from the dot if it crits without increasing our dps too much.

-Maybe 2% heal on dot crit was OP for it's time, but it would not be overpowered now and would make the spec MUCH more attractive in pvp. Put us back to 2%.

 

Carnage Changes

-Using Ravage while in Carnage spec grants "immobility" to the caster as well as rooting the victim. Immobility makes the caster immune to all physics abilities (pull, push, knockback, etc) while Ravage is being cast. This is fair because it can still be avoided using things like egress and hard stuns / CCs.

-Ravage in Carnage needs to hit harder to be worth using. Using Ravage is like putting a big "interrupt / stun / cc / knock me back NOW" sign on your head. It does not do enough damage to justify this currently. It is also extremely difficult to get a Clashing Blast in after the Ravage due to server latency and the bug with alacrity reducing both the cast time of Ravage AND the duration of your Gore window. In fact, using a Massacre + Blast is almost always preferable to casting Ravage now. Buff Ravage damage.. at the very least in Carnage, by about 20-30%. Fix the alacrity bug.

-Gore needs to go back to the 4.5s window (not respecting the GCD) or to a 6 second window (while respecting the GCD) and do a decent amount of damage. It wasn't overpowered before and it wouldn't be OP now. This will allow us to reliably get in a Blast after Ravage and make the ability more viable again, or to use Massacre / Blast / Throw within one window. I do not think this will be game breaking at all, but it might put us on par with other burst specs for Ranked pvp.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Aluvi

[AncientSithEvil]

Everything this guy just said is exactly what sentinel/marauders need to be on par with the other classes. Until these changes occur this class will continue to seem non existent and will be disfavored in Raids, and for the very few that play them in PVP ranked/regs, they will stay the main targeted class to be globalled due to there sever lack of mobility, and huge vulnerability to all CC

[Bernio]

"" Sents and Maras will see changes in update 3.1.1 ""

 

What your guess when this update will be introduced?

I just canceled my subscription but I really really wanted back to SWTOR so maybe this will be my last chance.

[BurnedRemains]

What Maras/Sents need to be good again:

 

General Changes

-Defensive Forms should be baseline for all specs. We should not have to take this Utility. Juggs had a similar talent, and it went baseline for them. Do the same for Maras.

-Generating Fury while using Channel hatred should be baseline. If a Utility is required for every spec to function, then that utility is not an option. Make it baseline.

-Predation not tied to the Fury system. Steal the entire Hydraulic Override ability and change the Utility that increases the movespeed from 50% to 80% to also gives us root / knockback / snare / pull immunity and breaks those on use. 45 second base cooldown. This reduces the possible uptime while making that uptime more valuable, and makes it more than what it is now - a root break that every mara / sent must take.

-Along with the predation changes I outlined above, move the utility to increase the movespeed amount and reduce cooldown to the first tier (skillful).

-Undying change.. whether it's the current change (takes no health), or the vanilla version. Usable while stunned and breaks stuns, and gives immunity to all CC / stuns / roots / slows etc for the duration. Also keep in mind, it's cooldown is being increased, so I feel like we should be given something more to compensate than just removing the health cost.

-Overall better self heals. Boost the Utility that gives a heal on Saberward to be a total of 60% hp over the duration, instead of the max of 36% which is it's current.

-Force Camouflage Utility in 2nd tier (currently cleanses) now purges all roots, slows, dots, etc, and grants immunity to all CC / stun / knockback and snare / root effects for it's duration. Exiting the stealth prematurely ends the effect.

-Give us retaliation back, or something to take it's place that is similar (an off the GCD, instant, moderate damage / high rage cost ability). It was a major part of our Gore burst window, and it provided a rage dump in Rage spec.

 

Fury Changes

-A smash that hits reasonably hard again in Fury spec. Reduce the max number of targets back to 5 if you want. I have never in all my time playing since beta, EVER been in a situation where I could actually smash more than 5 targets anyway. Getting 5 people stacked up that close together in pvp long enough to get a smash off is like a once in 1000+ hours of play occurrence. Otherwise this spec is fine if we get some of the general changes outlined above.

 

Annihilation Changes

-A better way to spread dots in Annihilation, and maybe stronger / longer lasting dots. Increase the size of smash or something, or give us an ability to replace it entirely.

-Make Rupture tick every second like it used to, but make the total damage do just slightly more than it currently does. This allows for more heals from the dot if it crits without increasing our dps too much.

-Maybe 2% heal on dot crit was OP for it's time, but it would not be overpowered now and would make the spec MUCH more attractive in pvp. Put us back to 2%.

 

Carnage Changes

-Using Ravage while in Carnage spec grants "immobility" to the caster as well as rooting the victim. Immobility makes the caster immune to all physics abilities (pull, push, knockback, etc) while Ravage is being cast. This is fair because it can still be avoided using things like egress and hard stuns / CCs.

-Ravage in Carnage needs to hit harder to be worth using. Using Ravage is like putting a big "interrupt / stun / cc / knock me back NOW" sign on your head. It does not do enough damage to justify this currently. It is also extremely difficult to get a Clashing Blast in after the Ravage due to server latency and the bug with alacrity reducing both the cast time of Ravage AND the duration of your Gore window. In fact, using a Massacre + Blast is almost always preferable to casting Ravage now. Buff Ravage damage.. at the very least in Carnage, by about 20-30%. Fix the alacrity bug.

-Gore needs to go back to the 4.5s window (not respecting the GCD) or to a 6 second window (while respecting the GCD) and do a decent amount of damage. It wasn't overpowered before and it wouldn't be OP now. This will allow us to reliably get in a Blast after Ravage and make the ability more viable again, or to use Massacre / Blast / Throw within one window. I do not think this will be game breaking at all, but it might put us on par with other burst specs for Ranked pvp.

No to the Predation being off fury. That's is just dumb.

[Aluvi]

No to the Predation being off fury. That's is just dumb.

 

Why? Saying something is "just dumb" isn't a reason. Every time we use predation, we are nerfing our damage output. No other class has to make this sacrifice. Tell me how it would be dumb to make this change.

[Zadtro]

Why? Saying something is "just dumb" isn't a reason. Every time we use predation, we are nerfing our damage output. No other class has to make this sacrifice. Tell me how it would be dumb to make this change.

 

Exactly no other classes sacrifice being able to hit stuff just for the ability to move. I was predation like overides, immune thought the duration.

[DrewFromPhilly]

I've seen you in WZs, aluvien, and was wholly unimpressed as you dove into 3+ people by yourself and were soon globaled. If that's the kind of play that this list of ridiculous changes (30% buff to ravage dmg on carnage, paired with some cc immunity? Lol that will never happen) comes from I'm not surprised it's so far off base, tbh. Edited February 9, 2015 by DrewFromPhilly

[Emperor-Norton]

What Maras/Sents need to be good again:

 

General Changes

-Defensive Forms should be baseline for all specs. We should not have to take this Utility. Juggs had a similar talent, and it went baseline for them. Do the same for Maras.

-Generating Fury while using Channel hatred should be baseline. If a Utility is required for every spec to function, then that utility is not an option. Make it baseline.

-Predation not tied to the Fury system. Steal the entire Hydraulic Override ability and change the Utility that increases the movespeed from 50% to 80% to also gives us root / knockback / snare / pull immunity and breaks those on use. 45 second base cooldown. This reduces the possible uptime while making that uptime more valuable, and makes it more than what it is now - a root break that every mara / sent must take.

-Along with the predation changes I outlined above, move the utility to increase the movespeed amount and reduce cooldown to the first tier (skillful).

-Undying change.. whether it's the current change (takes no health), or the vanilla version. Usable while stunned and breaks stuns, and gives immunity to all CC / stuns / roots / slows etc for the duration. Also keep in mind, it's cooldown is being increased, so I feel like we should be given something more to compensate than just removing the health cost.

-Overall better self heals. Boost the Utility that gives a heal on Saberward to be a total of 60% hp over the duration, instead of the max of 36% which is it's current.

-Force Camouflage Utility in 2nd tier (currently cleanses) now purges all roots, slows, dots, etc, and grants immunity to all CC / stun / knockback and snare / root effects for it's duration. Exiting the stealth prematurely ends the effect.

-Give us retaliation back, or something to take it's place that is si milar (an off the GCD, instant, moderate damage / high rage cost ability). It was a major part of our Gore burst window, and it provided a rage dump in Rage spec.

UR that gives total Stun Immunity and breaks Stuns? On top of a Heal comparable to Enraged Defense and Barrier heal? Full bore PT Hold the Line for Maras? AND CC Immunity and purge on Camo? That's really overpowered, as in Mara new FOTM overpowered.

Fury Changes

-A smash that hits reasonably hard again in Fury spec. Reduce the max number of targets back to 5 if you want. I have never in all my time playing since beta, EVER been in a situation where I could actually smash more than 5 targets anyway. Getting 5 people stacked up that close together in pvp long enough to get a smash off is like a once in 1000+ hours of play occurrence. Otherwise this spec is fine if we get some of the general changes outlined above.

The game was moved away from the days of dedicated AOE specs, so I doubt 10k Smashes are coming back (as much as I like the idea of playing old Smash with Furious Strike), considering the current design of Fury. The probable way to change Fury is to give it something to augment it's single target burst. The problem with Fury as I see it is that it can't burst as well as Carnage due to how Carnage gets Gore and Berserk. Fury burst is reliant on Raging Burst, Ravage, and Concentrated Slice, which is such a long time that it really that much of a bursty spec. Fury would be a lot better off imo if it got a much faster Ravage cast (between 1.5 and 2 seconds). As is there is just so much time between it's powerful attacks that it can't Burst effectively.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Emperor-Norton

[g_mK]

Exactly no other classes sacrifice being able to hit stuff just for the ability to move. I was predation like overides, immune thought the duration.

 

Actually, changing predation to be similar to HO outside the fury system could work well for PvP.

[eastevil]

What Maras/Sents need to be good again:

 

General Changes

-Defensive Forms should be baseline for all specs. We should not have to take this Utility. Juggs had a similar talent, and it went baseline for them. Do the same for Maras.

-Generating Fury while using Channel hatred should be baseline. If a Utility is required for every spec to function, then that utility is not an option. Make it baseline.

-Predation not tied to the Fury system. Steal the entire Hydraulic Override ability and change the Utility that increases the movespeed from 50% to 80% to also gives us root / knockback / snare / pull immunity and breaks those on use. 45 second base cooldown. This reduces the possible uptime while making that uptime more valuable, and makes it more than what it is now - a root break that every mara / sent must take.

-Along with the predation changes I outlined above, move the utility to increase the movespeed amount and reduce cooldown to the first tier (skillful).

-Undying change.. whether it's the current change (takes no health), or the vanilla version. Usable while stunned and breaks stuns, and gives immunity to all CC / stuns / roots / slows etc for the duration. Also keep in mind, it's cooldown is being increased, so I feel like we should be given something more to compensate than just removing the health cost.

-Overall better self heals. Boost the Utility that gives a heal on Saberward to be a total of 60% hp over the duration, instead of the max of 36% which is it's current.

-Force Camouflage Utility in 2nd tier (currently cleanses) now purges all roots, slows, dots, etc, and grants immunity to all CC / stun / knockback and snare / root effects for it's duration. Exiting the stealth prematurely ends the effect.

-Give us retaliation back, or something to take it's place that is similar (an off the GCD, instant, moderate damage / high rage cost ability). It was a major part of our Gore burst window, and it provided a rage dump in Rage spec.

 

[.

 

jeezus, what are you trying to do? make maras/sents the new assassins/shadows?

[Vertol]

I would like to see some tweaks between our specs to make them interesting for every playstyle.

 

Fury as a pvp facetank spec with buffs for passive defs, armor, 30% reduction while stunned and buffed DCD with some sort of selfheals.

 

Carnage as a heavy burst spec, with crap mobility for partying with pockethealer. (oh wait, it is already designed this way)

 

And annihilation as a mobile spec. I think even full slow/snare immunity during predation won't make this spec op

 

 

But yeah, in our current state I'll be happy with just one viable spec for pvp

[BurnedRemains]

Why? Saying something is "just dumb" isn't a reason. Every time we use predation, we are nerfing our damage output. No other class has to make this sacrifice. Tell me how it would be dumb to make this change.

Check the thread I made about it.

[Zadtro]

Actually, changing predation to be similar to HO outside the fury system could work well for PvP.

 

Yeah I have said this on many forums. No sacrifice for dps and we can move for more then a second without being rooted or slowed. You jump sorc, sorc speeds away immune to everything and stuns or roots or slow you and thats it, you won't catch him again unless you use every cooldown at your disposal.

[Aluvi]

UR that gives total Stun Immunity and breaks Stuns? On top of a Heal comparable to Enraged Defense and Barrier heal? Full bore PR Hold the Line for Maras? AND CC Immunity and purge on Camo? That's really overpowered, as in Mara new FOTM overpowered.

 

The game was moved away from the days of dedicated AOE specs, so I doubt 10k Smashes are coming back (as much as I like the idea of playing old Smash with Furious Strike), considering the current design of Fury. The probable way to change Fury is to give it something to augment it's single target burst. The problem with Fury as I see it is that it can't burst as well as Carnage due to how Carnage gets Gore and Berserk. Fury burst is reliant on Raging Burst, Ravage, and Concentrated Slice, which is such a long time that it really that much of a bursty spec. Fury would be a lot better off imo if it got a much faster Ravage cast (between 1.5 and 2 seconds). As is there is just so much time between it's powerful attacks that it can't Burst effectively.

 

I put those up fully expecting 70% of them to be ignored. If we get ANY of those it would be a vast improvement. I don't expect the devs to give us even 10% of what I listed. Yes, I realize giving us EVERYTHING would put us almost on the level of madness assassins. They would still beat us in a 1v1 duel though, no question, so ponder that one.

 

You say the game was moved away from aoe specs, yet look at what they have done with sorcs and assassins. Sorcs have TWO specs that do great aoe damage. One does it with a very strong aoe + dots that are spreadable, the other does it with chain lightning which hits as hard as our single target Raging Burst does. On top of that, they are both solid for single target. Not to mention sorcs have an ability that is doing single target enough damage to be decent.. vs 3 or more targets it becomes insanely overpowered. I only want us to be brought in line with the other classes. I play sorc, assassin, marauder, and jugg (or the pub equivalents) in both pve and pvp. A lot of people are holding their breath for a nerf to sorcs / assassins, but I don't think that will happen.

 

Juggs get dot spread with their new aoe.

[Aluvi]

jeezus, what are you trying to do? make maras/sents the new assassins/shadows?

 

Even with every change i listed, sins and shaodws would still easily beat us in 1v1 due to superior self heals and control through stuns. But yes, I'd like to be competitive for ranked. if they arent nerfing other classes, then we need to go to that level.

[Aluvi]

I've seen you in WZs, aluvien, and was wholly unimpressed as you dove into 3+ people by yourself and were soon globaled. If that's the kind of play that this list of ridiculous changes (30% buff to ravage dmg on carnage, paired with some cc immunity? Lol that will never happen) comes from I'm not surprised it's so far off base, tbh.

 

If you have issues with the suggested changes, by all means refute them and explain your stance. If you have issues with me as a player, then I suggest we meet in the outlaws den and duel. 1 million credits to the winner sound fair? Otherwise, stay on topic please.

 

And just for clarification, everyone gets focused down sometimes. Sometimes you break one stun to pop defensive cooldowns, get stunned again a milisecond later, and just eat a death. It happens to everyone. Pointing out one such instance and instantly writing a player off as bad is pretty narrow minded. Come at me bro. I'm off work at 5:30 pm EST tonight. Outlaws Den. Lets do this.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Aluvi

[Mister_Ewing]

- could you guys please give marauder/sentinel an utility that resets dual saber throw / frenzy / force leap upon exiting combat (similar to the juggernaut/guardian utility)

 

- do make defensive forms (build fury when attacked, improves lighsaber forms) baseline

 

- please take predation off fury system & give it a cd; also immunity to movement impairment during it is much needed with so many classes having roots&slows in their rotational abilities; marauder/sentinel needs some uptime on their target (just make it similar to hydraulics or hold the line as it has already been suggested)

 

cheers

[Aluvi]

- could you guys please give marauder/sentinel an utility that resets dual saber throw / frenzy / force leap upon exiting combat (similar to the juggernaut/guardian utility)

 

- do make defensive forms (build fury when attacked, improves lighsaber forms) baseline

 

- please take predation off fury system & give it a cd; also immunity to movement impairment during it is much needed with so many classes having roots&slows in their rotational abilities; marauder/sentinel needs some uptime on their target (just make it similar to hydraulics or hold the line as it has already been suggested)

 

cheers

 

Just those changes alone with the changes to our root and undying currently on PTS would make us much more viable in warzones. I have a very long wishlist, but if we got those core changes you just listed that I also listed, I think that would really go a long ways.

[Zoom_VI]

Just those changes alone with the changes to our root and undying currently on PTS would make us much more viable in warzones. I have a very long wishlist, but if we got those core changes you just listed that I also listed, I think that would really go a long ways.

 

If by "go a long way" you mean "make it so we can 1v4" then yes.

[Mister_Ewing]

If by "go a long way" you mean "make it so we can 1v4" then yes.

 

what do u see as op about my proposed changes?

[Aluvi]

what do u see as op about my proposed changes?

 

I'd like to know this as well. I don't think the saber throw / charge is actually needed, but the predation change and the baseline defensive forms? You still won't beat a PT or an assassin of equal skill 1v1. Probably not a jugg either. You might be able to stay on target long enough during a match to actually be useful though.

 

Unrelated to above post:

I want to clarify - we don't want our predation to give EVERYONE root / slow / knockback/ pull / push immunity for the duration - just us. Some people seem confused about that.