The Contraband Slot Machine

[TUXs]

Okay, first of all - yes. It is absolutely a minority that are upset. I dare you to prove otherwise.

Did some people leave the game over this ridiculous "issue"? Sure. But for you to call it "a lot" is reaching. Even if I grant that a hundred subs left over it (which I think is generous,) that's a drop in the bucket. Don't overestimate your position.

Again, you argue words used by people...how sad.

[DarthDymond]

I find it funny that you and Dymond are more focused on a word I used far more than the bug(s)...

 

Call it whatever you like, it's ridiculous that they had to cancel the event they planned because of this bug 3-months after it was released.

 

Curious...how many people on your Ops teams exploited to get their chest piece? It's not hard to get legit, just want you to realize that having the chest doesn't really mean anything since it was so exploitable for 4+ weeks.

Because no one is disputing the fact that some bugs existed and that some bugs exist now, but we have serious disagreement over whether those bugs were so bad as to make the expansion "horrific" or "horrible" or "sloppy" or whatever or if they were only mildly inconvenient (in the context of normal gameplay).

 

I'm not going to speak for SeventhJedi or anyone else, but personally, when I "focus on a word" here, I'm not arguing semantics, I'm disagreeing with your conclusion about the quality of the expansion.

Edited March 19, 2015 by DarthDymond

[Transcendent]

I believe the majority of people who are complaining are not advocating that the device be returned to its released form.

 

...........

 

Most people are arguing instead for a re-correction towards something sustainable, still a credits sink, but one that's enjoyable to use.

 

..........

 

Its a single item/event that encapsulates much of what can be seen as 'wrong' with the game at present and as such continues to attract attention and concern from some in the community of players.

 

I want it fixed if only because it indicates the development/community team is starting to move in the correct direction with how they approach the game, its players, and their knowledge of the 'format'.

 

Sums it up nicely.

 

Also I'd like to point out that there were fewer players complaining about it being "broken" in the original format, than after the changes were made nerfing it into oblivion. Also I know at least one player who complained on the forums who abused the hell out of it, while demanding it was nerfed, purely so he could profit after the nerf.

 

Typical BioWare though, catering to the 0.005% of the games population and not the majority of the population, while failing to communicate properly.

 

I'm long past the annoyance about what they actually do with this item now, they could delete it from the game forever and I really couldn't care less. The damage by the miscommunication and subsequent actions taken to remedy the erroneous item, and the lack of communication to the players after that action, has sealed my resolution towards further CM purchases.

[DarthDymond]

Typical BioWare though, catering to the 0.005% of the games population and not the majority of the population, while failing to communicate properly.

You make it sound like their approach was:

 

• Community Rep: "Hey, some people on the forum want the CSM's drop rates to be reduced."
  
• Dev: "Oh, okay, well if that's what they want then that's what we'll do."
  

-followed by-

• Community Rep: "Hey, some people on the forum want the CSM's drop rates to be increased."
  
• Dev: "Eh, screw 'em, I don't care about what they want."
  

 

Pretty sure it was more along the lines of:

 

• Community Rep: "Hey, some people on the forum are talking about the CSM's drop rates being problematic"
  
• Dev: "Okay, we'll take a look at our metrics and see if the current rates are throwing things off from where we want them to be. If they are, then we'll change it."
  

-followed by-

• Dev: "Hey, we looked at the CSM drop rates, we determined the drop rates aren't working out the way we wanted, so we're gonna make some changes."
  
• Community Rep: "Okay, I'll put a post on the forum to give them a heads up."
  

-followed by-

• Community Rep: "Hey, some people on the forums are talking about the CSM's new drop rates being problematic."
  
• Dev: "The metrics show they're where we want them."
  
• Community Rep: "Okay, let me know if the numbers change and you want to make another adjustment. We don't usually comment back when people are unhappy about a change unless we're planning to adjust things again."
  

Edited March 19, 2015 by DarthDymond

[TheSeventhJedi]

Again, you argue words used by people...how sad.

 

What else am I supposed to argue? Your argument is made up of words, and to point out the flaws in your argument, obviously I'm going to start with the words.

 

I find it funny that you and Dymond are more focused on a word I used far more than the bug(s)...

 

Call it whatever you like, it's ridiculous that they had to cancel the event they planned because of this bug 3-months after it was released.

 

Curious...how many people on your Ops teams exploited to get their chest piece? It's not hard to get legit, just want you to realize that having the chest doesn't really mean anything since it was so exploitable for 4+ weeks.

 

Zero. But keep your "how sad" and your accusations. You're not doing a good job of making your point, partly because your point is grasping at whatever straws it can to defend an already weak point.

[TUXs]

I'm not arguing semantics, I'm disagreeing with your conclusion about the quality of the expansion.

My opinion. That is my opinion, not my "conclusion". You have your own.

[TUXs]

What else am I supposed to argue? Your argument is made up of words, and to point out the flaws in your argument, obviously I'm going to start with the words.

 

Zero. But keep your "how sad" and your accusations. You're not doing a good job of making your point, partly because your point is grasping at whatever straws it can to defend an already weak point.

What do you want me to tell you? I didn't ask you to argue with me, you did that voluntarily. Your "argument" is over word choices being made to describe how people feel about the expansion, bugs, changes to the slot...how the hell can you argue with my statement that I feel 3.0 was horrible in terms of quality? Disagree if you like, but you're arguing over MY personal take on 3.0. State your own opinion if you want, I don't need you to try to tell me how I feel about it.

[Nitblade]

Okay, first of all - yes. It is absolutely a minority that are upset. I dare you to prove otherwise.

Did some people leave the game over this ridiculous "issue"? Sure. But for you to call it "a lot" is reaching. Even if I grant that a hundred subs left over it (which I think is generous,) that's a drop in the bucket. Don't overestimate your position.

 

I don't have a CSM and never used one so I'm not really touched by the Nerf.

But what got me here is the absolute condescending attitude of BW. If your changes are so clearly warranted it should be simple to come out and EXPLAIN it, COMMUNICATE. Instead we get a flock of Ostriches hiding their head in the sand since December.

 

The CSM wasn't the reason people left in droves, but it was the tipping point.

3.0 was a freaking buggy mess, unplayable for a very sizeable portion of the players. Fact completely ignored by BW for 7 weeks. I am still mad at them for completely shutting down the communication pipes and this thread seems the place to call them out on it so I'm pretty happy it stays on 1st page. And i'll keep helping this page stay on first page till they come out and explain or I ditch my sub.

[DarthDymond]

My opinion. That is my opinion, not my "conclusion". You have your own.

I know it's your opinion, and I know I have my own, my entire post was prefaced on that understanding.

 

A conclusion can be, and often is, an opinion - I didn't say your conclusion / opinion was wrong (it would make no sense to do so, since it is an opinion), I said I disagreed with it (a word I chose specifically because we're talking about differing opinions).

 

If we can't talk about how and why we agree or disagree with respect to our opinions, then that would defeat one of the main purposes of having a discussion forum in the first place.

Edited March 19, 2015 by DarthDymond

[VelRathis]

Yep still no meaningfull communication from Musco et al on this. From the GTN perspective its clear that the last Cartel pack didnt sell well and the liklihood is the next one wont either.

 

Basically the trust between players and BW has evaporated. But to be honest thats what happens when EA comes in and stripmines a good dev based games studio then throws it to the refuse heap once they have ruined the studio's reputation.

[scottocamp]

You make it sound like their approach was:

 

• Community Rep: "Hey, some people on the forum want the CSM's drop rates to be reduced."
  
• Dev: "Oh, okay, well if that's what they want then that's what we'll do."
  

-followed by-

• Community Rep: "Hey, some people on the forum want the CSM's drop rates to be increased."
  
• Dev: "Eh, screw 'em, I don't care about what they want."
  

 

Pretty sure it was more along the lines of:

 

• Community Rep: "Hey, some people on the forum are talking about the CSM's drop rates being problematic"
  
• Dev: "Okay, we'll take a look at our metrics and see if the current rates are throwing things off from where we want them to be. If they are, then we'll change it."
  

-followed by-

• Dev: "Hey, we looked at the CSM drop rates, we determined the drop rates aren't working out the way we wanted, so we're gonna make some changes."
  
• Community Rep: "Okay, I'll put a post on the forum to give them a heads up."
  

-followed by-

• Community Rep: "Hey, some people on the forums are talking about the CSM's new drop rates being problematic."
  
• Dev: "The metrics show they're where we want them."
  
• Community Rep: "Okay, let me know if the numbers change and you want to make another adjustment. We don't usually comment back when people are unhappy about a change unless we're planning to adjust things again."
  

 

Your description of events would be plausible if the metrics adjustment was slight. But you are intentionally glossing over the magnitude of the changes and representing the situation as little more than a minor fine-tuning. There would be no real need to communicate further if a drop rate was changed from 10% to 5% or something along those lines. A 10% to 1/100% drop demands further explanation and communication on an item sold outside of normal gameplay. If BW can post to tell people to continue buying and using a Cartel Market item and can post to inform us of a price increase on the tokens used to operate the Cartel Market item - then they certainly had time to post the full scope of the changes being made to the item.

[TUXs]

I know it's your opinion, and I know I have my own, my entire post was prefaced on that understanding.

 

A conclusion can be, and often is, an opinion - I didn't say your conclusion / opinion was wrong (it would make no sense to do so, since it is an opinion), I said I disagreed with it (a word I chose specifically because we're talking about differing opinions).

 

If we can't talk about how and why we agree or disagree with respect to our opinions, then that would defeat one of the main purposes of having a discussion forum in the first place.

Dymond, you're one of the few people on this forum I have respect for - I enjoy debate with you because you generally present reasons for your beliefs. If you'd like to debate what I found concerning about 3.0, I'd be happy to tell you...but imo, it's one of the worst things to happen to this game and I do feel that overall, it was horrible.

 

First, the good...Disciplines was a GREAT new addition vs. skill trees and Rishi couldn't be any more amazing at the docks...once beyond the docks Rishi becomes a typical planet though...Yavin was disappointing because it's far too small and ignores, or simplifies, some of the major elements that define "Yavin" to me (temples, spirits, history, exploration), but it was enjoyable enough that I had fun there.

 

Now the bad...3.0 though took a decent amount of end game content and made it worthless. It created a content vacuum that Bioware is too slow to fix and I've watched my servers population drop every night I log on. It introduced 2 new Ops that are so over the top in difficulty for SM, that it's ridiculous. It brought numerous bugs that still haunt the game. Balance in PvP has never been so off kilter and PvP was completely ignored by 3.0...a PAID expansion without any PvP content?! Really?! An easy to duplicate "exploit" was left untouched for 4+ weeks, causing many players to be "banned" over it, which upset enough players that I believe many quit because of it. "But they cheated.."...BULL ****! They took a minor shortcut to gearing alts, nothing more. Bioware dangled the carrot long enough that good players bit...and were then banned. Bioware converted all Ult/Elite comms to Basic, only to forget the 55 level Ops rewarded them still. The slot machine was introduced, people freaked out, Bioware said "it's working as intended"...people went out and bought packs until they got one (I did at least), now we have 4 on our guild ship that are never used. Communication has become nearly non-existent. There's no interaction with the community, just statements from them. Feedback from PTS has been ignored (see this thread for a great summary).

 

So yeah...although I have had some fun with 3.0 and I can see the "good" in it, I think that overall, it's been horrible for this game because of how much it has negatively impacted end game content (both PvP and PvE).

Edited March 19, 2015 by TUXs

[DarthDymond]

Your description of events would be plausible if the metrics adjustment was slight. But you are intentionally glossing over the magnitude of the changes and representing the situation as little more than a minor fine-tuning. There would be no real need to communicate further if a drop rate was changed from 10% to 5% or something along those lines. A 10% to 1/100% drop demands further explanation and communication on an item sold outside of normal gameplay. If BW can post to tell people to continue buying and using a Cartel Market item and can post to inform us of a price increase on the tokens used to operate the Cartel Market item - then they certainly had time to post the full scope of the changes being made to the item.

I am not saying the communication was handled right - they should have said "including Jawa Junk" in the patch notes and Eric's post* - my point was that making the change itself was likely not a case of "catering to the 0.005% of the games population and not the majority of the population" but instead motivated by their own internal numbers.

 

With something relatively new like this (and it being a Stronghold deco, a fairly trivial piece of the game which probably didn't get much upfront testing), I could easily see their initial projections being significantly off - especially since it seems like they may have run into a case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand was doing with the Grade 11 mats being added to the Jawa traders around the same time.

 

 

*Of course my full thoughts on the communication is: after Eric's initial post (which was fine) it wasn't handled very well, they should have said "drop rates including Jawa Junk have been reduced" in Eric's second thread and especially in the Patch Notes (a full list of drop items being changed would have been fine too), but we're also talking about the communications surrounding changes to a single Stronghold Decoration, so it's really not that big a deal.

 

[branmakmuffin]

An easy to duplicate "exploit" was left untouched for 4+ weeks, causing many players to be "banned" over it, which upset enough players that I believe many quit because of it. "But they cheated.."...BULL ****! They took a minor shortcut to gearing alts, nothing more. Bioware dangled the carrot long enough that good players bit...and were then banned.

Are you saying some (many?) players disciplined for that exploit took advantage of it because they couldn't help themselves? That sure looks like what you are saying.

[TUXs]

Are you saying some (many?) players disciplined for that exploit took advantage of it because they couldn't help themselves? That sure looks like what you are saying.

Nope. I'm saying players saw an easy way to help gear alts and they took it. It was minor and should have been commented on but not acted on (bans) by Bioware, especially considering the ultimate comms were still dropping from 55 Ops. And if it was so big as to warrant bans, it should have been fixed sooner by Bioware.

[jstankaroslo]

Dymond, you're one of the few people on this forum I have respect for - I enjoy debate with you because you generally present reasons for your beliefs. If you'd like to debate what I found concerning about 3.0, I'd be happy to tell you...but imo, it's one of the worst things to happen to this game and I do feel that overall, it was horrible.

 

First, the good...Disciplines was a GREAT new addition vs. skill trees and Rishi couldn't be any more amazing at the docks...once beyond the docks Rishi becomes a typical planet though...Yavin was disappointing because it's far too small and ignores, or simplifies, some of the major elements that define "Yavin" to me (temples, spirits, history, exploration), but it was enjoyable enough that I had fun there.

 

Now the bad...3.0 though took a decent amount of end game content and made it worthless. It created a content vacuum that Bioware is too slow to fix and I've watched my servers population drop every night I log on. It introduced 2 new Ops that are so over the top in difficulty for SM, that it's ridiculous. It brought numerous bugs that still haunt the game. Balance in PvP has never been so off kilter and PvP was completely ignored by 3.0...a PAID expansion without any PvP content?! Really?! An easy to duplicate "exploit" was left untouched for 4+ weeks, causing many players to be "banned" over it, which upset enough players that I believe many quit because of it. "But they cheated.."...BULL ****! They took a minor shortcut to gearing alts, nothing more. Bioware dangled the carrot long enough that good players bit...and were then banned. Bioware converted all Ult/Elite comms to Basic, only to forget the 55 level Ops rewarded them still. The slot machine was introduced, people freaked out, Bioware said "it's working as intended"...people went out and bought packs until they got one (I did at least), now we have 4 on our guild ship that are never used. Communication has become nearly non-existent. There's no interaction with the community, just statements from them. Feedback from PTS has been ignored (see this thread for a great summary).

 

So yeah...although I have had some fun with 3.0 and I can see the "good" in it, I think that overall, it's been horrible for this game because of how much it has negatively impacted end game content (both PvP and PvE).

 

this ^^ is so well put, that I had to quote it.

Like I wrote in another thread: this is a good game that seems being wasted by wrong decisions and very sloppy, almost horrible implementation

[MeNaCe-NZ]

 

Also I'd like to point out that there were fewer players complaining about it being "broken" in the original format, than after the changes were made nerfing it into oblivion. Also I know at least one player who complained on the forums who abused the hell out of it, while demanding it was nerfed, purely so he could profit after the nerf.

 

 

Whilst I don't think the fix they implemented was the correct one the lack of complaints over the initial machine was somewhat to be expected when people get given a money tree.

 

Those of us that did complain ( or point out the issues with the machine more to the point ) were called all sorts of names etc. around our apparent material greed etc. ( by the people wanting to keep their money tree ironically enough ).

 

It was no different to those of us that called out the cheaters around the exploit ( that TUXs decided to beat the dead horse over by raising it again here so I may as well run with it ) being attacked by many of the guilty and those that thought for some reason to defend them. That was also an issue that whilst fixed and dealt with just as slots were, was never fixed satisfactorily.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Dymond, you're one of the few people on this forum I have respect for - I enjoy debate with you because you generally present reasons for your beliefs. If you'd like to debate what I found concerning about 3.0, I'd be happy to tell you...but imo, it's one of the worst things to happen to this game and I do feel that overall, it was horrible.

 

First, the good...Disciplines was a GREAT new addition vs. skill trees and Rishi couldn't be any more amazing at the docks...once beyond the docks Rishi becomes a typical planet though...Yavin was disappointing because it's far too small and ignores, or simplifies, some of the major elements that define "Yavin" to me (temples, spirits, history, exploration), but it was enjoyable enough that I had fun there.

 

Now the bad...3.0 though took a decent amount of end game content and made it worthless. It created a content vacuum that Bioware is too slow to fix and I've watched my servers population drop every night I log on. It introduced 2 new Ops that are so over the top in difficulty for SM, that it's ridiculous. It brought numerous bugs that still haunt the game. Balance in PvP has never been so off kilter and PvP was completely ignored by 3.0...a PAID expansion without any PvP content?! Really?! An easy to duplicate "exploit" was left untouched for 4+ weeks, causing many players to be "banned" over it, which upset enough players that I believe many quit because of it. "But they cheated.."...BULL ****! They took a minor shortcut to gearing alts, nothing more. Bioware dangled the carrot long enough that good players bit...and were then banned. Bioware converted all Ult/Elite comms to Basic, only to forget the 55 level Ops rewarded them still. The slot machine was introduced, people freaked out, Bioware said "it's working as intended"...people went out and bought packs until they got one (I did at least), now we have 4 on our guild ship that are never used. Communication has become nearly non-existent. There's no interaction with the community, just statements from them. Feedback from PTS has been ignored (see this thread for a great summary).

 

So yeah...although I have had some fun with 3.0 and I can see the "good" in it, I think that overall, it's been horrible for this game because of how much it has negatively impacted end game content (both PvP and PvE).

 

Based on this post alone I find it almost hilarious that you are still playing this game.

[Kurin]

So, a month ago, this thread was beaten to death. Are you guys going to let it go already? Maybe at the livestream Q&A or the next cantina event (LA in April) you can attend and get the answer you seek.

[TUXs]

Based on this post alone I find it almost hilarious that you are still playing this game.

Why is that? My ability to enjoy the game isn't impacted by my ability to be honest about it. I LOVE the PACKERS, but I hate that they cut AJ Hawk - 2 years ago when Clay was out, AJ was our entire defense...but I still love the PACKERS.

[branmakmuffin]

Nope. I'm saying players saw an easy way to help gear alts and they took it.

And these hypothetical players, did they know about the exploit? If they did, what possible excuse is there? "Yeah, I knew it was against the rules but I, uh, I uh ... uh .... well ..."

 

If they knew about it, there is no excuse.

[Reno_Tarshil]

And these hypothetical players, did they know about the exploit? If they did, what possible excuse is there? "Yeah, I knew it was against the rules but I, uh, I uh ... uh .... well ..."

 

If they knew about it, there is no excuse.

 

"B-b-b-but we exploited before and nothing happened!"

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Why is that? My ability to enjoy the game isn't impacted by my ability to be honest about it. I LOVE the PACKERS, but I hate that they cut AJ Hawk - 2 years ago when Clay was out, AJ was our entire defense...but I still love the PACKERS.

 

*shrug* you just come across overly negative to the point one wonders why you even bother playing. In saying that I find myself when I bother trying to actually do content these days that very few people seem to do end game content and spend the majority of their time in fleet chatting, at least during apac time this seems to be the case.

[DarthDymond]

-snip for length-

Thanks TUXs, you're definitely one of the posters I respect and enjoy discussions with most on these forums - you've always been my go-to example of how most people who are critical (even strongly critical) of this game aren't 'haters' or trolls.

 

I understand and appreciate your take on the expansion, but as I've said, I have a drastically different opinion of it overall: I think it was a good addition to a great game, whose strengths outweigh its faults.

 

I do think there are faults present, don't get me wrong: while Ops needed to have their difficulty upped overall, I think they could have done a smoother job of it - SMs still could have benefited from being made a bit harder than they previously had been, but the biggest step-up should have been at the HM level. There were bugs that absolutely should have been corrected during pre-release testing (I do not believe that the Ravagers exploit being left for so long is a reason to say that exploiters shouldn't have been banned, it just means the BW is guilty of their own, separate offense). And even for a PVE-focused game like this one (I think of PVP as one more mini-game in SWTOR) PVP has certainly been neglected too often in terms of new maps / modes (I don't really associate that with the expansion in particular, though, their pacing problem is a broader SWTOR issue).

 

Personally, I strongly preferred the old Skill Trees to the Discipline system (but I do understand the benefits of the change, and after accepting that it was coming I was happy at how they actually implemented it, so I'm not sure I'd really qualify it as a 'fault'). And in the end, parts of the expansion did leave me wanting more.

 

Those faults are there, but for me the expansion's strengths left a far bigger impression: I loved the storyline and particularly the core characters, Lana, Theron, Jakarro and C2-D4 (the one-off characters like Kai Zykken and the Rishi civilians, as well as the interaction with characters like Darth Marr and Shae Vizla were great too). I've only played / seen about half of the Class-specific quests, but they struck me as pitch perfect (especially the Inquisitor's). Rishi itself was absolutely gorgeous and, between the pirate theme and the Rishii species, it had a lot of personality to it, on and off the docks.

 

My only complaint about that planet is that the number of Dailies is somewhat mismatched with how spread out they are - if they wanted them over that large an area of the map, then I think they should have had more of them; if they wanted to only have the small number that they went with, then they should have been in a more localized area of the map.

 

I have really enjoyed the new Flashpoints and Operations, even with the difficulty spike on the new Ops, which I PUG. I have not been hit with any 'content vacuum' as a result of the new tier of Ops, the old Ops are all still there - in fact those are the only Ops I run with my Guild and we have them going on several times a week.

 

I think the solo-mode Flashpoints were a fantastic addition for soloers, and the decision to make solo-mode a one-time-per-character option was exactly the right move. So was giving players the option to finish the story either through an Operation or a solo encounter (as opposed to having to complete an Op to finish the Dread War storyline). With this expansion they seem to have found the right way to integrate group content into the core story experience, making the big, epic encounters feel like they are part of that story without leaving solo players feeling locked out.

 

When I look at SoR, I see $20 well-spent. That's the amount I'd end up paying for a single trip to the movies or one round of drinks at a bar. Dollar-for-dollar, this was a much better value.

Edited March 20, 2015 by DarthDymond

[RiVaN_]

Why is that? My ability to enjoy the game isn't impacted by my ability to be honest about it. I LOVE the PACKERS, but I hate that they cut AJ Hawk - 2 years ago when Clay was out, AJ was our entire defense...but I still love the PACKERS.

 

As an Ohio State fan I can't agree with you more AJ Hawk is the man and GB cutting him was a mistake. Thier D hasn't recovered.

 

Just my, Off topic, 2 cents.

 

Lol