The Contraband Slot Machine

[eartharioch]

That's right. The Slot Machine was added but you're never supposed to actually play it, so Bioware was surprised when people used something they put into their game, so they had to change the drop rate levels to compensate for the unexpected use of the item they purposefully put into the game.

 

 

You can't be serious.

 

Try reading the whole sentence/post. I was saying that the slot machine shouldn't be a *source* of income. It should be something on which to *spend* your money. I didn't say people shouldn't expect to play the machine. The problem with the machine is that almost all the prizes have an effective resale value, so either the machine is net profitable for everybody or a net loss for everybody, neither of which are good implementations.

 

In an earlier post I contrasted the current machine with the Kingpin slot machine. Since its prizes were all unique (and BoL), they had no "resale" value, and thus were "worth" however much a player wanted to spend on them. The "expected" costs could be calculated based on token cost and drop rate, but since there were no resalable items, nothing could lower the expected long term cost. Thus, people would only spend money and play if they wanted the items for personal use. Clearly, people liked what they saw.

 

The CSM, OTOH started out with highly negative cost, so it replaced "traditional" ways of making money and gathering mats. That's what I said it *shouldn't* be used for. OFC BW nerfed it into the ground. Unfortunately, once BW made sure nobody could use it to generate income, there wasn't much worth playing the machine for -- rep that quickly caps out, a few mats that no longer justify the cost of playing, and while certs can be collected a bit more cheaply than buying packs, you don't get a chance to get any of the other stuff that comes in packs (regardless of the profitability). So BW added a BoP faction-specific mount (which I believe can't even be vendored) that is, imo, so lame that I haven't been able to come up with an appropriate analogy). I'm currently working with "christmas", a terminally ill child wanting a puppy, and an acorn.

[idnewton]

Try reading the whole sentence/post. I was saying that the slot machine shouldn't be a *source* of income. It should be something on which to *spend* your money. I didn't say people shouldn't expect to play the machine. The problem with the machine is that almost all the prizes have an effective resale value, so either the machine is net profitable for everybody or a net loss for everybody, neither of which are good implementations.

 

In an earlier post I contrasted the current machine with the Kingpin slot machine. Since its prizes were all unique (and BoL), they had no "resale" value, and thus were "worth" however much a player wanted to spend on them. The "expected" costs could be calculated based on token cost and drop rate, but since there were no resalable items, nothing could lower the expected long term cost. Thus, people would only spend money and play if they wanted the items for personal use. Clearly, people liked what they saw.

 

The CSM, OTOH started out with highly negative cost, so it replaced "traditional" ways of making money and gathering mats. That's what I said it *shouldn't* be used for. OFC BW nerfed it into the ground. Unfortunately, once BW made sure nobody could use it to generate income, there wasn't much worth playing the machine for -- rep that quickly caps out, a few mats that no longer justify the cost of playing, and while certs can be collected a bit more cheaply than buying packs, you don't get a chance to get any of the other stuff that comes in packs (regardless of the profitability). So BW added a BoP faction-specific mount (which I believe can't even be vendored) that is, imo, so lame that I haven't been able to come up with an appropriate analogy). I'm currently working with "christmas", a terminally ill child wanting a puppy, and an acorn.

 

If that was your point, then don't make statements like the one you did, because they don't support the point you wanted to make (which isn't a bad point, by the way).

Edited February 1, 2015 by idnewton

[idnewton]

Also, this doesn't really support my point, which is awkward to say after I just said not to make statements which don't support your point, but that drop rate for certificates from the packs takes the price of the packs into account but ignores the rest of the items in the pack. If you sold everything else in the pack, you'd probably end up paying a whole lot less per certificate than from the slot machine.

 

Personally this whole rage-fest is laughable. I wasn't part of the original slot frenzy, in fact, I bought the slot machine after it was nerfed for the purpose of getting rep.

 

So it's pretty funny to watch everyone whine about the nerf.

 

 

PS: Then I bought a hypercrate just to get certificates so I could buy that crown. 4.5m combined excluding all the pack items I sold... yeah, so worth it. (Slot machine was only 650k btw, I would pay that much to get legend in any rep organization).

Edited February 1, 2015 by idnewton

[eartharioch]

If that was your point, then don't make statements like the one you did, because they don't support the point you wanted to make (which isn't a bad point, by the way).

 

Well, the full paragraph, from which you snipped part of a sentence, was:

 

"You're not supposed to take time out of the game to play a slot machine, it's not a job, it's not supposed to be profitable. Yeah, I wish there were more "wins" besides rep (not valuable wins, just wins). But if you play it while waiting for queues, talking with friends/guildies, reading chat, or reading the forums, you can get the odd cert or mat."

 

I think it says pretty much what I just explained (although in less detail), but I can see where it might have a "quit wasting your time on that machine and get back to playing the game" tone. Anyway, glad I was able to get my point across a bit more clearly.

[idnewton]

Anyway, glad I was able to get my point across a bit more clearly.

Same. Clarity is important

[eartharioch]

Also, this doesn't really support my point, which is awkward to say after I just said not to make statements which don't support your point, but that drop rate for certificates from the packs takes the price of the packs into account but ignores the rest of the items in the pack. If you sold everything else in the pack, you'd probably end up paying a whole lot less per certificate than from the slot machine.

 

Personally this whole rage-fest is laughable. I wasn't part of the original slot frenzy, in fact, I bought the slot machine after it was nerfed for the purpose of getting rep.

 

So it's pretty funny to watch everyone whine about the nerf.

 

 

PS: Then I bought a hypercrate just to get certificates so I could buy that crown. 4.5m combined excluding all the pack items I sold... yeah, so worth it. (Slot machine was only 650k btw, I would pay that much to get legend in any rep organization).

 

What makes it really laughable is if you go back to the pre-nerf days and read some of those posts. Khevar, some others, and I were calmly explaining why we thought the machine was broken and I was repeatedly told that, like the dinosaurs, my time to adapt or die off had come. The game was moving a new direction, a LAZLO direction. Some of the people saying things like that are some of the people crying the loudest for developer blood. Adapt or die indeed

 

As far as pricing certs goes, as I partially explained elsewhere (not sure if in this thread), it's more complicated. There is an inexhaustible supply of tokens and they are at a set price, the drop rates are well known, and there are only a few prizes with easily determined resale value (the mats market is a commodity market, so just look at what the most expensive item(s) are and you'll have a good estimate of how somebody considering whether or not to farm the machine is going to calculate things).

 

While the certs probably have a fixed drop rate, I don't know it. Furthermore, the GTN supply is not inexhaustible and its pricing is not constant -- it's set by players on a per-transaction basis, not the devs -- so it's not something that one could easily farm if one wanted. Presumably the CM supply is inexhaustible, and the price is set, but it's in CC, so beyond the scope of this analysis.

 

It's hard to calculate the "expected value" of a pack because there are many different items, I don't know the drop rates, and the pricing is less predictable. Just the boost, gift, and mat won't entire offset the cost of a pack, and there is so much variability in the item value. And, since as I noted, there is a rather limited supply, so even if the expected value could be calculated reliably, you can rely on being able use it, since you likely won't get enough runs to settle into the steady state (compared to running 2000 spins of the machine in 3 hrs).

 

So, I was just comparing the cost to obtain a cert, assuming that was what you wanted. If you only have 550K or so and really want a cert, you probably have a better chance of getting it in 3hrs of the slots than buying three packs. OTOH, I'd rather have three packs and take whatever I get in them then spend 3 hrs on the nerfed machine and get its expected payout. My point wasn't to say that the nerfed slot is a great deal (imo, it isn't), just illustrate the sort of calculations and considerations necessary to evaluate proposed changes.

 

So right now, we're "pretty sure" that the packs are a better deal, but (imo) there isn't enough room between where we are now and being "pretty sure" that the machine is a better deal to make a big enough improvement to the odds to make enough people happy.

 

Anyway, FYI, I bought one machine at 2.5M with the intent of getting up to Legend and at least making my money back, which I did. The [sad/funniest/best] thing is that I will end up making more money off the stacks of midlithe, doonium, adaptive circuitry, and autoimmune regulators I bought at dirt cheap prices while the slots were rolling and everybody was dumping mats as fast as they could [print?] them than I made from the mats I printed.

[idnewton]

GTN supply is not inexhaustible and its pricing is not constant

Yep, true.

 

[GTN prices are] set by players

Also true, so technically, the right answer could (and probably does) depend upon the server you play on.

[LordArtemis]

I agree with eartharioch, the CSM should NOT be a source of income. If it was even similar to a real slot machine it would be a drain on most and a boon for a few lucky players.

 

Now THAT is a sentence you will not see very often. You and I are starting to agree too often eartharioch, it feels wrong somehow...

 

...I feel icky.

Edited February 2, 2015 by LordArtemis

[EnkiduNineEight]

I was posting the same, the morning following the release I was suggesting the slot machines needed a significant rollback as they were just too generous/profitable.

 

I'm glad they were rolled back, just think it went too far and removed the 'fun' element from the machines and turned them basically into quick/easy rep machines.

 

IMO if they wanted they, just sell the rep from the vendors. Buy greens without any rep, buy blues when you get newcomer or what not, then purples at hero and be done with it.

[eartharioch]

I agree with eartharioch, the CSM should NOT be a source of income. If it was even similar to a real slot machine it would be a drain on most and a boon for a few lucky players.

 

Now THAT is a sentence you will not see very often. You and I are starting to agree too often eartharioch, it feels wrong somehow...

 

...I feel icky.

 

Or maybe you had vision in a dream, a fragment of which might go:

 

For GSH did swtor devs

A broken slot-machine release

Where Mats and CM Certs Rep ran

From Tokens vendored not by Man

Into the GTN

...

And all who saw should see them there

And all should cry, Beware! Beware!

Its easy odds must be unfair!

Right-click a mouse upon them thrice,

And with your tokens see them fed

For from them Mat Barrons[sic] hath fled

And led them into nerf-a-dise

[SelinaH]

Uh-oh -- someone's been replacing your stims with laudanum!

[LordArtemis]

Or maybe you had vision in a dream, a fragment of which might go:

 

For GSH did swtor devs

A broken slot-machine release

Where Mats and CM Certs Rep ran

From Tokens vendored not by Man

Into the GTN

...

And all who saw should see them there

And all should cry, Beware! Beware!

Its easy odds must be unfair!

Right-click a mouse upon them thrice,

And with your tokens see them fed

For from them Mat Barrons[sic] hath fled

And led them into nerf-a-dise

 

lol.

 

Now don't start going and being all likeable and sensible eartharioch...I might just lose my mind.

 

HEY! I bet there is one place we could have an argument....I believe that the mats that are on the machine right now need to go...as well as mats in conquests and packs.

 

.....GO! hehe.

Edited February 2, 2015 by LordArtemis

[Jeweledleah]

you know... these conversations are starting to remind me more and more of our super long AC change thread. bioware is certainly staying about as silent on a matter without giving definitive yes or no. really does seem like they are hoping it will blow over. they are right... it will eventually. but at what cost?

[eartharioch]

lol.

 

Now don't start going and being all likeable and sensible eartharioch...I might just lose my mind.

 

HEY! I bet there is one place we could have an argument....I believe that the mats that are on the machine right now need to go...as well as mats in conquests and packs.

 

.....GO! hehe.

 

Don't worry, I'll always trade likability points for sensibility points...and I'll almost always trade either for *style* points. Whether or not I *am* right or wrong, I always try to *do* it right Assuming, of course, that *doing* it right means kickin' wicked rhymes like a fortune teller, and "wicked rhymes" means "pop culture references".

 

Anyway, given my pro-sensibility platform, I'll have to disagree with you wanting to remove all non-crafted mats just as much as I disagreed with you wanting the slot machine to replace crafted ones

 

1) The mats on the machine are already gone. The only reason they have a non-zero drop rate is because "plausible deniability". BW said the machine was Working As Intended, but that rates may be adjusted. Removing the mats entirely would be tantamount to admitting that they had no clue what they were saying when they said "Working As Intended". We know that's the case (well, *I* knew that was the case, and you hoped that I was wrong), and that's why BW will likely never address this issue again, no matter how many people scream.

 

2) Mats in Conquest are fine (as I told Andryah a couple of weeks ago) -- only the top 10 guilds' members get them, and (based on when I was active in Conquest and what I've read almost every week afterwards) winners "spend" (by crafting at a loss) more mats than they earn.

 

3) Mats in packs are fine -- they've been in there for ages, and packs sell for more than the max value of the mats. \

 

The problem with the slot machine was that tokens and spins were unlimited (unlike Conquest and Pack rewards), the effective drop rate was higher than running missions, and the net cost was lower than running missions. None of those things is true about Conquest or Pack mats.

 

Not that I'd care if BW removed those sources, but they just aren't in the same game (much less league) as machine-generated mats.

Edited February 2, 2015 by eartharioch

[idnewton]

you know... these conversations are starting to remind me more and more of our super long AC change thread. bioware is certainly staying about as silent on a matter without giving definitive yes or no. really does seem like they are hoping it will blow over. they are right... it will eventually. but at what cost?

 

It got turned from a get-rich-quick item into a get-rep-quick item. Seems fine to me, as I said before, I bought it after the nerf for that purpose. And no, I won't deny it was a nerf. Of course it was a nerf. But really, it's not "broken" now. Is it optimal for you? No, of course not, but seriously, it's not that big a deal. It's one decoration. It probably already made you rich, so what more do you want?

[Heat-Wave]

I agree with eartharioch, the CSM should NOT be a source of income. If it was even similar to a real slot machine it would be a drain on most and a boon for a few lucky players.

 

Sure, but as it stands now, it should pay out 1,000 JJ or 500 CM certs as a jackpot...

 

If it did, I think more people would toss 50 chips in from time to time...

[Jeweledleah]

It got turned from a get-rich-quick item into a get-rep-quick item. Seems fine to me, as I said before, I bought it after the nerf for that purpose. And no, I won't deny it was a nerf. Of course it was a nerf. But really, it's not "broken" now. Is it optimal for you? No, of course not, but seriously, it's not that big a deal. It's one decoration. It probably already made you rich, so what more do you want?

 

you have GOT to stop assuming things about people.

1. I bought it becasue it finally promise to alleviate my constant shortage of purples when crafting for myself. after seeing what it can do? I actualy for once bought a hypercrate with cartel coins in hopes of getting it. I do NOT usually buy hypercrates. I buy mounts, decoration bundles, and collections unlocks, but becasue of that that machine was originally capable of doing - I did something I don't normally do. bear in mind, my entertainment budget IS limited, so this money that I spent? I won't be able to spend on something else.. like books, or takeout or another videogame (or several).

2. I didn't get rich - I broke just about even, from selling of couple of random drops form the packs that I didn't want for myself. if you don't count real money. if you do? I actualy lost out. over the course of the week, I maybe gambled a total of 2 hours. EVERYTHING that I got from it? I used for myself. I used it to replace blue augments on couple of characters with purples, crafted some purple relics for a few extra alts and one of the new crafted crystals that can be used at level 10. NONE of that stuff was for sale.

3. I had that rep maxed out for a long time now, so rep is 100% useless to me. certificates are still useful, since among other things, they buy decorations. had I KNOWN that this machine would be nerfed to this degree? I wouldn't have spent that money.

 

is the machine broken? yes, honey. yes it is. it was presented as one thing? and then turned into something completely different AFTER people spent money to get it. it was get rep quick even before. but it was rep plus other stuff. now its just rep

 

there is no fun to using it, you know that fun that they said it was for? once you have the rep? its pointless.

 

rare mount from it is not only ridiculously rare, but its also a barely recolor of the mounts you can get on yavin 4 for 100k. certs are almost as just as rare. and unlike casino event - there is no legacy gear or mounts purchasable with tokens won through place as an incentive. there's nothing. its a money sink with NOTHING to show for it

 

/ shrug. they chose to act in this manner towards their customers? I chose not to spend any more money on them.

 

funny part is. I can do so while still playing the game, specifically while continuing to run ops with my guildies. I'm rapidly souring on nearly everything else.

 

would I like it if they review their recent practices (and not just slot machine either). yes. am I actualy hoping they do? nope. and that's a sad thing.

Edited February 2, 2015 by Jeweledleah

[Menolley]

I actually had a respectable run with the slot machine today.

 

Stack 1: Total cash outlay after selling rep items: 25K

GAINED: 1 purple JJ

 

Stack 2: Total cash outlay after selling rep items: 17K

Gained: 1 Certificate

 

Stack 3: Total cash outlay after selling rep items 20K

Gained: ! certificate

 

Applying the cash outlay as cost of the item received I consider that reasonable and it was actually fun.

[idnewton]

you have GOT to stop assuming things about people.

1. I bought it becasue it finally promise to alleviate my constant shortage of purples when crafting for myself. after seeing what it can do? I actualy for once bought a hypercrate with cartel coins in hopes of getting it. I do NOT usually buy hypercrates. I buy mounts, decoration bundles, and collections unlocks, but becasue of that that machine was originally capable of doing - I did something I don't normally do. bear in mind, my entertainment budget IS limited, so this money that I spent? I won't be able to spend on something else.. like books, or takeout or another videogame (or several).

2. I didn't get rich - I broke just about even, from selling of couple of random drops form the packs that I didn't want for myself. if you don't count real money. if you do? I actualy lost out. over the course of the week, I maybe gambled a total of 2 hours. EVERYTHING that I got from it? I used for myself. I used it to replace blue augments on couple of characters with purples, crafted some purple relics for a few extra alts and one of the new crafted crystals that can be used at level 10. NONE of that stuff was for sale.

3. I had that rep maxed out for a long time now, so rep is 100% useless to me. certificates are still useful, since among other things, they buy decorations. had I KNOWN that this machine would be nerfed to this degree? I wouldn't have spent that money.

 

is the machine broken? yes, honey. yes it is. it was presented as one thing? and then turned into something completely different AFTER people spent money to get it. it was get rep quick even before. but it was rep plus other stuff. now its just rep

 

there is no fun to using it, you know that fun that they said it was for? once you have the rep? its pointless.

 

rare mount from it is not only ridiculously rare, but its also a barely recolor of the mounts you can get on yavin 4 for 100k. certs are almost as just as rare. and unlike casino event - there is no legacy gear or mounts purchasable with tokens won through place as an incentive. there's nothing. its a money sink with NOTHING to show for it

 

/ shrug. they chose to act in this manner towards their customers? I chose not to spend any more money on them.

 

funny part is. I can do so while still playing the game, specifically while continuing to run ops with my guildies. I'm rapidly souring on nearly everything else.

 

would I like it if they review their recent practices (and not just slot machine either). yes. am I actualy hoping they do? nope. and that's a sad thing.

 

Um, ok crazy person. You go sit in your crazy corner over there ---->

 

[idnewton]

I actually had a respectable run with the slot machine today.

 

Stack 1: Total cash outlay after selling rep items: 25K

GAINED: 1 purple JJ

 

Stack 2: Total cash outlay after selling rep items: 17K

Gained: 1 Certificate

 

Stack 3: Total cash outlay after selling rep items 20K

Gained: ! certificate

 

Applying the cash outlay as cost of the item received I consider that reasonable and it was actually fun.

 

Wow that is some really good luck I did it about that many times, at least, and never got a cert. Ended up getting the hypercrate to get those. The rep was great though. Got legend and 6 certs, so I'm ready to buy the crown once the costume designer details are revealed. Hey speaking of that, didn't the source from the dulfy post say the devs were going to make a post about it "slated for two weeks" or something like that? That'd be Friday, I think. (2/6) Assuming their schedule hasn't changed.

[Vhaegrant]

They weren't expecting the obessive level of play that some folks went too. As the item at the intial rate's wasnt broken with a few minutes here and there. But the item over a longer period of time was exceedingly destructive to gameplay. Part of the issue is that there wasnt really a way to find this on the PTS per say.

 

They are game developers for an MMO, if they can't foresee 'obsessive' levels of play then maybe they need to go look for another line of work

After a dev comes up with a 'cool' idea the very next thought that needs to go through their mind is, 'How can this be exploited?', and within the constraints of an MMO the most obvious balance point is that of time. It is the reason there are already so many time gated experiences such as dailies, weeklies, OPs lockouts and restrictions on coms earned.

[Vhaegrant]

I actually had a respectable run with the slot machine today.

 

Stack 1: Total cash outlay after selling rep items: 25K

GAINED: 1 purple JJ

 

Stack 2: Total cash outlay after selling rep items: 17K

Gained: 1 Certificate

 

Stack 3: Total cash outlay after selling rep items 20K

Gained: ! certificate

 

Applying the cash outlay as cost of the item received I consider that reasonable and it was actually fun.

 

RNG is RNG.

I fed 500 slot chips into the machine at a cost, after redeeming rep tokens, of 176,000 credits and all I had drop was a single green Jawa token (and that was early on in the first stack of 99, so for over 4 stacks all that dropped was rep tokens).

[Vhaegrant]

It got turned from a get-rich-quick item into a get-rep-quick item. Seems fine to me, as I said before, I bought it after the nerf for that purpose. And no, I won't deny it was a nerf. Of course it was a nerf. But really, it's not "broken" now. Is it optimal for you? No, of course not, but seriously, it's not that big a deal. It's one decoration. It probably already made you rich, so what more do you want?

 

The main issue for many that are still posting on the 'nerf' is that it completely changed the function of the slot machine.

 

If it was just a reputation generating device I would have still purchased one but the amount would have been far lower.

 

Green and Blue Jawa tokens weren't an issue. It was the purple jawa tokens and the fact they had the same drop rate as the greens and blue. This is bad design.

I'd say the certificate drop rate was a touch on the high side as well, but that was mainly a point of abuse because of the easy monetisation from the GTN listable Personnel decorations.

 

I honestly think the ball was dropped in the design process. The item was either handed to an intern for iteration or, and this is my best suggestion, the prototype item with inflated drop rates (to check the code) made it to the live servers.

 

Now, it would be harmful to openly acknowledge that the QA process fumbled the slot machine so badly, so they went ahead and told the community team it was 'working as intended' but would have a balance judged on metrics.

[Citruzz]

Wow, this thread is still around?

[Menolley]

" wow this thread is still around" .. too true. I come because it's fascinating. But reality check wise: I think the terms of service says it all.

 

IMPORTANT: BIOWARE MAY FIND IT NECESSARY TO MAKE CHANGES TO, OR RESET CERTAIN PARAMETERS TO BALANCE GAME PLAY AND USAGE OF TOR SERVICES. THESE CHANGES OR "RESETS" MAY AFFECT CHARACTERS OR GAMES OR GROUPS UNDER YOUR CONTROL AND MAY CAUSE YOU SETBACKS WITHIN THE RELEVANT GAME WORLD. BIOWARE RESERVES THE RIGHT TO MAKE THESE CHANGES AND IS NOT LIABLE TO YOU FOR THESE CHANGES.

 

We all agreed to the TOS to gain access to the game. Virtual contracts are just as binding as the paper version. Always read contracts so there are no surprises. This contract is pretty much standard to all MMOs

 

I am guessing the machines were meant to be quick rep and someone misplaced some decimal points. They have restored it to work as intended. Their right. The game was fun to play before the slot machine and is fun to play now.

 

First rule of gambling is NEVER gamble with coins you cannot afford to spend. If you can afford it, and find it fun trying for that big jackpot .. make sure you keep track of how much you have spent and go for it. I intend to in small increments. If you can't afford it, stay away. If it upsets you, stay away. Go have some fun.

Edited February 2, 2015 by Menolley