The Contraband Slot Machine

[Max_Killjoy]

Doonium is just 8k credits now.

 

Good.

[Andryah]

Swtor's not just hurting the select "Few" but also itself cause I have seen multiple people that spend real $ on packs are now going to stop buying them because the certs & Rep were exclusive to the packs alone for 2 years, and now that trends gone, so are people buying the packs as well.

 

Think about what you just said here.

 

The slot ONLY issues the first wave of Certificates, which are the very oldest, and frankly many people are already maxed Rep.. so they are simply cash trade-ins from these players.

 

The most current packs always have the latest and greatest drops and rep certificates. And most people do not want to wait over a year for a slot machine version.

 

Pack sales will be fine... and frankly will flood the market with Jawa junk a lot more then players huddled in their strongholds playing slot machines. Why? Instant gratification.. which many players are addicted to.

[Andryah]

Thanks BioWare, you've ruined the economy. Doonium is just 8k credits now. You made it only cost 1 jawa Junk?! It went for over 30k each just a week ago. It is not worth sending my companion on an Underworld trading mission. It has never been worth sending a companion after Luxury Fabrics, ever. It was already a disgrace that you never once addressed how worthless Luxury fabrics are.

 

The fact is, you NEVER put any thought into the number of anything. Blue crafting materials are and have always been so over abundant that we just sell stacks to a vendor. Why? because you put no thought into what the demand will be and how much you should supply, EVER!

 

Autoimmune Regulators seem to be tougher to get than any other material. I say this because I have a bunch of character with Diplomacy and max affection companions and I vendor stack after stack of Hemostatic Gel with relatively few Autoimmune Regulators to show for it. You made those cost 2 Jawa Junk?! Currently there's a stack of 50 of them for 12.55k per unit or a stack of 2 for 35k, and of course the single one for a billion credits.

 

You don't test anything properly, and you release everything full of bugs and with tons of complaints from your beta testers, which you ignore. Whoever is managing this show need to be replaced ASAP.

 

You probably should pause and take time to clean your monitor screen now.

 

Tell you what...... rather then freaking out and foaming all over the place... maybe wait a few weeks and see where the L11 materials segment of the economy settles in. Why? Because there are multiple sources of junk flooding the markets right now... and people hoarded for many weeks waiting for 3.0 to drop so they could scoop up the newest level mats. Thing is.. the demand was additionally pent up by a delay in putting L11 mats on the Jawa vendors.... so that created an even bigger dumping spike.

 

TL;DR you have to acknowledge that slots is not the only source of junk, not even close, it's just the most talked about at the moment. Further.. you cannot declare an economy ruined over a temporary spike in commodities dumping by players.

 

Players cannot sustain this... and won't. However, the predatory entry pricing of materials and the corresponding price pressures on crafted items... will not return to predatory levels.. which is what you are really upset about I suspect.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Andryah

[Max_Killjoy]

You probably should pause and take time to clean your monitor screen now.

 

Tell you what...... rather then freaking out and foaming all over the place... maybe wait a few weeks and see where the L11 materials segment of the economy settles in. Why? Because there are multiple sources of junk flooding the markets right now... and people hoarded for many weeks waiting for 3.0 to drop so they could scoop up the newest level mats. Thing is.. the demand was additionally pent up by a delay in putting L11 mats on the Jawa vendors.... so that created an even bigger dumping spike.

 

TL;DR you have to acknowledge that slots is not the only source of junk, not even close, it's just the most talked about at the moment. Further.. you cannot declare an economy ruined over a temporary spike in commodities dumping by players.

 

Players cannot sustain this... and won't. However, the predatory entry pricing of materials and the corresponding price pressures on crafted items... will not return to predatory levels.. which is what you are really upset about I suspect.

 

You know, a lot of the outraged reaction reminds me of the way that certain businesses like to use the courts to suppress and impede any new development that would reduce the profitability of their standing business model. See, the recording companies and every effort they've made since the days of cassette tapes to suppress any technology that would harm their then-monopoly on publishing music.

 

Note to everyone -- your business model is not sacred, and no effort should be expended by anyone else to defend or maintain it.

[LordArtemis]

I have spent about 400k so far on the coins, have one and a half stacks of each jawa junk, hero for the cartel rep (hit the cap) and I have a speeder I have been wanting for a long time on all my toons which cost me 1.2m and 48 certs.

 

So, so far I have spent 1.6 million that is now gone from the economy, and will likely spend 3 million more at least.

 

This is money that also caused me not to have to generate extra coin to buy the speeders from the GTN. So I avoided creating 24 million to purchase the speeders, 700k for the blues and 7m for the purples. So total of 31.7 million that I would have had to generate and add to the economy to play another player. All approx of course looking at the cost of current blues and purples that have only dropped 20 to 30 percent at this point.

 

I continued to run crafting supply missions as I always do....as running the missions is cheaper than purchasing the mats from the vendor. When I log out I run an entire set of high level mat missions on all my toons as it is the only way to generate the mats while logged out.

 

Seems to be a reasonable trade off. The only ones hurt by this, as far as I can see, are the high level material sellers...they can no longer charge the kind of outrageous prices they were charging for mats. And you were going to get hit anyway by those that hoarded the mats from packs and conquest.

 

A few of the folks in here complaining about the machine are the same folks that were complaining about the respawn rates being too high on Rishi and Yavin, claiming they had killed the game economy.

 

It looks to me like at least some of those exaggerated claims are self serving at best. And that is shameful.

 

Also, more than one person made claims that prices had dropped dramatically on their server, yet folks proved otherwise. Again, self serving deceit.

 

Some folks seem to want to protect their income streams....some of the same folks that resisted unified comms, CM crystals, CM speeders, CM armor for the same reasons.

 

It is interesting to me how the same claims of economic disaster were made back then as well, and the disaster never happened.

 

I'm not buying it this time either. I will continue to craft, continue to use this machine to get the items I want from the contraband vendors and continue to play that game, and you guys are welcome to continue to expend effort in an attempt to protect your income streams.

 

I will state it again.....

 

 

This is what I think should happen.

 

1) Price for coins raised to 2000 credits per coin.

2) Total material return from crew missions increased by 50 percent across the board.

3) 10 percent increase in crit chance on missions across the board.

4) Reshuffle button for mission display.

Edited January 17, 2015 by LordArtemis

[OddballEasyEight]

Swtor's not just hurting the select "Few" but also itself cause I have seen multiple people that spend real $ on packs are now going to stop buying them because the certs & Rep were exclusive to the packs alone for 2 years, and now that trends gone, so are people buying the packs as well.

 

Well that's fine.

 

Becuase the people who buy packs ONLY because of certs & rep are a dwindling few.

The vast majority buy the packs to get to the new outfits, weapons, colour crystals. pets, mounts, dyes, emotes, regen and toys.

NOT the certs and rep.

Sure, there are some with OCD who feel that they need to have maxed out reps in all the groups, but those are pretty few.

And they won't stop buying the packs anyway since this machine only gives rep to the first wave of packs (and anyone with that kind of OCD will have already maxed out that rep long ago).

 

So no, people won't stop buying the packs.

Now stop grasping for straws.

[Kourage]

Good.

 

No, it's not good. That's not enough to bother with sending companions after. It costs almost 4k credits to send a companion on a Rich yield Underworld Trading mission. Rich yield isn't always an option, Bountiful costs 3755 credits. Max affection and +5 at best is a 25% chance to crit? Most companions will be just 20%. I used to send as many companions as i could after UW Metals. Now, I wouldn't bother unless it was my max affection ship droid with the +5 UW Trading part. The missions normal reward of Trimantium is all but worthless. 99 of them vendors for 24k credits and people sell stacks for almost the same amount. I would log into several characters just to send companions on missions, but it's not worth it anymore. It's not worth stopping what I'm doing and logging in and out to start missions and collect materials. The price is far too low. Your sole source of Doonium is about to come from Slot Machines and Jawa dealers.

 

Those +5 UW parts cost credits. Maxing affection costs credits and takes time. Logging in a character you're not playing to send out a companion takes time. Time is money. Time you could be doing something else, like a daily or whatever. Time I won't bother with when it's only worth 8k credits. Underworld Trading is a crew skill I chose. I get 3 total. I'm being undermined by people who just use a slot machine and trade for the same material. There's no reason to take UW trading as using a slot machine for mats is easier and you can choose whichever material you need or has the highest value.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Kourage

[wolfyde]

You know, a lot of the outraged reaction reminds me of the way that certain businesses like to use the courts to suppress and impede any new development that would reduce the profitability of their standing business model. See, the recording companies and every effort they've made since the days of cassette tapes to suppress any technology that would harm their then-monopoly on publishing music.

 

Note to everyone -- your business model is not sacred, and no effort should be expended by anyone else to defend or maintain it.

 

QFT! +5 Vorpal Harpoon of Whaleslaying for you.

[Calar]

No, it's not good. That's not enough to bother with sending companions after. It costs almost 4k credits to send a companion on a Rich yield Underworld Trading mission. Rich yield isn't always an option, Bountiful costs 3755 credits. Max affection and +5 at best is a 25% chance to crit? Most companions will be just 20%. I used to send as many companions as i could after UW Metals. Now, I wouldn't bother unless it was my max affection ship droid with the +5 UW Trading part. The missions normal reward of Trimantium is all but worthless. 99 of them vendors for 24k credits and people sell stacks for almost the same amount. I would log into several characters just to send companions on missions, but it's not worth it anymore. It's not worth stopping what I'm doing and logging in and out to start missions and collect materials. The price is far too low. Your sole source of Doonium is about to come from Slot Machines and Jawa dealers.

 

Those +5 UW parts cost credits. Maxing affection costs credits and takes time. Logging in a character you're not playing to send out a companion takes time. Time is money. Time you could be doing something else, like a daily or whatever. Time I won't bother with when it's only worth 8k credits. Underworld Trading is a crew skill I chose. I get 3 total. I'm being undermined by people who just use a slot machine and trade for the same material. There's no reason to take UW trading as using a slot machine for mats is easier and you can choose whichever material you need or has the highest value.

 

100 % signed

[Jeweledleah]

No, it's not good. That's not enough to bother with sending companions after. It costs almost 4k credits to send a companion on a Rich yield Underworld Trading mission. Rich yield isn't always an option, Bountiful costs 3755 credits. Max affection and +5 at best is a 25% chance to crit? Most companions will be just 20%. I used to send as many companions as i could after UW Metals. Now, I wouldn't bother unless it was my max affection ship droid with the +5 UW Trading part. The missions normal reward of Trimantium is all but worthless. 99 of them vendors for 24k credits and people sell stacks for almost the same amount. I would log into several characters just to send companions on missions, but it's not worth it anymore. It's not worth stopping what I'm doing and logging in and out to start missions and collect materials. The price is far too low. Your sole source of Doonium is about to come from Slot Machines and Jawa dealers.

 

Those +5 UW parts cost credits. Maxing affection costs credits and takes time. Logging in a character you're not playing to send out a companion takes time. Time is money. Time you could be doing something else, like a daily or whatever. Time I won't bother with when it's only worth 8k credits. Underworld Trading is a crew skill I chose. I get 3 total. I'm being undermined by people who just use a slot machine and trade for the same material. There's no reason to take UW trading as using a slot machine for mats is easier and you can choose whichever material you need or has the highest value.

 

and that is a problem with mission skills that needs to be fixed. people even offered suggestions where on regular returns you get 1 purple material guaranteed, and on crits you get more

 

you are also forgeting that jawa junk doesn't just come from slot machines. it comes from opening packs and competing in conquests. and guess what? its been doing that for MONTHS upon MONTHS. I rarely open more than an hypercrate and a few extras per pack (so about 4 hypercrates, give or take, per reputation path) and I stopped participating in conquests about a month ago and i STILL had 6 stacks of jawa junk alone sitting in my cargohold. how much more do you think more active people had stocked up?

 

machine is faster then missions and THAT is a problem with missions. that really needs to be fixed. but this current flood of materials? trust me, machine is a minor percentage of that.

[Kourage]

TLDR version of previous statements from myself;

 

Why bother selecting Underworld Trading, Diplomacy, or whatever when you can get the same materials cheaper and easier from playing slot machines and trading with the Jawa Dealers, or just buying them off the GTN from others incredibly cheap? I'm still trying to get Treasure Hunting up on a 55 Jedi i dropped Bio from. It's a slow process of logging in and waiting, only raising it 5 points at a time. Slot machines & jawa dealers bypass all of that.

[Djiini]

TLDR version of previous statements from myself;

 

Why bother selecting Underworld Trading, Diplomacy, or whatever when you can get the same materials cheaper and easier from playing slot machines and trading with the Jawa Dealers, or just buying them off the GTN from others incredibly cheap? I'm still trying to get Treasure Hunting up on a 55 Jedi i dropped Bio from. It's a slow process of logging in and waiting, only raising it 5 points at a time. Slot machines & jawa dealers bypass all of that.

 

> implying MMOs are based around crafting

Wait, sorry.

> implying GOOD MMOs are based around crafting

isn't that right archeage.

 

LEARN TO ADAPT.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Djiini

[Jeweledleah]

Well that's fine.

 

Becuase the people who buy packs ONLY because of certs & rep are a dwindling few.

The vast majority buy the packs to get to the new outfits, weapons, colour crystals. pets, mounts, dyes, emotes, regen and toys.

NOT the certs and rep.

Sure, there are some with OCD who feel that they need to have maxed out reps in all the groups, but those are pretty few.

And they won't stop buying the packs anyway since this machine only gives rep to the first wave of packs (and anyone with that kind of OCD will have already maxed out that rep long ago).

 

So no, people won't stop buying the packs.

Now stop grasping for straws.

 

well... I did buy packs mainly for certs and rep, becasue it were the only guaranteed things out of them, BUT. I do very much collect crystals and outfits and mounts and pets, and while I wasn't getting my hopes up too much with packs, understanding that I will most likely need to trade for what I really wanted - reputation VENDORS also have stuff I'd like to have, and that stuff is

 

1. guaranteed

2. requires certificates

3. requires reputation with that pack

 

so. in my case, at least, I would still be doing it my normal way, getting new packs as they come out - from people who list them on GTN. just as I did before. the one thing that changed is just how often I'll be patronizing cartel pack vendors. thanks to machine? a LOT more often.

[dscount]

Players cannot sustain this... and won't. However, the predatory entry pricing of materials and the corresponding price pressures on crafted items... will not return to predatory levels.. which is what you are really upset about I suspect.

While I typically don't agree with Andryah on most of his/her faniboy posts... this topic.. 100% agree.

 

Is the market being flooded? Yes.. Was it needed? Yes... will the economy be ruined.. NO.. Market prices will balance out and as people get the items they want the demand will slow down.

 

I did my own 1000 chip sample and for the initial few days some good money can be had. Now.. not so much, but I can at least GET more Jawa Junk that was only avaliable via Packs and Conquesting now for my crafting.

 

LOL - Some guy is posting in general chat "36 Certs in 2 stacks".. I'm sorry, but that's not really possible based on a majority of the math provided to date. Maybe 3-6 certs, but no way you got 18% ROI. Back to predatory prices as said guy most likely has a ton of packs for sale on GTN or slot machines for stupid prices.

[Citruzz]

Hard to say that "it will have a massive impact on the economy" without talking about money.

 

i didn't say something about money generation through slot machines. what i mean was, that the cash flow got interrupted and the equilibrium of supply and demand is in imbalance. Through the easy access to the slot machines, the market for materials (except greens) is unnecessary now.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Citruzz

[Taw_Kobalt]

I hope you change nothing about this item.

 

If you lower the drop rate on the jawa junk, its not going to affect the profit at all, it will just drive up mat prices on the GTN which hurts crafting and casual players.

 

Please leave as it is

[wolfyde]

With that being said, we do hear the concern from many of you around the effects of the Jawa Junk’s drop rate on the economy.

-eric

 

Eric, I do sincerely hope you are equally reading, and paying much closer attention to, the intelligent posts made by the people who actually understand how an MMO economy works.

The people creating hyperbole and drama over this fictional negative impact on the economy are doing so out of either ignorance and incomprehension of the mechanics at work, or, the worst bunch, the GTN Whales whose game experience consists of hunting undemocratic profit margins and who are lashing out against the threat to their greed.

Edited January 20, 2015 by wolfyde

[Djiini]

LOL - Some guy is posting in general chat "36 Certs in 2 stacks".. I'm sorry, but that's not really possible based on a majority of the math provided to date. Maybe 3-6 certs, but no way you got 18% ROI. Back to predatory prices as said guy most likely has a ton of packs for sale on GTN or slot machines for stupid prices.

 

Do you know how odds work?

 

It took me ~300 or 400 tokens to get 13 Certs, but I have a friend who got 20 in 200 and I was there /watching/ it. Luck is LUCK. It's possible to get 100 Certs in 100 tokens. Not likely by any means, but it is 'POSSIBLE'.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Djiini

[Kourage]

and that is a problem with mission skills that needs to be fixed. people even offered suggestions where on regular returns you get 1 purple material guaranteed, and on crits you get more

 

you are also forgeting that jawa junk doesn't just come from slot machines. it comes from opening packs and competing in conquests. and guess what? its been doing that for MONTHS upon MONTHS. I rarely open more than an hypercrate and a few extras per pack (so about 4 hypercrates, give or take, per reputation path) and I stopped participating in conquests about a month ago and i STILL had 6 stacks of jawa junk alone sitting in my cargohold. how much more do you think more active people had stocked up?

 

machine is faster then missions and THAT is a problem with missions. that really needs to be fixed. but this current flood of materials? trust me, machine is a minor percentage of that.

 

No, it's not minor. The slot machine and Jaw Vendors level 11 materials combination has pretty much made the crew skills for gathering them worthless. There is absolutely no reason to level any Mission Skill anymore.

[Jeweledleah]

No, it's not minor. The slot machine and Jaw Vendors level 11 materials combination has pretty much made the crew skills for gathering them worthless. There is absolutely no reason to level any Mission Skill anymore.

 

they wouldn't be worthless if they didn't suck so much. instead of taking away options, maybe just MAYBE. they should consider making missions skills suck less?

 

when when I said minor part? I was talking about current material flood on the market. MOST of that is coming from already existing stockpiles of jawajunk

[Kourage]

they wouldn't be worthless if they didn't suck so much. instead of taking away options, maybe just MAYBE. they should consider making missions skills suck less?

 

when when I said minor part? I was talking about current material flood on the market. MOST of that is coming from already existing stockpiles of jawajunk

 

 

Missions skills should perhaps cost half as much or return twice as many purple materials.

BioWare had the problem of not enough supply of Midlithe Crystals because Treasure Hunting was garbage and few took it. Rather than increase the return, they want to make it easier and cheaper to get them from someone who theoretically could have zero crew skills trained or leveled.

[Jeweledleah]

Missions skills should perhaps cost half as much or return twice as many purple materials.

BioWare had the problem of not enough supply of Midlithe Crystals because Treasure Hunting was garbage and few took it. Rather than increase the return, they want to make it easier and cheaper to get them from someone who theoretically could have zero crew skills trained or leveled.

 

so adapt! for cripes sakes, think about it, before you had to have a slot taken up by treasure hunting, but now you , if you want can have it open for something else! or keep it because, why not.

 

but that said, yes, mission skills should be fixed. not the machine- MISSIONS skills. and personally? I don't care whether my purples come from a crew skill or a slot machine, or conquest reward. makes no difference to me, AS LONG AS I GET TO CRAFT THE STUFF I WANT TO BE CRAFTING for once.

[DarthDymond]

If it looks like we're going to settle into an equilibrium where the Jawa Junk is going to meet demand on a server for crafting mats, then they do need to make sure that the Slot Machine is not (on net) more cost-effective than the Crew Skills at producing those mats (either by lowering the reward rates on the slots, or raising it on the missions, or adjusting the costs associated with either/both) - otherwise, as has been said, the Crew Skills will simply be irrational to use.

 

To use really simplified numbers:

• If each Crew Skill mission costs 100 credits to run and gives a 4% chance to return a purple mat, then you can rationally price each of those mats at 2,500 credits.
  
• If each slot machine token costs (net) 100 credits and gives a 5% chance to return a purple mat, then you can rationally price each of those mats at 2,000 credits.
  

 

If that happens, then the slot machine users can price their mats all the way down to 2,001 credits and still make a profit, while the Crew Skill users would be taking a loss at any prices 2,499 and below.

 

It would not only be irrational to use the Crew Skill to get mats to sell (since they're be operating at a loss) but also irrational for anyone to use Crew Skills to try to get mats for their own personal use, since buying from the slot machine users is the more cost-effective way to get them.

 

That is the only situation BW needs to avoid to leave Crew Skills viable. A glut of new mats on the market is not a problem, it will drive prices down, but rationally they won't go to a (sustained) level below the cost-per-mat of acquiring them. The only way it becomes a problem is if things are set up where we might have sustained market prices below the average cost-per-mat of using Crew Skills (which will only happen if the net average cost-per-mat on the slots is lower).

Edited January 17, 2015 by DarthDymond

[dscount]

Do you know how odds work?

 

It took me ~300 or 400 tokens to get 13 Certs, but I have a friend who got 20 in 200 and I was there /watching/ it. Luck is LUCK. It's possible to get 100 Certs in 100 tokens. Not likely by any means, but it is 'POSSIBLE'.

 

I'm well aware of RNG factors, but 36 certs in TWO stacks of chips is just pure hyperbole for the sake of jacking up market price of packs and slot machines on GTN. Those certs drop in competition with the 3 REP items and highly unlikely that said person got 18 from 99 chips. Math just doesn't add up and it would basically mean they got the jackpot on roughly 90%+ of the time in order to achieve those numbers. (REP Taking up most of those jackpots)

 

20 in 200 is more or less 10% (More probable and some great RNG, but not typical ROI). My 1000 chip SAMPLE gave me 26 Certs (Yes.. 26 on 1000 chips.. so my RNG was pretty bad with 2-3 Certs PER stack). To have someone post they got 36 in two stacks is like I said.. Hyperbole - much like most this thread about economic crash.

[Andryah]

I'm well aware of RNG factors, but 36 certs in TWO stacks of chips is just pure hyperbole for the sake of jacking up market price of packs and slot machines on GTN. Those certs drop in competition with the 3 REP items and highly unlikely that said person got 18 from 99 chips. Math just doesn't add up and it would basically mean they got the jackpot on roughly 90%+ of the time in order to achieve those numbers. (REP Taking up most of those jackpots)

 

20 in 200 is more or less 10% (More probable and some great RNG, but not typical ROI). My 1000 chip SAMPLE gave me 26 Certs (Yes.. 26 on 1000 chips.. so my RNG was pretty bad with 2-3 Certs PER stack). To have someone post they got 36 in two stacks is like I said.. Hyperbole - much like most this thread about economic crash.

 

Yeah. It's pretty clear that the average drop rate on Certs is between 2.5 and 3%.

 

I once got 3 of them in a span of 10 coins... but at the end of one hundred coins... I still had only 3 of them. so /rng evened out right there.

 

Of course... if I was not neutral about slots.. but rather severely against them.. I would have rushed to the forum after those 10 coins returning 3 Certs and proceed to declare the drop rate of Certs to be 30%. :p:p:p:p Human beings will always find ways to be amusing.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Andryah