Ravagers Exploit Action Update

[deezOneTenTen]

Umm this is a game, if you were the producer of this game, EA would fire you. This is not real life, no one was hurt, no one died. No stores were looted and burned. Really.

 

OK so lets role play.

Mr Producer DeezOneTenTen you come before the share holders of EA and Bioware today and let us know you banned a great many subscribers from your game and drastically lowered the revenue this game produces because a poorly developed update to the game had an exploit you knew about for more than 4 weeks was not fixed. Please polish your resume because your fired.

 

Seriously, I don't like exploits and even more I despise cheats, they are stupid. But lets face the facts, who was really hurt here. NO ONE.

Zero is the number of people that gain an unfair advantage over anyone in PVE as you are playing Vs the Environment.

 

What you propose would kill the game, seriously. Think about it. I do not want this game damaged. If someone is full of 198's in an OP already. I really could care less because they are helping me clear this OP or HM FP.

Under geared members of an OP will do just the opposite for me. I like this game and want it to thrive, not die over some idealism in this virtual environment.

 

I dont check this everyday so sorry for the 30+ page late response. What you said there is completely false in every way. I have seen MANY MMOs ban thousands upon thousands of accounts in one big swing and those games lasted almost 20 years. One in memory specifically is Dark Age of Camelot. There was a program people were using in the PvP area to see where everybody else in the zone was. I believe it was called radar. It ran rampant. People thought that since it was so wide spread that that Mythic might as well just adapt it and put it into the game. Instead they swung their ban hammer over the course of 3 weeks and 10s of thousands of accounts got banned. That was in 2002 or 2003, the game just finally closed down its servers in 2013. They lasted another 10 years after banning almost half their subscriber base. So this entire so many did it so the game will **** down if we punish them debate completely false and has been proven to the contrary.

 

They stuck with their integrity and said they didnt want their game to be controlled by the exploiters and cheaters. That they would control their game (they sold to EA and EA ruined the game by catering to the whiners and cheaters many years later). They did it and it worked. WoW also went through a massive banning period. I do not recall why, but I remember a big to do about a lot of bans being handed out at once. I believe Aion did also.

 

Banning the cheaters will only help improve the game, not hurt it. They make their statement to those of us with integrity that they will continue to put their best effort in providing a service to us that will not be compromised nor controlled by people who abuse and cheat the system. I'm fairly certain with as many instances as I see on some planets that they have more than enough of a player base that they too can ban a huge number of people and barely even notice it on their bottom line. Most of their money is made from Cartel Coins anyway and I would wager that the people who exploit, are probably not the ones that spend as much money in the cartel market as the people who do not exploit. Because if they could just exploit to get what they wanted, they wouldnt pay money for it.

 

As for your argument that it effects no one. How can you be so completely naive? It didnt effect the crafters who didnt use the exploit and didnt have to raid all the time to get the tokens to turn in to get the gear to reverse engineer to learn the schematics? I bet there are A TON of crafters whos economy was crushed by exploiters getting all the free gear they want to learn the schematic. How about those people who PUG that now cant get into Ops because the exploiters who are now fully geared get in ahead of them because of the gearing alone? They arent effected? You're "NO ONE" has just turned into 10s of thousands of players.

 

So I guarantee you that not only do I keep my job, but I also get a kudos for making the company look better. You may call it idealism, but I call it integrity and reality. The reality of it is those people accepted an agreement and signed their name to follow the rules of that agreement. They broke the rules so the agreement is null and void and they should no longer get the privilege of using this service. Every compnay has the right to refuse service, specially when people violate their terms. Go to a restraunt and start bench pressing the tables and chairs. See if they decide to change it up so that thats what they do. Or do you think you'd get kicked out? Integrity is not only about following the rules, specially the rules that you agreed to follow, but also about making decisions that dont effect others negatively.. And yes, see my points above as to how this effected many people. I see it on fleet every day people spamming LFM for "X" ops here, best geared responder gets spot. Now the people that didnt exploit lose a chance to run because somebody has no integrity and didnt care how it effected others.

 

You may not think your speeding or passing multiple cars in a single lane road will effect anybody else, until you cause an accident. People never think their actions effect anybody else because all they care about is what they get out of what their actions are. Theres a lot more people to have been negatively effected by this exploit than most know.

[emeraldon]

In my opinion players who exploited this once or twice should only receive a warning and an infraction that counts towards their potential next breach of the ToS which would then result in a temp ban according to severity.

Players who did this more often or even excessively should be temp banned accordingly. Maybe up to 6 months for the very worst of offenders who also helped spreading the exploit around.

 

IMO instant perma bans should be reserved for things that impact the enjoyment of other players, like the guys continuously ruining ranked PvP for everyone else or racial slur, other kinds of bigotry and real life threats, with maybe one warning/temp ban issued if the case wasn't that severe. We really don't need those people in our community.

 

It really is a shame that BW doesn't crack down harder on the things that at least I consider to be far worse offenses.

 

They won't permaban people. If they do, it would be only the very worst offenders who spread it wildly and / or sold lockouts. Everyone else would, if anything, just get a few days at max.

[deezOneTenTen]

They won't permaban people. If they do, it would be only the very worst offenders who spread it wildly and / or sold lockouts. Everyone else would, if anything, just get a few days at max.

 

Thats kinda my problem tho. A few days max. Which means most people wont even know they are banned at all. They'll probably just find out one day reading their email that at some point they were banned while they were at work. pfft. so what. Thats not even a slap on the wrist. If I could rob a bank and then find out later in an email that I served a suspended jail time while I was on vacation using up all that stolen money, I'd probably do it in a hearty beat (ok no I wouldnt, but the point is there).

 

I think the punishments should be something like those that used it twice get a warning. There should be a 2 week minimum suspension for those that used the exploit 3 times. 4 times then a 4 week suspension. 5 times then a 8 week suspension. 6 times or more banned. The entire point of a suspension or ban is as a punishment. And of course a punishment is something to teach a lesson and to deter that action from being taken again. What good is a punishment if its so short or mild you dont even know you received it?

Edited January 15, 2015 by deezOneTenTen

[ROGERMNF]

Thats kinda my problem tho. A few days max. Which means most people wont even know they are banned at all. They'll probably just find out one day reading their email that at some point they were banned while they were at work. pfft. so what. Thats not even a slap on the wrist. If I could rob a bank and then find out later in an email that I served a suspended jail time while I was on vacation using up all that stolen money, I'd probably do it in a hearty beat (ok no I wouldnt, but the point is there).

 

I think the punishments should be something like those that used it twice get a warning. There should be a 2 week minimum suspension for those that used the exploit 3 times. 4 times then a 4 week suspension. 5 times then a 8 week suspension. 6 times or more banned. The entire point of a suspension or ban is as a punishment. And of course a punishment is something to teach a lesson and to deter that action from being taken again. What good is a punishment if its so short or mild you dont even know you received it?

 

I feel happy to see the discussion is now in the right way (in my opinion). We can agree or not in how many days/weeks/months, what to do with RE, gear, credits or others. The point is why BW punish players who used the exploit: future prevention or some kind of biblical punishment? Think first is actually the good way, and the second is only a cosmetic treatment for the real issue. More bugs will be in the future, and more exploits to come, so, how to make a punishment system that prevent it. The hard punishment is not necessary the better. For example: if you know that do an offense (a driving offense for example) has a chance of 0,01% to be detected and hi sanction is 1000€/$ a lot of ppl simply don't care to act against the rule. By the other side, if the sanction is only 50$/€ but you have a chance of 75% to be detected, a really little number of ppl will do. This is not about theory, it's about human behavior (debate about severity of measures (Beccaria, 1764) <~ yes, a really old discussion.

I think the history with exploits in SWTOR is more near from case 1 than 2 (I'm not blaming BW). According to the therms can be a big punishment, but it's never applied. This must change, of course. But beeing so drastic now can be perceived as arbitrary measure taked to complain those who claim for permabans.

Give ppl a chance to do it right. (And yes... Give ME a chance to do it right)

[HansAPilss]

Hey Eric,

could you please tranlate it and post it in the german forum?

 

Thank you

 

hey Eric,

 

Thank you for not translating it. so we Germans are totally uninteressting for you -.- oh wait my Money is good enough -.-

[mad_freeman]

hey Eric,

 

Thank you for not translating it. so we Germans are totally uninteressting for you -.- oh wait my Money is good enough -.-

 

hugs:)

[Genghistwelve]

I feel happy to see the discussion is now in the right way (in my opinion)...

 

Talking only the HM version, one can quickly identify a number of possible experiences that might be an issue.

 

GENERAL EXPERIENCE - ACHIEVEMENTS:

 

You have only the Coratanni HM achievement. Probably in a bad spot _right now_. Further review can quickly confirm or deny there's actually a problem.

 

You have only the Coratanni HM achievement legitimately-earned: nothing to worry about per se, unless also exploited.

 

SIMPLE EXPLOIT:

 

1-Time Offender: You will get off scott-free; you will keep your loot. There will be minimal whining on the forums, and more than one fail troll post about how BW doesn't take exploits seriously or some other nonsense.

 

Multiple-time Offender: You are probably in a worse spot directly related to the number of times a simple exploit was executed. 2 times different from one? Perhaps. Five straight weeks across 16 alts different from one? The Magic 8-Ball says: "Rightfully so."

 

AGGRAVATED EXPLOIT:

 

Solicitation:

 

You bought the exploit. Probably in a bad spot.

 

You were name-checked via /report for soliciting over genchat seeking a lockout provider for cash or trade. Probably in a worse spot.

 

You sold the exploit. Probably in an even worse spot.

 

You were name-checked via /report for soliciting over genchat providing a lockout for cash or trade. Probably in the worst spot.

 

Origination:

 

You provided the lockout to be exploited. Probably in a bad spot.

 

You were the first on your server to provide the lockout to be exploited. Probably in a worse spot.

 

You transferred the lockout from one server to another to be exploited, actually creating the means to exploit on the new server. Probably in still a worse spot.

 

You were name-checked via direct communication by the only legitimately-cleared lockout clearers in the game at the start of exploitation -- arguably the best skilled raiders in the game at this time -- that their lockout was unwittingly "stolen" or obtained under false pretenses. You are probably in a really bad spot, simply under the universal law that a good bus-throwing-under should not be passed up.

 

Reverse Engineering:

 

You obtained schematics from RE'ing ill-gotten gains. Probably in a bad spot.

 

You obtained schematics from RE'ing ill-gotten gains and your crafted items never left your account inventory. Probably in a worse spot.

 

You obtained schematics from RE'ing ill-gotten gains and you crafted items for sale or trade. Probably in the worst spot.

 

Mat/Market Manipulation:

 

You crafted using ill-gotten mats to produce more gear than intended: Probably in a bad spot.

 

You crafted using ill-gotten mats to produce more gear than intended and sold it: Probably in a worse spot.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Genghistwelve
To improve post quality

[Snean]

3.0 update - (N)ew (G)ame (E)xperience for swtor?

[fire-breath]

Not quite. The word here that bothers me is "tampering".

No one tampered with any part of the game.

You needed to use a quite specific way to use this exploit. Without explaining to much how it was done I can tell you that it was tampering. The chances to 'find out' this bug by accident is very very low although still possible.

 

Or see it like this. I give you the keys to my house and the code for my vault. I tell you how you can open it.

You do so, I go call the cops and have you punished for burglary. I called the cops after I locked the room and reprogrammed my safe codes of course.

Bioware didn't give you the keys of their house nor did they gave any vault code and ways to access it. Any information about the exploit was removed from various websites.

If you want to use this analogy than it would be that bioware went on holiday and placed the key of the door under the potted plant. Might not be a smart hiding place and in this case bioware was a little silly for not fixing it earlier. But just like that you may not use the key under the potted plant to enter the house you may not use obvious bugs.

 

BioWare published that there was an exploit on Ravagers last boss, but fixed it only a week later. All while announcing people that used it would get punished.

Unfair in a way ....

 

Given it is an error of design, and THEY HAD KNOWLEDGE about it (if not since the beta, it was reported by several people before Christmas and ignored), you would be entitled to a refund.

 

On top, if they have the data about who did what and gained this and that, they should have acted before.

Donkey balls. Doesnt matter. People were being very naughty and they knew it. Nothing that bioware has done wrong makes exploiting good.

In a sense you are saying look mummy I got a 4 out of 10 on my test. Its a very good grade because everybody else got a 2/10. You still flunked

Or driving through a red light because there is no other person closeby and you know there is no police closeby. Wrong = wrong and everybody should have know so.

 

Hence consumer law and consumer protection will come into play (at least in EU / UK).

Have we really sunk that low to take action in such a way? What happend with taking responsability for your own actions regardless if others are?

What are we? Little kids who are trying to weasle out while cought with our hands in the unsealed cookiejar?

 

Pathetic!

[CommanderKeeva]

hey Eric,

 

Thank you for not translating it. so we Germans are totally uninteressting for you -.- oh wait my Money is good enough -.-

 

I think bans transcend language barriers...

[Max_Killjoy]

In my opinion players who exploited this once or twice should only receive a warning and an infraction that counts towards their potential next breach of the ToS which would then result in a temp ban according to severity.

Players who did this more often or even excessively should be temp banned accordingly. Maybe up to 6 months for the very worst of offenders who also helped spreading the exploit around.

 

IMO instant perma bans should be reserved for things that impact the enjoyment of other players, like the guys continuously ruining ranked PvP for everyone else or racial slur, other kinds of bigotry and real life threats, with maybe one warning/temp ban issued if the case wasn't that severe. We really don't need those people in our community.

 

It really is a shame that BW doesn't crack down harder on the things that at least I consider to be far worse offenses.

 

The inconsistent and self-contradictory nature of their enforcement of their own rules is part of the issue here.

 

And I agree, they should direct their attention to things in proportion to their actual impact on the enjoyment of actually playing the game. Note that GTN PvP and raid gear e-peen don't count as playing the game -- or at least, don't count any more than using the game as it was released bugs and all.

[Pagy]

In my opinion players who exploited this once or twice should only receive a warning and an infraction that counts towards their potential next breach of the ToS which would then result in a temp ban according to severity.

Players who did this more often or even excessively should be temp banned accordingly. Maybe up to 6 months for the very worst of offenders who also helped spreading the exploit around.

 

IMO instant perma bans should be reserved for things that impact the enjoyment of other players, like the guys continuously ruining ranked PvP for everyone else or racial slur, other kinds of bigotry and real life threats, with maybe one warning/temp ban issued if the case wasn't that severe. We really don't need those people in our community.

 

It really is a shame that BW doesn't crack down harder on the things that at least I consider to be far worse offenses.

lol you want to ban people for typing words on the internet...because they...impact other players?

[Pagy]

You're right. Credit Card companies will investigate contested payments, but as soon as bioware sends them a copy of the TOS, that CC company won't be going to bat for the card holder. No one is getting $8k back because they got banned.

i take it you've never contested a payment with your cc before? CC companies are monsters, the amount of investigation they do is pretty limited and they just take what they want.

[HansAPilss]

I think bans transcend language barriers...

 

i hope it.

 

but ist not ok that we german Players didn´t get any Information about that. we have not a single post about this Topic.

 

thats sucks

[Knorlac]

lol you want to ban people for typing words on the internet...because they...impact other players?

 

If those words constitute continous violations of the ToS we all signed, yes. There should be no room for racists, antisemits, homophobes and their ilk anywhere, be it in real life or a gaming community.

[ivanhedgehog]

OMG a company released software with bugs? Wait they are a game company too? Wow, how dare them. All software works as intended at release, especially game. Why every MMO I have ever played has been totally free from bugs, well except "Life of Bugs: the Bug-ining". But they tried to fix it with the xpac "Stop Buggin".

 

 

 

Yes, Eric did this. He got up one morning and typed a post, then a week later typed another one. No one else was in on it, just him. No legal team looked it over. Get a grip. Oh and it would go away if they banned the cheaters. But alas that probably won't happen.

 

why in the world would that matter? defective product. just because you are an mmo doesnt make it go away. if the cc refunds based on defective product ea has no choice...that is unless they want to not accept credit cards.

[ImNotFatImObese]

Okay so maybe people shouldn't have exploited this. But the ones that should be punished are the ones who write the code and who test this. Obviously there is no beta testing anything before making it live. Which means we are the beta testers. If they are going to take action on people in game then maybe pink slips needs to be handed out in house to those who missed this and let this even be possible. Typical corporate world mentality pass the blame on and punish the wrong person(s). Just saying to be fair deal with the employees too. Makes you miss the days of Nintendo and Mario and God Mode.

[XiamaraSimi]

TLDR: 1) is there any proof this exploit was reported on Beta other then exploiter hearsay? I have heard it wasnt there & when the loot was hot fixed in it caused this to occur. 2) if you exploited, no amount of rationalizing makes it ok, man up take your medicine and get the sand outta your vajaj 3) BW step the F up and start fixing **** so people enjoy the game enough is enough back up what you say be transparent and get *********** busy no if and or buts. Look at the forums and start addressing the issues most threads or about. The end.

 

This is what i am now wondering. Everyone kept complaining they werent getting loot until they fixed it weeks agter it went live, yet then said they were able to steal loot since beta testing? Which is it boys and girls? Did the boss not drop loot or did you start saying he didnt to cover your own butts?

[howieloader]

If those words constitute continous violations of the ToS we all signed, yes. There should be no room for racists, antisemits, homophobes and their ilk anywhere, be it in real life or a gaming community.

 

What about sexual harassment?

[TUXs]

If those words constitute continous violations of the ToS we all signed, yes. There should be no room for racists, antisemits, homophobes and their ilk anywhere, be it in real life or a gaming community.

 

Freedom of speech only applies if you agree with it...right?

[RiVaN_]

If those words constitute continous violations of the ToS we all signed, yes. There should be no room for racists, antisemits, homophobes and their ilk anywhere, be it in real life or a gaming community.

 

I agree that those attitudes are poor and socially unacceptable, people should be more open minded.

 

This statement (of yours) to the community, that I have bolded, basically says that you have no tolerance for people whose views and opinions differ from your own and that you don't think they deserve to have a voice. That too is wrong. I do not agree with people who have a problem with homosexuals or people from a different country or racial ancestry than them, but I also will not deny them a voice to be able to speak their opinion.

If we tell them they cannot speak or that their opinion doesn't matter how can we expect them to listen when we share our thoughts? How do you expect them to try to understand your point of view when you refuse to even allow them to voice theirs?

Edited January 15, 2015 by RiVaN_

[Max_Killjoy]

Freedom of speech only applies if you agree with it...right?

 

Freedom of speech protections don't apply to a privately-owned medium such as the chat or forums for SWTOR.

[Drockter]

If those words constitute continous violations of the ToS we all signed, yes. There should be no room for racists, antisemits, homophobes and their ilk anywhere, be it in real life or a gaming community.

 

Well... thing is... that whole Freedom of Speech and Expression runs both ways... you can't protect it for one, and deny it for another.

 

While I do find these types of comments/conversations deplorable... I do believe they have as much right to speak as anyone else... I choose not to listen.

 

Now, if you are being harassed... then by all means /report, that is against the TOS.

 

If you simply disagree with their viewpoint.... the best thing to do is /ignore. The feature exists for that reason.

[TUXs]

Freedom of speech protections don't apply to a privately-owned medium such as the chat or forums for SWTOR.

 

Of course I understand that, I meant in general. Here, none of that applies.

[Pagy]

There should be no room for racists, antisemits, homophobes and their ilk anywhere, be it in real life or a gaming community.

the first amendment called...it suggesting you move to any number of countries in africa or middle east if you would prefer a culture that tells you what you can or cannot say.

Freedom of speech protections don't apply to a privately-owned medium such as the chat or forums for SWTOR.

ok, except he said "be it in real life or a gaming community" Edited January 15, 2015 by Pagy