ddarkangel Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Realsitically, most of the exploiting was probably done within the guild of the people who cleared the op. Clear it, then get their lvl 60 alts in, then get their guildmates and their lvl 60 alts in. Not really, Zorz members were selling locks at The Harbinger fleet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 In Consumer Law's (I am a lawyer) point of view, you are selling us a defective product. Analyzing the Terms of Service and Rules of Conduct, you, Bioware, also does not meet them. If that were actually true then you would have read the ToS properly and the part where you agree to use the product "as is" ( someone had posted about it in this thread somewhere ). also you would realise it does nothing at all mitigate the exploit used in this case. Also as a lawyer you should have no trouble proving this statement (no one has so far since I've started asking and I'm really curious to see if it's actually true or just misdirection): The exploit in The Ravagers existed since the Closed Beta. And don't give me any NDA crap, you've just breached it by making that statement if you actually had proof or were part of the closed beta. Law sure seems easy to get into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdeiphoVH Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 It provided unlimited amounts of gear, and materials that take legit raiders to get along time, and you say its not game breaking? it only takes a long time to get gear if you are a scrub and cant clear bosses. in 2 weeks i got 4 set pieces. theres what 7 total right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 This was not a hack or a cheat. Exploiting a bug for your personal gain = cheating thus punishment is deserved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDrail Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 ZOrz members??? well goodbye op and class guides Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Projawa Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 (edited) Forget Gamergate. ExploitGate 2014 When the forums are just as entertaining as the game itself. Edited January 14, 2015 by Projawa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horano_Heresy Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I hope for the sake of those who made a stand by not taking advantage of this horrendous bug, you come down hard on those people who exploited it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 . Are u going to sit there and say BW has lived up to their end of the consumers bargain here. There is plenty of blame to go around but some of u have forgotten that we are customers. Act like it, get BW do fix this product and make it worth the money we spend. Quit crying over crap that doesn't affect your real life and get ur idiotic arguments that this effects any of u in any way. Here is a tip spending real money on a bad product and then them not fixing it hurts u in real life. Priorities people... Whole heartedly agree! Bioware should do more to fix the bugs etc. In fact you should start a topic about it right now! Being that it's somewhat off topic for this topic right? Unless you are implying ( like many have ) that the bugs etc. justify the use of the exploit in wihch case just stop posting, that's foolish. Now to put your whole point into context ... you are here crying over the people crying over cheaters who exploited the game because they feel aggrieved. You state they should their priorities yet somehow you crying about them on a forum is more of a priority than them crying in the first place? Sounds kind of hypocritical don't you think? If you're whole response is to do the exact same thing the people you are annoyed with is doing everything you say above becomes rather moot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruceme Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Exploiting a bug for your personal gain = cheating thus punishment is deserved. hope you aren't using the cartel slot machines! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrishnaeMarcelle Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 (edited) I usually never post on these types of threads but I will make an exception given this comment: "In Consumer Law's (I am a lawyer) point of view, you are selling us a defective product. Analyzing the Terms of Service and Rules of Conduct, you, Bioware, also does not meet them" I question whether you know what you are talking about. You claim to be a lawyer, yet you are not even identifying the appropriate law applicable to this situation. Consumer Law refers to a category of laws designed to protect consumers from business who engage in unfair business practices or fraud. It also protects people from scam artists and thieves. I fail to see how Consumer Law applies in this situation unless you can identify what Bioware has done that constitutes unfair business practices or some act of fraud. To be clear, you are leasing the right to use this product as a whole. One small aspect of the program that does not function as intended does not give rise to liability. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the vast majority of the gaming working perfectly fine? Also, you claim that a defective product is being sold. How exactly is it defective? An operation not working as intended does not make the product defective. Also in order for a product to be defective, it has to be in a condition that is unreasonably dangerous. Even then, assume everything else is satisfied in order to make Bioware legally culpable for this situation, what is your harm? What are your damages? You claim to have analyzed the EULA. Did you see the part where this company made no warranties of any kind and your use of this game is "AS IS". Short story, don't claim to be a lawyer and dispense legal advice you know or should know is completely incorrect. Quite frankly if you are a lawyer, and I am pretty sure you are not, shame on you. So, the Consumer Law in your country is weak. In my country it also protects consumers who receive defective products, not just fraud. The thought of that "most of the product works is fine" is a bad thought. I really do not know the consumer's law in US, but beginning to think that there is something wrong with it. Someone who paid for a service or product have the right to receive it complete, in perfect condition. If there are vices or it does not work correctly, has the right to repair, to return the product and get the money back or get a discount and keep it. Should not be different anywhere in the world. Not being a lawyer I took the time to look up the product liability laws. From what I read there are 4 categories that these cases fall into. I think I can fairly say that SoRs whole release and actions to this point fall into the Negligence clause, they knew of some of these bugs prelaunch and NEGLECTED to fix them. Where is the outcry over this don't we want a good product. Or do u want to just argue with each other over Negligence on BWs part. Are u going to sit there and say BW has lived up to their end of the consumers bargain here. There is plenty of blame to go around but some of u have forgotten that we are customers. Act like it, get BW do fix this product and make it worth the money we spend. Quit crying over crap that doesn't affect your real life and get ur idiotic arguments that this effects any of u in any way. Here is a tip spending real money on a bad product and then them not fixing it hurts u in real life. Priorities people... ^^^^ Edited January 14, 2015 by KrishnaeMarcelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 ZOrz members??? well goodbye op and class guides Others would fill their shoes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdeiphoVH Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Sadly complaints fall on deaf ears, as 'we' continue to give them our money month after month, even when we disagree with their choices or actions. Only when players are pushed to the point they chose to discontinue their support of the game over accepting actions, inaction, decisions and such by the SWTOR team, will complaints register with EA. Even then, they may never end up doing those things we want them to do, as they may decide it is in their own best interest to choose a different path. At such a point, our only choices are to accept the service as is, warts and all, or withdraw our support for the game. My concern is with all the issues surrounding 3.0, from the small amount of content to their negligence in dealing with this exploit in a timely manner, to the lingering bugs, tuning and performance issues, along with the recent changes to commendations, they will alienate too many players from every end of the gamer spectrum and end up with a far smaller and fragmented community. And that is not what I'd like to see. I love Star Wars, like the game, and while I know it will never reach its full potential given its poor launch, would like to see it maintain a place as a successful game with ongoing development of quality content. I'd hate to see it shrink even more such that the revenue it provides EA is not enough to justify spending the money required to continue developing the game beyond just a shell of its former self. Hear Hear, Instead of arguing over whether or not the exploit is ban worthy etc...the fact of the matter is the "Exploit" was allowed to remain in the game after being on the test server, they could have locked the instance as soon as people started doing it, BEFORE there was even a post by Mr. Muscorwhateverhisnameis they could have shut the instance down, obviously they say they knew people were doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 hope you aren't using the cartel slot machines! No. At first I thought it sounded like quite a cool thing but it didn't really have any prizes I needed until it became clear how much it will rather unbalance the entire crafting economy. It will hurt me in some areas in fact though the cheaper mat price will assist my conquest goal each week at least. I make my fortunes via CM items mostly so that won't really change. It's actually a rather interesting point on this whole debate if it's justified repeatedly using this over and over to make a massive profit is exploitive or not. I feel that is personally. The debate will rage on and on no doubt, as to whether or not those that do should be punished like they did with ravagers exploit. Again I don't feel they are in the same boat though. Ideally in this case you are using an item to get X amounts of items and then choosing to resell them on GTN for a profit. What eventually happens is the value of X items devalues to the point the slot machine could stop being as profitable as it now is. Of course what this also means is those gathering mats now have their market devalued and will be annoyed ( and rage ) however there is nowhere in the rules that say materials should be worth a certain value so from a strict exploit perspective nothing has really been exploited in this regard. In other words it's nowhere near as clear cut as this ravagers exploit is. Still I hope if they are planning on remedying the slot machine which I feel they should they do so by Tuesday patch day ( though I feel also this is going to push cartel pack sales through the roof so it's profit for them, a good test on their true loyalties I guess in face of this ravagers exploit ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I know of 2 entire guilds on Harbinger on the IMP side who did it I know my guild hard out exploited this, won't name names but yeah, bit disappointing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 it only takes a long time to get gear if you are a scrub and cant clear bosses. in 2 weeks i got 4 set pieces. theres what 7 total right? That there is /thread! Everyone who can't get gear quick are scrubs and don't count so the exploiters should keep the gear. BEST justification to date. You win the forums! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 So, the Consumer Law in your country is weak. In my country it also protects consumers who receive defective products, not just fraud. In other words you're not a lawyer and can't actually counter any of the points either of us had made against you. Love it when kids pretend to be lawyers online, it's gold! FYI I'm from the CIa ... we're watching you and you're exploiting ways! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirazy Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 That there is /thread! Everyone who can't get gear quick are scrubs and don't count so the exploiters should keep the gear. BEST justification to date. You win the forums! The second point doesn't follow, but yes it is actually easy to get gear if you make it an active pursuit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrishnaeMarcelle Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 (edited) In other words you're not a lawyer and can't actually counter any of the points either of us had made against you. Love it when kids pretend to be lawyers online, it's gold! FYI I'm from the CIa ... we're watching you and you're exploiting ways! WOW... really? You also have those cool glasses and those gadgets that erase people's memories? Edited January 14, 2015 by KrishnaeMarcelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kunovega Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 (edited) you know what's funny. you worry about people who used this "exploit" why? because they got gear they could have gotten anyway for doing the op? lockouts have been sharable, always. all this saved was killing one boss. total gain? 15 minutes saved per character doing a boss you could only do once a week (and you could only "exploit it" once a week as well) bottom line, does it need to be fixed? sure, was it the end of the game? meh people doing it didnt even get the loot they would normally have gotten having completed the op weekly (which most raiders will be doing in full now) sooo..... this week? what did you put in? slot machines these arent an exploit but they hand out credits and purples like candy. you want to see whats going to single handedly wreck every server economy? and dont even pretend these are an exploit, you put them in, you made the rewards this high and theres no limit on their use. you were worried about what people made from ravagers? how about the MILLIONS people have made in just a few hours using slot machines? at least the ravagers lockout could only be done once per week. but slot machine money? unlimited and as quick as you can click good job, youre so busy trying to figure out how to punish people for your mistakes that you didnt even notice you have wrecked the economy even worse with something that isnt even an exploit. thanks for the slot machines. augments are now worthless, purple mats are now worthless and credits are being made faster than you can spend them Edited January 14, 2015 by Kunovega Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdeiphoVH Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I usually never post on these types of threads but I will make an exception given this comment: "In Consumer Law's (I am a lawyer) point of view, you are selling us a defective product. Analyzing the Terms of Service and Rules of Conduct, you, Bioware, also does not meet them" I question whether you know what you are talking about. You claim to be a lawyer, yet you are not even identifying the appropriate law applicable to this situation. Consumer Law refers to a category of laws designed to protect consumers from business who engage in unfair business practices or fraud. It also protects people from scam artists and thieves. I fail to see how Consumer Law applies in this situation unless you can identify what Bioware has done that constitutes unfair business practices or some act of fraud. To be clear, you are leasing the right to use this product as a whole. One small aspect of the program that does not function as intended does not give rise to liability. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the vast majority of the gaming working perfectly fine? Also, you claim that a defective product is being sold. How exactly is it defective? An operation not working as intended does not make the product defective. Also in order for a product to be defective, it has to be in a condition that is unreasonably dangerous. Even then, assume everything else is satisfied in order to make Bioware legally culpable for this situation, what is your harm? What are your damages? You claim to have analyzed the EULA. Did you see the part where this company made no warranties of any kind and your use of this game is "AS IS". Short story, don't claim to be a lawyer and dispense legal advice you know or should know is completely incorrect. Quite frankly if you are a lawyer, and I am pretty sure you are not, shame on you. How is multiple Operations bosses bugging out, (Cortanni, Underlurker, etc.) not part of the product? The product in the Shadow of Revan expansion would be the Questlines, and the Operations right? So how in the actual **** are you saying there **** isn't defective? There have been bugs in this game that have been around since the start of the game. Every patch they fix some of the more annoying ones, but add even more bugs. I For one am Tired of paying for a defective product. From this time forward, my sub is finished, we pay for a product that is marginally passable as a beta by any other QA team. Good bye, and **** you Musco, **** you Bromberg, and Lastly **** you community, you are all as toxic as the League community, playing with you has never been a pleasure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScarletBlaze Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 (edited) I have seen a few people on here try to give legal advice or try to explain the laws regarding the game and/or product and I have one comment to make about that: May I suggest one thing here, everyone stop giving out legal advice or trying to explain the legal laws. There is a legal ethics rule about that. I would leave the legal advice or the laws to the ones that actually have the qualifications and have passed the bar. (Association) (Side note: Thank you for providing an example for me this week as my Legal Ethics class in my paralegal class is regarding this) Association, A. B. (n.d.). MODEL RULES OF PROFESSIONAL CONDUCT. Retrieved January 14, 2015, from Rule 5.5: Unauthorized Practice of Law; Multijurisdictional Practice of Law: http://www.americanbar.org/groups/professional_responsibility/publications/model_rules_of_professional_conduct/rule_5_5_unauthorized_practice_of_law_multijurisdictional_practice_of_law.html Now go back to your arguing about what you all think should or should not happen with regard to this issue when BW will make the decision what they will do and all this arguing back and forth between everyone is just creating more drama. Edited January 14, 2015 by ScarletBlaze Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 The second point doesn't follow, but yes it is actually easy to get gear if you make it an active pursuit. Is or was? I believe it was with the ultimate comms if you were dedicated enough to play that much however now not so much and the content is still quite tricky to clear with minimum gear to get better gear. Still nowhere near as simple as running forward and clicking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BalpaChdal Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 The only reason this is a big deal is because the new ops are so damn buggy. If they were able to be completed by PUG's then everyone would already be in this gear and no one would give a ****!!! 3 months from now when the fights finally function right and everyone starts getting there hands on gear this **** will be a laughing matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 WOW... really? You also have those cool glasses and those gadgets that erase people's memories? Yes, it made you forget your career. you know what's funny. you worry about people who used this "exploit" why? because they got gear they could have gotten anyway for doing the op? This has been touched on numerous times in this thread and others, have a read and be educated. lockouts have been sharable, always. all this saved was killing one boss. total gain? 15 minutes saved per character doing a boss you could only do once a week (and you could only "exploit it" once a week as well) 99.9% of the game couldn't kill that one boss or get up to him in the first place to get the gear in HM, heck even in story mode people were and are struggling ( regardless if it's bioware buggy mechanics or actual difficulty ). It more or less eliminates the concept of progression until NiM releases. I do agree though the lockout sharing to skip straight to last boss should be fixed but it's not like people gain extra rewards for doing so usually do they? They get the reward for the boss they kill and I believe it skips and locks people out of getting the weekly? people doing it didn't even get the loot they would normally have gotten having completed the op weekly (which most raiders will be doing in full now) Anyone with multiple toons did, many uncleared to clear any new content. With 9 level 60 toons I believe they can then send that gear back to main and voila, 1 full set of 198 mods and enhancements per week - more if you have more toons. That's just the tokens too, not also the gear drops and re schems they were gaining as well as mats etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I For one am Tired of paying for a defective product. From this time forward, my sub is finished, we pay for a product that is marginally passable as a beta by any other QA team. Bye! Can I have your gear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts