Ravagers Exploit Action Update

[Briggology]

Punishments won't have any effect on server populations unless players quit (which they will threaten to do, but won't follow up on).

 

Ok, I was done posting and going to get back to the game, but I had to address this. This will very MUCH affect server populations. It's stuff like this that is why we went from 120 servers to 17. If you upset customers, only 20% come back.

[Andryah]

I worked in Data Warehousing for 5 years for a major financial institution and attended many conferences on Data Warehousing in that time (in business intelligence now).

 

While I don't disagree that what you propose is possible, many companies are simply not at that level in terms of intelligent data usage. Lots of companies don't even have the capacity to collect all the relevant information from their legacy systems in a warehouse architecture.

 

I appreciate you joining the discussion. We can at least have a discussion on the same page of understanding.

 

I understand your point...and you are correct... many companies are bad at it, because they can be (I guess). But it's very clear from simply listening to Bioware over the last three years that this particular product was built from early on to include pervasive analytics. They have presented too many nuanced pieces of data about the game and the player base to believe otherwise after 3 years. Which makes a lot of sense for an MMO company... given that everything a customer touches is just electrons moving.. and you have many hundreds of thousands of players (and even more characters), and content constantly being played, moving around, and customers needing assistance to recover from bugged content.

 

But I think having the information is only the first step of what you're asking for, they've expressed they have various data points, we don't know how comprehensive those points are, and we don't know what kind of manpower they have to interpret that data, nor the accessibility of it to convert it into meaningful results.

 

Absolutely correct. Collecting data is one part. Mining and using the data is another part.

 

They probably gather a much wider range of data then they actually need in most cases.. for those few times where "just in case" is appropriate.

 

It's hard to tell what they have canned analytics for, and what they need to do as one-off data analysis. I tend to believe that there is a set of data that they use a lot and therefore have robust analytics running in a variety of easy to use dashboards. This is true for some CS activity I'm sure, but I would guess that a lot of CS activity is more query form based (where they input specific marker data and get associated data in context back).

Edited January 14, 2015 by Andryah

[lightSaberAddiCt]

um...not sure what to say here. EA owns HeroEngine?

that's a shame

 

EA doesnt own HeroEngine, BW purchased a license to use it.

[Jadescythe]

Ok, I was done posting and going to get back to the game, but I had to address this. This will very MUCH affect server populations. It's stuff like this that is why we went from 120 servers to 17. If you upset customers, only 20% come back.

 

I can give you a laundry list of issues in this game. Multiply it by 100 and you get the issues at launch. That is why we went from 120 servers to 17. Despite all of it's issues, this game has a lot of positives for the players that are here and so those players will stay. Honestly, the percentage of the game's population that even participate in the content that the exploit was present in is absurdly low. When there is an exploit in casual content, you might see a significant percentage of the population taking advantage of it.

[AdeiphoVH]

there are limits to that tech. I helped build some of the prototype systems for that.

 

tis true...it kinda helps if they actually have that tech set up to collect data as well, but thats beside the point, its been 3 years they aint coming for me.

[DakotaDoc]

I can give you a laundry list of issues in this game. Multiply it by 100 and you get the issues at launch. That is why we went from 120 servers to 17. Despite all of it's issues, this game has a lot of positives for the players that are here and so those players will stay. Honestly, the percentage of the game's population that even participate in the content that the exploit was present in is absurdly low. When there is an exploit in casual content, you might see a significant percentage of the population taking advantage of it.

 

How do you know it is absurdly low? What is your data? Based on fleet conversations, I would say it was extremely high among players at LVL 60 where it was possible. Those not at end game, of course could not.

Edited January 14, 2015 by DakotaDoc

[g_land]

All items in game (other then perhaps gray vendor trash) will have unique ID numbers associated with them. So they could in fact comb the data warehouses and follow a mod from the point it was awarded within a piece of gear.... all the way to where it is today (including the trash bin). It's simply a question of how far they want to farm data and do they bother writing scripts to do it.

 

Is this actually true? I seem to remember at one point that there was a question as to whether buying crafted gear and then re'ing it to get the schematic was a fairly large discussion. Biowares response was that since people had to bind and wash it through a gear piece to re the item, it lost its specific I'd which prevented that and became a generic piece. From a long time ago but that is why things like enhancements/mods/hilts/barrels can be re'd if crafted by someone else as opposed to implants/relics/earpieces.

[Damishi]

Stage 1 – fix the issue and ensure players can no longer partake in the exploit. That change is out as of today in patch 3.0.2.

While you're at it, can you guys fix the Coratanni fight bugging on us when she goes into the capsule, instead she starts trying to kill the capsule?

 

Also, while you're at it, please fix The Underlurker cross bug not updating on tank (or agro'd) position.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Damishi

[DakotaDoc]

While you're at it, can you guys fix the Coratanni fight bugging on us when she goes into the capsule, instead she starts trying to kill the capsule?

 

Also, while you're at it, please fix The Underlurker cross bug not updating on tank (or agro'd) position.

 

Sorry, dev's have to go on a witch hunt first . All game updates and repairs you and I would so dearly like to see, are now put on hold. Stand by for severe server depopulation followed by server mergers.

Edited January 14, 2015 by DakotaDoc

[Drockter]

How do you know it is absurdly low? Based on fleet conversations, I would say it was extremely high among players at LVL 60 where it was possible. Those not at end game, of course could not.

 

Both of you are pulling numbers from thin air, or based purely on speculation/conjecture.

 

Fleet Conversations =/= statistical sampling... your assertions that "Extremely High among players at Lvl 60" is meaningless. I was on fleet last night as well... based on my experience the number is closer to the absurdly low side... very few conversations started on the subject... and when they did... the same unsupported arguments were made "85% of the server", "Every raider ever... ", "We raised a guy from the dead so he could come back and exploit".

 

Fake Number vs Fake Number fights are pointless.

[Briggology]

Sorry, dev's have to go on a witch hunt first . All game updates and repairs are put on hold. Stand by for severe server depopulation followed by server mergers.

 

Boo. Was really hoping for a fix on my Hood/Helmet clipping issue.

[DakotaDoc]

"We raised a guy from the dead so he could come back and exploit".

 

That made me LOL. Nice.....

[Jadescythe]

How do you know it is absurdly low? What is your data? Based on fleet conversations, I would say it was extremely high among players at LVL 60 where it was possible. Those not at end game, of course could not.

 

The percentage of players not at end game is significantly higher than you think.

[Briggology]

Both of you are pulling numbers from thin air, or based purely on speculation/conjecture.

 

Fleet Conversations =/= statistical sampling... your assertions that "Extremely High among players at Lvl 60" is meaningless. I was on fleet last night as well... based on my experience the number is closer to the absurdly low side... very few conversations started on the subject... and when they did... the same unsupported arguments were made "85% of the server", "Every raider ever... ", "We raised a guy from the dead so he could come back and exploit".

 

Fake Number vs Fake Number fights are pointless.

 

That was a quote of a quote of a quote of what I said about pissing customers off, and only 20% of them stay or come back. That number is a legit statistic.

[Drockter]

That was a quote of a quote of a quote of what I said about pissing customers off, and only 20% of them stay or come back. That number is a legit statistic.

 

Edit: Brig you're right... your original 20% quote wasn't the one in question. I agree that is a reasonable statistic.

 

This is the part of the conversation the other poster and I took issue with.

 

. Honestly, the percentage of the game's population that even participate in the content that the exploit was present in is absurdly low.

 

That number is purely conjecture and speculation, as was the persons math that I quoted.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Drockter

[Pagy]

What you seem to be having an issue understanding, is that CS is the lowest form of support, they just pass on issues to the support tier above them. They basically are given a script of replies and that is it. Now, I am not sure if you are just not aware of this, or selectively not aware so you can continue to try and troll andry.

this is possible, but giving L1 support zero tools is a pretty terrible strategy and neither you or i knows what they have access to.

[Jadescythe]

No.. here is your original comment that the other poster was replying to;

 

 

 

You have no real facts to back that up. I agree that if you piss customers off, a low percentage return... but thats not the stat he, nor I, took issue with.

 

Expansion has been out for just over a month. The people who are end game focused have been there for a month. Many players play to have fun and may have just recently or not yet hit 60. They may be jumping between characters. They may only play a couple hours each weekend when they have free time. They may not have even bought the expansion.

 

None of these players would be 60 and none of them are playing in end game content. That is the basis for my statement that the amount of players that could have even taken advantage of this exploit is absurdly low. Everyone on the forums expects everyone else is just like them waiting around for new content, when the reality is that the majority of the player base never come here, don't talk in chat, and just do what they find fun in the game.

[Pagy]

Honestly, the percentage of the game's population that even participate in the content that the exploit was present in is absurdly low.

let's accept this premise as true

When there is an exploit in casual content, you might see a significant percentage of the population taking advantage of it.

this might be true to, but i struggle to find the relevance to the ravagers exploit.

 

the ravagers exploit could be used by anyone with the expansion, level 60 (i assume) and has access to google or general chat...including casual players.

you're saying the number of exploiters are low relative to the overall playerbase include f2p, subs, people that dont have expansion or logged on for a year whatever. speaking in relative terms is exhausting. we don't know how many people exploited.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Pagy

[KrishnaeMarcelle]

Bioware, listen here.

 

There was an exploit in Dashroad. Nothing was done and today anyone who wants can go there to do, because still works today. No one was punished.

 

There was an exploit in Nefra, which lasted for many months, and a bandage was used to solve the problem that you have failed to solve. No one was punished.

 

There were exploiters in PVP. No one was punished.

 

With this, you said: thats okay, can do exploits, as no one will be punished.

 

The exploit in The Ravagers existed since the Closed Beta. You knew and released without solving the problem, perhaps a hurry, since it is apparent that this expansion was made in the midst of despair and run to show what you do something other than packs cartel.

 

The expansion is full of bugs. The Revan in solo mode, was a Russian roulette, where you never know if would work or not, and 98% of the time not worked. It took a week for a fix and we had to buy the preorder we could finally complete the story.

 

The lag problem continues, the Underlurker the problem continues, Strongholds disappeared lists of their owners.

 

You took six weeks for you to correct the exploit in The Ravagers. SIX WEEKS. The right thing to do would have been close the OPS until you might be able to solve, but not, you guys left to enjoying the holidays.

 

I spent a huge amount of credits under repair in Revan. I spent even more in Underlurquer.

 

Days ago, I could not play for that simply could no login. I emailed you, because I am already a subscriber and I need technical support, you sent me a standard response, two days later, telling me solve alone.

 

In Consumer Law's (I am a lawyer) point of view, you are selling us a defective product. Analyzing the Terms of Service and Rules of Conduct, you, Bioware, also does not meet them.

 

BioWare punishes who made the exploit. But who will punish Bioware?

And Zorz, what is the punishment for them? (not that I'm bothering with this, **** it!)

Edited January 14, 2015 by KrishnaeMarcelle

[EllieAnne]

Why punish exploiters?

No, really!

This was not a hack or a cheat. They took advantage of a bug and that is on BW and not us. If BW/EA was not putting out a product that was as bug-ridden as it is this may be different - no scratch that. Even if this were the only bug it is on Bioware and not us.

 

Consider it payback for all the game-breaking bugs and Harbinger crashes that we - the paying customers - have had to deal with the last 3 years.

Edited January 14, 2015 by EllieAnne

[Sorwen]

Honest to God, I LOVE the irony of this whole shart storm; how the story line of SoR was supposed to bring enemy factions together, and from an oversight in the code, has now created two factions of users that want to slit the others throats, flog, burn and smash their enemies. Great fracking job Bioware!

 

I wonder if this was all intentional on their part...take the game to a whole nother level.

To be fair you forgot "hear the lamentations of their women". I really want to hear the lamentations of their women too.

[ptwonline]

you're saying the number of exploiters are low relative to the overall playerbase include f2p, subs, people that dont have expansion or logged on for a year whatever. speaking in relative terms is exhausting. we don't know how many people exploited.

 

Realsitically, most of the exploiting was probably done within the guild of the people who cleared the op. Clear it, then get their lvl 60 alts in, then get their guildmates and their lvl 60 alts in.

[Bravari]

I usually never post on these types of threads but I will make an exception given this comment:

 

"In Consumer Law's (I am a lawyer) point of view, you are selling us a defective product. Analyzing the Terms of Service and Rules of Conduct, you, Bioware, also does not meet them"

 

I question whether you know what you are talking about. You claim to be a lawyer, yet you are not even identifying the appropriate law applicable to this situation. Consumer Law refers to a category of laws designed to protect consumers from business who engage in unfair business practices or fraud. It also protects people from scam artists and thieves. I fail to see how Consumer Law applies in this situation unless you can identify what Bioware has done that constitutes unfair business practices or some act of fraud. To be clear, you are leasing the right to use this product as a whole. One small aspect of the program that does not function as intended does not give rise to liability. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the vast majority of the gaming working perfectly fine?

 

Also, you claim that a defective product is being sold. How exactly is it defective? An operation not working as intended does not make the product defective. Also in order for a product to be defective, it has to be in a condition that is unreasonably dangerous. Even then, assume everything else is satisfied in order to make Bioware legally culpable for this situation, what is your harm? What are your damages?

 

You claim to have analyzed the EULA. Did you see the part where this company made no warranties of any kind and your use of this game is "AS IS". Short story, don't claim to be a lawyer and dispense legal advice you know or should know is completely incorrect. Quite frankly if you are a lawyer, and I am pretty sure you are not, shame on you.

[Lost-Savage-XIII]

Not being a lawyer I took the time to look up the product liability laws. From what I read there are 4 categories that these cases fall into. I think I can fairly say that SoRs whole release and actions to this point fall into the Negligence clause, they knew of some of these bugs prelaunch and NEGLECTED to fix them. Where is the outcry over this don't we want a good product. Or do u want to just argue with each other over Negligence on BWs part. Are u going to sit there and say BW has lived up to their end of the consumers bargain here. There is plenty of blame to go around but some of u have forgotten that we are customers. Act like it, get BW do fix this product and make it worth the money we spend. Quit crying over crap that doesn't affect your real life and get ur idiotic arguments that this effects any of u in any way. Here is a tip spending real money on a bad product and then them not fixing it hurts u in real life. Priorities people... Edited January 14, 2015 by Lost-Savage-XIII

[curulz]

Realsitically, most of the exploiting was probably done within the guild of the people who cleared the op. Clear it, then get their lvl 60 alts in, then get their guildmates and their lvl 60 alts in.

 

It was more wide spread than that. this thing was allowed to spread unchecked, and it was easy to spread which compounded the issue.