Max_Killjoy Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 People shouldn't be using the term witch hunt anyways as witch hunts punished innocent people and these exploiters are not innocent they are guilty of violating the Terms of Service. Calm down and read through the thread. Notice all the instances in which anyone who doesn't agree with certain posters is in turn accused of being "one of the cheaters". That's what parallels with witch hunts, or McCarthyism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 It's fallacious to presume your own preferences extend to many or even most players. It's also innapropriate to group scammers who swindle other players with exploiters who just got extra rewards from the game, without depriving anyone else of those rewards. Many players, including at least a few who did not exploit, are happy to play with (overgeared:)) exploiters. In fact, it's conceivable, given how many people have exploited over the years ("it was Garj"), that most players are perfectly fine with exploiting as long as it doesn't deprive them of something they earned. They may, in fact, view PvE-area gankers, ops loot ninjas, and players who dash in and click the object while you are fighting the mobs (none of which is an exploit) as being more annoying than Ravagers, Nefra, or Garj exploiters. I do. Well said. I'd much rather be in a group with "an exploiter" than a ganker, ninja, or poacher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danery Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Umm yea the CZ deal is intended it's not a matter of excuse it's a matter of reality all those other things are clear exploits and not intended so you adding the CZ thing doesn't make sense as it was a legit thing the developers put in put in the game so sorry your logic is very flawed. Show me where Bioware said it was a legit thing? Or do you get to define what is and isnt an exploit but others cant? I'm sorry but if the bosses mechanics are he disppears and then reappears and summons add a which requires you to release add b to kill it, and you've found a way to circumvent that by releasing all of the adds, and bioware hasnt said or done anything to address it that doesnt make it any less of an explot. How long was Gharj skippable? How long were you able to drag the boss in Athiss back to the pond? For a long damn time before they finally fixed it. There are still exploits out there in the Forged Alliance Flashpoints that you could do from the very beginning, and even in the new hm versions. Just because they have existed for a long time and people continue to do them now doesnt change what they are nor does it mean its legit anymore than the fact that one boss was lootable even if you didnt kill her for almost a month. Thats just making the same excuse people who used the exploit being discussed in this thread are making to base their justification on. An exploit is an exploit, and I very very seriously doubt that anyone posting in this thread can honestly say they have never ever ever taken advantage of a single bug in this game for convenience sake or to give themselves an advantage whether it be small like getting datacrons without using mechanics or very large like exploiting a bug to get free top tier gear. And when you call others out for using one, while being completely willing to use others to benefit yourself that makes you a hypocrite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagy Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) Reading and signing multiple NDAs does not provide you with any experience relevant to making a determination of whether a particular provision of an NDA would be enforceable or not, no more than reading a statute would make you competent to practice law or playing an MMO would render you competent to code one. No semi-competent attorney goes before a judge and 'argues': "Your Honor, I've read dozens of contracts, and this provision of this contract is unenforceable." Instead, they cite case law of the state in question where a court, preferably an appellate court, ruled that a similar provision in a similar contract was unenforceable. So tell me, regarding the provision being discussed, in the jurisdiction that controls for BioWare's NDA, what prior court precedent exists that ruled that a similar provision in an NDA signed as a condition to participating in beta testing of a game was unenforceable? I will wait.i said, written. laughable that you think all ndas are enforceable. ill have to look later for litigated examples of video game beta testing ndas. i imagine the list is pretty short. also laughable that you want me to make arguments based on a document i already requested seeing. im not sure what youre demanding here. i used a word "likely" then asked for the document to educate myself. now youre asking me to make arguments against a position is dont even have yet. but kudos for trying. Edited January 20, 2015 by Pagy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhadeus Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 People are saying that the punishments will not be made public and that they may have already happened. As someone who knows of someone who not only severely abused the exploit and charged people for admittance *cough...cough...RVA...cough...cough*, nothing has been done as they are still playing just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagy Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 People are saying that the punishments will not be made public and that they may have already happened. As someone who knows of someone who not only severely abused the exploit and charged people for admittance *cough...cough...RVA...cough...cough*, nothing has been done as they are still playing just fine.theres a guy on my server that sold it in gen chat for millions for weeks as long as i still see him posting in gen chat, y'all are ok lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiVaN_ Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Let it go, let it go Can't roll it back anymore Let it go, let it go Turn it in and do the Op some more! I don't care What the others say Let the forums rage on, The grind never bothered me anyway! Get out of here! Go! Now! 2 best laughs I've had all day! lol!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZETA_SCORPII Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Getting back on topic. I contend raiders are a likely minority and likely do not contribute as much financially to this game as the most likely majority casual playerbase. Therefore, making grand statements like banning the exploiters will destroy the game is just not a sensible contention IMO. Just my view of course. I agree. Raiders are not needed in this game and should all go away regardless if they participated in the exploit or not. Every single penny that is spent on creating raids is money wasted. NOBODY raids because it's not fun at all. Please BioWare, stop creating content for the 4 people in the game who raid. :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaizersan Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Show me where Bioware said it was a legit thing? Or do you get to define what is and isnt an exploit but others cant? I'm sorry but if the bosses mechanics are he disppears and then reappears and summons add a which requires you to release add b to kill it, and you've found a way to circumvent that by releasing all of the adds, and bioware hasnt said or done anything to address it that doesnt make it any less of an explot. How long was Gharj skippable? How long were you able to drag the boss in Athiss back to the pond? For a long damn time before they finally fixed it. There are still exploits out there in the Forged Alliance Flashpoints that you could do from the very beginning, and even in the new hm versions. Just because they have existed for a long time and people continue to do them now doesnt change what they are nor does it mean its legit anymore than the fact that one boss was lootable even if you didnt kill her for almost a month. Thats just making the same excuse people who used the exploit being discussed in this thread are making to base their justification on. An exploit is an exploit, and I very very seriously doubt that anyone posting in this thread can honestly say they have never ever ever taken advantage of a single bug in this game for convenience sake or to give themselves an advantage whether it be small like getting datacrons without using mechanics or very large like exploiting a bug to get free top tier gear. And when you call others out for using one, while being completely willing to use others to benefit yourself that makes you a hypocrite. It's not the option to pop all those adds has been in the game for over a year and it is not on BW lists of known bugs and you could ask Mucso or any of the other CM people on twitter and they will tell you no it is not a exploit it is a legit way to play it and the fact that you keep going on and on about it doesn't make you look smart or anything it just makes you look like a fool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gutzduken Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 If a HM/NiM guild sells a run through HM/NiM to gear a person, or get them the achiev/loot/mount etc., is that an exploit? I mean why would the guild that lawfully cleared the instance be punished? Now I'm not saying that anyone should get in trouble or shouldn't. I am just extremely confused about what is considered an exploit and what isn't. What is right and what is wrong atm? I mean if I sell an amazing get away car to someone and they rob a bank, you don't get in trouble for that...so would that be considered the same thing here? Head is hurting from trying to figure out what is an exploit and what isn't; or what goes against ToS and what doesn't. New Contraband Slot Machine even made me afraid to use it that much, so I made my SH public to let anyone use it to even out the playing field. But thought it was a bug too, took a few days to find out it wasn't. On a side note: If Ravager's is still bugged and you have to spend 1-2 hrs trying to figure out what will work to get the bug not to bug, and meanwhile you could have killed that whole instance another 2-3 times is that fair to us as well? (ie no pets out, reset instance-not working, leave phase come back hope door spawns) Or the newer bug on Underlurker we couldn't clear the fight this week because we ran out of time....is that fair to us? 3+ hrs spent just to clear 2 SM ops (not trying HM with these bugs), which should take half that time is INSANELY crazy, time consuming and upsetting. And not having anyone reply to our posts about these bugs with an ETA on when it will be fixed, or even that BW is aware of the situation, maybe try this, is more frustrating. (ie no pets out, tank and everyone else run to same rock, boss jump don't use hydraulic override or anything else that stops you from getting thrown, hurry to place hope that works on the bug, still hit for 40k+ oops someone moved, told everyone don't even move a little bit) I did not want to reply I really did try to stay out of it, but after the newest ops bugs I couldn't resist. I just want clarity on this...and answers to why we never get replies to bug threads when we ask , or sticky post it if you do address this issue. But don't leave us in the dark without giving us a small idea on to when this kind of bug will be corrected. Or what can we do to NOT bug the fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justinplainview Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) If a HM/NiM guild sells a run through HM/NiM to gear a person, or get them the achiev/loot/mount etc., is that an exploit? I mean why would the guild that lawfully cleared the instance be punished? Now I'm not saying that anyone should get in trouble or shouldn't. I am just extremely confused about what is considered an exploit and what isn't. What is right and what is wrong atm? I mean if I sell an amazing get away car to someone and they rob a bank, you don't get in trouble for that...so would that be considered the same thing here? Head is hurting from trying to figure out what is an exploit and what isn't; or what goes against ToS and what doesn't. New Contraband Slot Machine even made me afraid to use it that much, so I made my SH public to let anyone use it to even out the playing field. But thought it was a bug too, took a few days to find out it wasn't. On a side note: If Ravager's is still bugged and you have to spend 1-2 hrs trying to figure out what will work to get the bug not to bug, and meanwhile you could have killed that whole instance another 2-3 times is that fair to us as well? (ie no pets out, reset instance-not working, leave phase come back hope door spawns) Or the newer bug on Underlurker we couldn't clear the fight this week because we ran out of time....is that fair to us? 3+ hrs spent just to clear 2 SM ops (not trying HM with these bugs), which should take half that time is INSANELY crazy, time consuming and upsetting. And not having anyone reply to our posts about these bugs with an ETA on when it will be fixed, or even that BW is aware of the situation, maybe try this, is more frustrating. (ie no pets out, tank and everyone else run to same rock, boss jump don't use hydraulic override or anything else that stops you from getting thrown, hurry to place hope that works on the bug, still hit for 40k+ oops someone moved, told everyone don't even move a little bit) I did not want to reply I really did try to stay out of it, but after the newest ops bugs I couldn't resist. I just want clarity on this...and answers to why we never get replies to bug threads when we ask , or sticky post it if you do address this issue. But don't leave us in the dark without giving us a small idea on to when this kind of bug will be corrected. Or what can we do to NOT bug the fight. The Devs are fine with gear/loot runs, and they have gone on publicly in forums for literally years, without being shut down. People are trading credits f or a spot in a raid to drop loot or mounts and what have you, and I'm pretty sure what makes it okay is that it's a part of the in game economy, and you have to DO the mechanics and everyone in the raid clears that fight or that operation, and the loot that drops is the regular loot table and if the person who bought the loot is given the loot, it's not like the rest of the raid gets loot too. There's nothing extra going on. Gear Sales have been going on in MMOs for over a decade. They're fine in WOW, Final Fantasy, SWTOR, GW2, etc etc. And before people get their pitchforks out, I didn't exploit, you can check my achievements and inspect my gear, my only Coratanni kills are 8 man Story Mode and 8 man Hard Mode and I have combat logs for all kills on both difficulty modes and I'm nowhere close to BIS. So put the pitchforks away, folks. Edited January 20, 2015 by justinplainview Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuriDogshin Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 i said, written. laughable that you think all ndas are enforceable. Not as laughable as you blatantly represented what I've posted. Who do you think you'll fool other than maybe yourself? i used a word "likely". And even that is legal advice ("You will likely win in court if sued.") you seem "likely" to be unqualified to provide. Why don't you just stop giving out legal advice on the forums? Do you think you are getting respect or winning any arguments by doing so? I doubt that you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gutzduken Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Thank you Justinplainview I appreciate it. And for the update yes same here, but haven't gotten past some bosses on 16m others I have, and hm only 1 each. If the fights weren't so bugged then I could actually have bis SM gear and possibly some more HM gear, but atm not wanting to try too much on HM till bugs are fixed. That and I'm not too into progression anymore WOW killed me, and DP made me remember why! hehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quraswren Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 People are saying that the punishments will not be made public and that they may have already happened. As someone who knows of someone who not only severely abused the exploit and charged people for admittance *cough...cough...RVA...cough...cough*, nothing has been done as they are still playing just fine. Yea, I've ran into numerous who openly mock BW and sold the exploit for millions and used multiple times week after week. If none of those gamers disappear It will be easy enough to know nothing happened. Hell, if BW did something less than a ban but took their stuff away, They would talk about it and I'd know if they made a move or not. So far, I don't think BW has made a move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuriDogshin Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 So far, I don't think BW has made a move. There are rumors that they have. Only third hand tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivanhedgehog Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 So you'll take the word of someone who is breaking a legally-binding contract (the NDA) over that of the people who, without breaking an NDA, claim the bug did not exist during the first week of 3.0 on the Live servers? That's an odd choice in my opinion. the nda ended when the beta ended...dec 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivanhedgehog Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Raiders do not typically spend more than their sub. Traditionally they resist RMT and take a stand against it. This game COULD break the mold, so to speak, but I find it unlikely. It is more likely raiders here are like raiders in any other MMO...and they typically refuse to pay more than 15 bucks a month. The VAST majority of revenue likely comes from casual subscribers. proof please...actual proof..bioware income numbers will work..mmo demographics and attitudes change as time goes on... bioware knows where it gets its money from...you can be sure of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnyHoward Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Dunno if it matters but,,, I abused this exploit and geared 3 toons and I never got banned and Im still here, not that it matters as Im quitting anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivanhedgehog Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 For this game, perhaps. That contention could be made and i would not deny that. For the overall market, not so much. Superdata Research Newzoo The Daedalus Project Popular research blog You are welcome to read the studies and reports yourself and draw your own conclusions. I often do not agree with every conclusion they reach. I also highly recommend you attend the LOGIN conference if you can. Some great information related to market studies and gaming habits/target demographics and development. a couple of sites that will offer conjectural data for $$$$$= zero proof of your statements... 3rd site has been in hibernation since aug 2009.......zero value... get actual data and get back with us......if you ask bioware they might give you thier operational statistics....nnaaaaaahhhhh they wont Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pietrastor Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Wouldn't it be fun if Bioware nerfed the machine only for those who exploted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivanhedgehog Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Casual subscribers ? I thought subs were subs what do you class a casual subscriber ? someone that pays $15 and saunters away..........and is wearing sunglasses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justinplainview Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 the nda ended when the beta ended...dec 9 That's not how NDA works, friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fushnchips Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 the nda ended when the beta ended...dec 9 the NDA is always active even after the beta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivanhedgehog Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 That's not how NDA works, friend. thats not how YOUR nda works. every nda is different....nda's are not absolute. Most nda's are not written with the kind of penalties that the one I signed when I read off of a TS clearance. even that one has a definite end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivanhedgehog Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) the NDA is always active even after the beta you have the text? please share. an NDA is not a magic document...the kind where you pledge your soul. a NDA can be as simple as you pledging not to tell the secret I tell you under pain of me giving you a wedgie. Non Disclosure Agreement. It can be 60 pages of legalese stating that you have to pay $600 million if you tell. they are not all the same. I have seen beta nda's that expired the second the live servers come available. It all depends how they are written. If you know how bw writes theirs, please share. Edited January 20, 2015 by ivanhedgehog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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