Ravagers Exploit Action Update

[Danery]

So you'll take the word of someone who is breaking a legally-binding contract (the NDA) over that of the people who, without breaking an NDA, claim the bug did not exist during the first week of 3.0 on the Live servers?

 

That's an odd choice in my opinion.

 

They were reporting to Bioware, not the general public, that the bug was happening. Nice Try though.

[LordArtemis]

Apparently, people keep needing to be reminded that you did not need to be a raider to do the exploit.

You just needed to:

1. Have a L60 character,
   
2. Be a subscriber or have an ops pass, and
   
3. Know someone who had done the exploit.
   

 

So lots of non-raiders may have done the exploit, if nothing else than for the creds, mats, and schematics.

 

I will concede that is certainly plausible.

 

I will not concede that this is likely as widespread as some would want me to believe.

 

That said, I am not advocating nor standing against mass banning, or anything else that Bioware decides is prudent. My only point, much earlier in the thread was that I thought it was UNWISE for Bioware to do nothing, but I defer to their judgement.

 

I was simply speaking to the exaggerated opinion that banning everyone involved would hurt the GAME. I think it is more likely it would not, not even close.

 

Just my unsubstantiated view of course.

 

I also remember that loot bug being mentioned, and that some folks have indicated the "exploit" occurred because of the fix.

Edited January 19, 2015 by LordArtemis

[Pcolapat]

I will concede that is certainly plausible.

 

I will not concede that this is likely as widespread as some would want me to believe.

 

That said, I am not advocating nor standing against mass banning, or anything else that Bioware decides is prudent. My only point, much earlier in the thread was that I thought it was UNWISE for Bioware to do nothing, but I defer to their judgement.

 

I was simply speaking to the exaggerated opinion that banning everyone involved would hurt the GAME. I think it is more likely it would not, not even close.

 

Just my unsubstantiated view of course.

 

I also remember that loot bug being mentioned, and that some folks have indicated the "exploit" occurred because of the fix.

 

Lets do some math.

 

In my guild of subscribers, the average spent in the cartel shop this month was about a hundred dollars per player. Some spent more, some spent less. So if we use the 10000 players perma-banned example someone used a few posts ago. That equates to one million dollars. Multiply that times infinity because you just perma-banned them.

 

Now I do not think 10000 players exploited, but I think it was over a thousand, and that is still a very large number. That revenue loss would defiantly affect development, which affects those that did not do the exploit.

 

Careful what you wish for.

[LordArtemis]

Lets do some math.

 

In my guild of subscribers, the average spent in the cartel shop this month was about a hundred dollars per player. Some spent more, some spent less. So if we use the 10000 players perma-banned example someone used a few posts ago. That equates to one million dollars. Multiply that times infinity because you just perma-banned them.

 

Now I do not think 10000 players exploited, but I think it was over a thousand, and that is still a very large number. That revenue loss would defiantly affect development, which affects those that did not do the exploit.

 

Careful what you wish for.

 

First, raiders likely have NO standing financially in a modern MMO. That is simply a reality. It doesn't matter what kind of personal opinions, experiences or viewpoints are offered, this is a reality that you can BET Bioware is likely well aware of.

 

It just likely does not exist. So that is just a silly threat to make. All bark, no bite, so to speak.

 

Second, If you meant the "careful what you wish for" comment for me, your wasting your time. I have already made my opinion clear, and it clearly wishes for NOTHING with respect to this so called "exploit".

 

I don't care if they ban them all or do nothing at all. Either way is fine with me...after all, what these folks did or did not do didn't affect me in any way I can see, so why should I care? By the same token they, as a community, are responsible for most of the bad decisions the devs made in the early development of the game, and almost killed this title from launch.....

 

...so I have no pity for them either. Whatever comes will come. The only thing I am sure of is that it is likely most folks in the game will not notice either way.

 

This, IMO, is an issue for a very small portion of the community. And therefore is of little to no consequence.

Edited January 19, 2015 by LordArtemis

[branmakmuffin]

The fact that they are raiders is not what makes them significant. Most raiders are subscribers. The fact that they subscribe is what makes them significant. The fifteen dollars a month they spend to support the game is only the tip of the iceberg. Subscribers also spend more in the cartel shop. Subscribers likely get more free cartel coins from BW each month than F2P players spend each month. Subscribers are very important to this game. Perma banning thousands of subscribers would significantly hurt this game.

$15 a month from a rather small percentage of players (raiders who actually used the exploit). Oh, no!

[LordArtemis]

Raiders do not typically spend more than their sub. Traditionally they resist RMT and take a stand against it. This game COULD break the mold, so to speak, but I find it unlikely.

 

It is more likely raiders here are like raiders in any other MMO...and they typically refuse to pay more than 15 bucks a month.

 

The VAST majority of revenue likely comes from casual subscribers.

[Pcolapat]

Do you really believe Bioware would spend development time and money on raiding content if there was no return on that investment? Have there been more warzones added to the game than there have been raids added to the game? I don't know where you get the idea that catering to raiders does not produce profits in an MMO. They are certainly a smaller percentage of the total population, but they are perhaps the largest source of income. It is clear just from what the developers spend most of their development efforts on in this game.

[fushnchips]

Raiders do not typically spend more than their sub. Traditionally they resist RMT and take a stand against it. This game COULD break the mold, so to speak, but I find it unlikely.

 

It is more likely raiders here are like raiders in any other MMO...and they typically refuse to pay more than 15 bucks a month.

 

The VAST majority of revenue likely comes from casual subscribers.

 

I know lots of Subscribers aka raiders do spend more than just the $15 per month so you are wrong

[LordArtemis]

Do you really believe Bioware would spend development time and money on raiding content if there was no return on that investment? Have there been more warzones added to the game than there have been raids added to the game? I don't know where you get the idea that catering to raiders does not produce profits in an MMO. They are certainly a smaller percentage of the total population, but they are perhaps the largest source of income. It is clear just from what the developers spend most of their development efforts on in this game.

 

Of course not. But naturally I didn't say there was "no return", nor did I contend there was more warzones.

 

There most certainly was and is more casual content. And it is the spot where they have and continue to spend the most money.

 

The seem to spend the LEAST on PVP. That is likely the smallest portion of the playerbase.

 

One thing to be clear about....though hardcore players (PVP and raiders) typically do not spend more than the monthly fee and represent a minority they are the most LOYAL portion of the playerbase based on the same studies.

 

That means the revenue from those folks is more reliable. Steady. You can count on it. Casuals tend to be VERY transient in nature.

 

Unfortunately, however, investors and developers look to casual appeal and casual investment for revenue flow, as the money to be made is far greater with this portion of the population.

 

That is why I say it is a reality. All MMOs everywhere could lose ALL of their raiders and PVP players and still remain financially viable. They simply do not represent a substantial portion of an MMOs total revenue in the modern market any longer (generally speaking of course).

Edited January 19, 2015 by LordArtemis

[LordArtemis]

I know lots of Subscribers aka raiders do spend more than just the $15 per month so you are wrong

 

Raiders do not typically spend more than their sub.

 

The "subscribers aka raiders" you know do not likely represent a significant portion of the raiding community or the playerbase as a whole. Therefore your dismissal of my logic is silly at best. You can certainly say it is not your experience....that would make sense.

 

You could also say you don't FEEL like it is accurate. Nothing wrong with that.

 

But remember....typically....very important word in there. I didn't say all raiders. I said it is typical...meaning it is common but there are exceptions to the rule of course. And I also conceded this game could break the mold, so to speak.

Edited January 19, 2015 by LordArtemis

[Neoforcer]

Raiders do not typically spend more than their sub. Traditionally they resist RMT and take a stand against it. This game COULD break the mold, so to speak, but I find it unlikely.

 

It is more likely raiders here are like raiders in any other MMO...and they typically refuse to pay more than 15 bucks a month.

 

The VAST majority of revenue likely comes from casual subscribers.

 

Actually there is more end game raiders spending CC cash to keep up with the Jones in strong holds that are subs then you will ever know. Take for instance i bought CC coins to get the new slot machine for my guild ship. the top end raid guild on my server that has most of the new OPS on farm hears one of there guildies say hey my other guild ship has slot machine so i am not using mine i will hold onto them.

 

So the GM of this guild buy hyper crates with real world money because there the best raid guild on the server and no pvp guild is going to make them look bad. So they make there own casino on there guild ship. End game raid guild spent 100 dollars in CC coins as a sub just for slot machine. This is a true story so hardcore player don't like being shown up so they spend money. This happen alot no one in this game want to be shown up by the other guy.

[Pcolapat]

The idea that hardcore players do not spend more than 15 dollars a month is a misconception, and in fact the opposite of what is actually true. I am in a hardcore guild. The amount spent over the base subscription is very high in my guild. I spend quite a bit, but many of my friends spend way more than I do. A casual, AKA free to play player is too cheap to pay fifteen dollars a month. What makes you think a player like that is going to match what my friends spend. Sure there are more that do not subscribe, but you do not see BioWare throwing free cartel coins to them every month. Those players are just target practice for the real supporters of the game.

[dscount]

That's not necessarily true. People have reported that the bug that enabled the Ravagers loot pinata was introduced one week after 3.0 went live to fix a different bug that prevented anyone who was dead at the end of the fight with Cortani or at the end of the fight with Ruuger from getting any loot.

 

So while the no-loot bug may have been on the PTS (maybe?), the loot pinata bug apparently was first introduced on the Live servers.

This totally.. we had a guy die in the last fight and he couldn't even get back INTO the instance to loot his comms even. Pretty sure the exploit was opened up when they "fixed" loot for the last boss. This happened to our group for 2 people that week before the patch. Was annoying.

 

I have to chuckle about the "PTS BUG"... first all isn't anyone in that under NDA still? Second point - most the time anything is on PTS for new operations they usually have loot turned off. I'm just wondering how someone could have discovered this supposedly on PTS.

[Pcolapat]

Actually there is more end game raiders spending CC cash to keep up with the Jones in strong holds that are subs then you will ever know. Take for instance i bought CC coins to get the new slot machine for my guild ship. the top end raid guild on my server that has most of the new OPS on farm hears one of there guildies say hey my other guild ship has slot machine so i am not using mine i will hold onto them.

 

So the GM of this guild buy hyper crates with real world money because there the best raid guild on the server and no pvp guild is going to make them look bad. So they make there own casino on there guild ship. End game raid guild spent 100 dollars in CC coins as a sub just for slot machine. This is a true story so hardcore player don't like being shown up so they spend money. This happen alot no one in this game want to be shown up by the other guy.

 

This is exactly right. Keeping up with the jones's is what it is all about. A casual player is not cursed with this ego. Hardcore raiders are.

 

Example-I have four slot machines in my stronghold. Do I need four? No. but it is more than you have.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Pcolapat

[LordArtemis]

Actually casual SUBSCRIBERS likely make up the majority of the playerbase.

 

After that is likely f2p/preferred, followed by raiders, and finally PVP players. So, in order from likely largest group of players to smallest group....

 

Casual Subscribers

F2P/Preferred players

Raiders

PVP players

 

I just think it is more likely that raiders lack the numbers AND the spending power by a wide margin. I would make that bet all day and twice on Sunday.

Edited January 19, 2015 by LordArtemis

[fushnchips]

Actually casual SUBSCRIBERS likely make up the majority of the playerbase.

 

After that is likely f2p/preferred, followed by raiders, and finally PVP players. So, in order from likely largest group of players to smallest group....

 

Casual Subscribers

F2P/Preferred players

Raiders

PVP players

 

I just think it is more likely that raiders lack the numbers AND the spending power by a wide margin. I would make that bet all day and twice on Sunday.

 

I think you have incorrect data

[Pcolapat]

Actually casual SUBSCRIBERS likely make up the majority of the playerbase.

 

After that is likely f2p/preferred, followed by raiders, and finally PVP players. So, in order from likely largest group of players to smallest group....

 

Casual Subscribers

F2P/Preferred players

Raiders

PVP players

 

I just think it is more likely that raiders lack the numbers AND the spending power by a wide margin. I would make that bet all day and twice on Sunday.

 

and there are fewer millionaires than there are middle class. Which group do you think spends more money?

[Pagy]

i see lord artemis is back to making his arbitrary unsupported claims about "raiders" and revenue again.

 

too funny

[Infernixx]

I also have to chime in with my own personal experience. Most of the players in my guild are subscribers and they regularly buy Hypercrates for the goodies.

 

In fact, from what I've seen, most subscribers are heavy users of the CM.

[Pagy]

I have to chuckle about the "PTS BUG"... first all isn't anyone in that under NDA still? Second point - most the time anything is on PTS for new operations they usually have loot turned off. I'm just wondering how someone could have discovered this supposedly on PTS.

because they said so?

 

the dulfy vids are from the closed test server.

 

and i'd love to read this nda if it isnt timebound, would be likely unenforceable.

[BuriDogshin]

They were reporting to Bioware, not the general public, that the bug was happening. Nice Try though.

Then how did you learn of it, if they ONLY ever told BioWare?

[ZETA_SCORPII]

Actually casual SUBSCRIBERS likely make up the majority of the playerbase.

 

After that is likely f2p/preferred, followed by raiders, and finally PVP players. So, in order from likely largest group of players to smallest group....

 

Casual Subscribers

F2P/Preferred players

Raiders

PVP players

 

I just think it is more likely that raiders lack the numbers AND the spending power by a wide margin. I would make that bet all day and twice on Sunday.

 

Do you enjoy just making up data for this game? You read reports on other MMO's and assume that they apply to this game. Do you know how many ppl play this game who never play other MMO's? Stop assuming that only 4 ppl per server raid.

Edited January 19, 2015 by ZETA_SCORPII

[BuriDogshin]

Raiders do not typically spend more than their sub.

How did you conclude that? What is the source of your data on raider spending?

[xFREYx]

i bought CC coins .

 

Sorry but this made me chuckle

[LordArtemis]

I think you have incorrect data

 

For this game, perhaps. That contention could be made and i would not deny that.

 

For the overall market, not so much.

 

Superdata Research

Newzoo

The Daedalus Project

Popular research blog

 

You are welcome to read the studies and reports yourself and draw your own conclusions. I often do not agree with every conclusion they reach.

 

I also highly recommend you attend the LOGIN conference if you can. Some great information related to market studies and gaming habits/target demographics and development.