Ravagers Exploit Action Update

[HoodedStorm]

My guess is that people who profited from the exploit (selling the lock out) are the ones who are screwed.

 

As for Bioware. This exploit was reported to them before 3.0 left the PTS and went live. And has been live for 2 months now. This is their own fault it became so wide spread because they have such a lazy dev team it takes them months to fix bugs (if they ever get fixed at all).

 

As for them saying "most of you didn't use the exploit" I call BS. Everybody and their mother took advantage of this.

[TUXs]

I sort of understand. "Victimless crime" and what not. But at the end of the day, you knew you were using an exploit. You knew it was against the rules you agreed to follow.

 

I speed and roll through stop signs too, cuz that's how I roll.

[AAAAAAJKKRRYZZ]

There is a legal defense based on exactly this reasoning: laches, "an unreasonable delay in bringing a claim."

 

Ha, boom. See lawyers come in handy when they are on your side.

[Lost-Savage-XIII]

I am not going to talk about this "exploit" way to many people are whining over things that have NO effect on them whatsoever. I am mad because they will spend the time filling us with tales of what they will do and then do nothing. Meanwhile people with real issues get ignored, real bugs reports that effect raids get ignored, real win trading that effects people gets ignored. I have a whole guild ready to unsubscribe if something gets done about this and the bugs that have been waiting to get fixed stay unfixed. Everyone was wrong BW and everyone who used this, but enough crying you fixed it. Move on and fix the bug that wiped my raid even after Master n Blaster were dead. Stop wasting time on this. Bug reports are three weeks old and not closed get back to work only better this time.

[Felkroth]

My guess is that people who profited from the exploit (selling the lock out) are the ones who are screwed.

 

Kinda funny...considering they put a huge target on their back by being the only guild still in North America that is able to clear HM Ravagers...heh.

[Sangrar]

Ha, boom. See lawyers come in handy when they are on your side.

 

yes.... until you have to pay a huge bill for defending you so well

[DarkLordSnake]

Seriously. The analogy would be if before you were even able to set foot on the porch you had to sign a contract that said "I promise not to touch the bowl of money" or before coming onto the magic apple orchard you had to sign a contract that said "I promise to only take one apple a day", etc., etc., etc.

 

I only ran Ravengers just for the story mode to complete it, nothing more. At that time I thought this was a ordinary bug, I have no clue what exploits even meant before.

[AAAAAAJKKRRYZZ]

Kinda funny...considering they put a huge target on their back by being the only guild still in North America that is able to clear HM Ravagers...heh.

 

I could see a lot of other people doing it too though since once you went in there and collected the loot you got the lockout too, so then you could sell it as well.

[AAAAAAJKKRRYZZ]

yes.... until you have to pay a huge bill for defending you so well

 

Ha, better than going to jail.

[sd_bluesrt]

I'm still wondering at how much people think they're 100% important to the game. Let me explain.

 

Raiders hardcore or casual, think they're the backbone of the game. Like millions of them or something.

 

PVP players like to think they're the backbone of the game. Like millions of them.

 

Now, I'm not saying there aren't alot of raiders or pvpers in the game. But not every single raider or raid guild did this exploit. Maybe out of, let's say a total of 100,000 raiders, maybe only 20,000 took advantage of the exploit. Yes, a majority of those raiders, hard or causal, were subs, but I'm pretty sure some of them were f2p or pref with ops passes.

 

Even if they banned every single person in the game who touched the exploit at all, once, twice, or multiple times. Out of every single server, every single guild, and every single person in game that's MAYBE 5-10%. Also, if their buddies left with them, that's another 1-5%. They lost a total of maybe 15-20% of the gamer population, Still profits to be had. So, whatever bioware does, the game isn't going to die out. New people will come and replace them and just cause 3.0 wasn't the greatest expansion, there will be more.

 

Next time, reread the TOS and know, exploiting = bad, action taken or not.

 

You have hard data that shows that only 15-20% of people partook in the exploit or was that simply an unfounded arbitrary number you pulled out of your brown eye? That's what I thought.

 

You've clearly no business sense about you,.

A) 1 bad customer response hurts more than 1 good customer response helps.

B) Having 20%, as you said, of your customers leave a business is detrimental. Businesses crash on far smaller margins. If tomorrow your boss said that you were going to make 20% less this year than you did last year, would you stay with your company? Reduced income means less profit. Less profit means staffing becomes smaller. Less staffing means that these bugs and exploits take even longer than the 3+ weeks this instance took. The games value could possibly fall out from under itself. Not even post-movie release subs could save the game. Of course, this is incredibly drastic, but a possible reality nonetheless.

C) It's not just the $14 per month that BW would lose. There are countless people who spend double, triple, even quadruple their subscriptions value each month in the cartel market. For that customer, the serious player, Bioware would have to entice 5 new players just to break even. Even before the bans roll out, Bioware can't even come close to that.

D) There would be indirect consequences of swinging a large axe as well. How many people only continue to play because they have friends in the game? How many would leave if their friends chose not to re-sub after the ban? It may be a small number, but the number is important, especially as Bioware gasps for air while drowning in unprofitability.

E) While the economic climate for a few items, such as end game crafting materials, was temporarily shifted in favor of the buyer, it will regain balance shortly. As more and more people hit 60, the need for those materials will increase. However, the servers economy will spiral downward if 20% of its core supporters leave. Imagine if 20% of the US tax base were to disappear over night. Our government would be so screwed it would think it were a **** star.

 

Any good CFO would be pleading developers to use a squeaky gavel instead of a sledgehammer. Anyone with the slightest bit of business sense would be pushing for a soft reaction, especially when support is needed more than ever. This could cause a chain reaction that Bioware is unaware of.

[TUXs]

Ha, better than going to jail.

Debatable - Jail sentences have definitive ends...lawyer bills can linger forever!!!!! And have you ever tried to plead for a lesser bill?! You'll have better luck in jail.

[AAAAAAJKKRRYZZ]

This could cause a chain reaction that Bioware is unaware of.

 

BW is more than aware of it, at least, like you said, the business side of the house is.

[BuriDogshin]

Kinda funny...considering they put a huge target on their back by being the only guild still in North America that is able to clear HM Ravagers...heh.

 

"They?" A single player who cleared HM Ravagers, let's call him or her "Exploiter 0," (similar to "Patient 0" in epidemiology) could have been the ultimate source of every single exploit that happened after that. You should not blame an entire guild or an entire raid group for something that might have been done by only one of their members.

[DarthDymond]

There is a legal defense based on exactly this reasoning: laches, "an unreasonable delay in bringing a claim."

If we're throwing around legal jargon - how about a "No Waiver" clause in a contract? You know, the standard clause in most contracts that says if one party chooses not to strictly enforce the provisions of a contract, it doesn't mean they've forfeited the right to start enforcing those provisions at a later date.

 

Kind of like §19-C of the Terms of Service that apply to this game:

19. General Terms

C. Waiver. The failure of EA to exercise or enforce any right or provision of this Terms of Service will not constitute waiver of such right or provision. Any waiver of any provision of this Terms of Service will be effective only if in a writing signed by EA.

 

EDIT: And the EUALA for that matter:

Miscellaneous

No Waiver. No failure to exercise, nor a delay in exercising, any right or any power hereunder shall operate as a waiver thereof, nor shall any single or partial exercise of any right or power hereunder preclude further exercise of any other right hereunder. In the event of a conflict between this EUALA and any applicable purchase or other terms, the terms of this EUALA shall govern the relationship between you and EA.

Edited January 13, 2015 by DarthDymond

[Kdogfury]

The fanboyism is strong here.. yes exploiting cheating etc is wrong.... but so is paying for a broken product.

 

Ok I get it.. I've seen enough exploits in enough games and normally these things are found and players are dealt with within a week tops.. were on like a month and a half now of said issue being live ingame... are you people so blind to how life works you don't even conceive to blame the people that get paid to avoid/fix things like this in a timely manner?

 

I stand by my origional assessment in hoping the punishment is just good enough to cost them just enough subs to get bioware employees fired. We are paying customers and they get paid well to maintain their product.

 

I need to come up with a nice crappy product wrapped in lightsaber paper.. apparently as long as its shiny and says star wars ill never be responsible for the quality of the product in the eyes of many on these forums lol.

[AAAAAAJKKRRYZZ]

If we're throwing around legal jargon - how about a "No Waiver" clause in a contract? You know, the standard clause in most contracts that says if one party chooses not to strictly enforce the provisions of a contract, it doesn't mean they've forfeited the right to start enforcing those provisions at a later date.

 

Kind of like §19-C of the Terms of Service that apply to this game:

19. General Terms

C. Waiver. The failure of EA to exercise or enforce any right or provision of this Terms of Service will not constitute waiver of such right or provision. Any waiver of any provision of this Terms of Service will be effective only if in a writing signed by EA.

 

Both legal arguments have precedence. This would def have to go to the SCOTUS if people get banned.

[HoodedStorm]

The fanboyism is strong here.. yes exploiting cheating etc is wrong.... but so is paying for a broken product.

 

Ok I get it.. I've seen enough exploits in enough games and normally these things are found and players are dealt with within a week tops.. were on like a month and a half now of said issue being live ingame... are you people so blind to how life works you don't even conceive to blame the people that get paid to avoid/fix things like this in a timely manner?

 

I stand by my origional assessment in hoping the punishment is just good enough to cost them just enough subs to get bioware employees fired. We are paying customers and they get paid well to maintain their product.

 

I need to come up with a nice crappy product wrapped in lightsaber paper.. apparently as long as its shiny and says star wars ill never be responsible for the quality of the product in the eyes of many on these forums lol.

 

I like this person.

[Kussadjustin]

"On the plus side, most players didn't partake in the exploit at all allowing us to focus on the few who did"

 

I know for a fact that is a lie your looking at least 50% of the pop of the server that took advantage now many of them may not have had 13 alts like i do but just because they only had one 60 doesn't make there crime any less worse. So

I am honestly not worried that i am going to possibly be perma banned. i am more worried at the number of people i know that all exploited this on as many toons as they could and what that is going to do to the population of the servers and eventually the success of a game that i love.

[Eanelinea]

*sigh*

 

Look, you exploited, you're going to get punished with SOMETHING by Bioware. Take your punishment like a man/woman and stop trying to justify doing wrong as okay cause you don't want to get in trouble. Maybe next time, you'll actually follow the rules, wait, never mind. Once a ruler breaker, always a rule breaker. (This is why there are jails)

[AAAAAAJKKRRYZZ]

*sigh*

 

Look, you exploited, you're going to get punished with SOMETHING by Bioware. Take your punishment like a man/woman and stop trying to justify doing wrong as okay cause you don't want to get in trouble. Maybe next time, you'll actually follow the rules, wait, never mind. Once a ruler breaker, always a rule breaker. (This is why there are jails)

 

Lol, most people would argue the purpose of jails is to reform rule breakers, not send them there indefinitely. What you said is like sending people to jail for life because they jaywalked.

[Grayseven]

Both legal arguments have precedence. This would def have to go to the SCOTUS if people get banned.

 

Nope. Contract was signed and agreed to in order to play the game. Everything else is invalid.

[DarthDymond]

Nope. Contract was signed and agreed to in order to play the game. Everything else is invalid.

I think your sarcasm detector might need some adjusting.

 

For those who don't recognize the acronym, SCOTUS = Supreme Court of the United States.

Edited January 13, 2015 by DarthDymond

[Drockter]

Exactly this.

 

BW has shown a well-documented pattern of not caring about exploiters. Or not caring enough to do anything about them other than fix the exploits. Both PVP and PVE.

 

Google is your friend... I found many articles/pages where Bioware did react to exploiters, and other violations of the TOS.

 

So, if BW doesn't care, then why should we?

 

Please see above, google is your friend. But besides that, you agreed not to exploit when signing up for the game... you rolled the dice, and lost. The ToS was never changed.

 

And if BW suddenly decides to care, are we supposed to read their minds and just 'know' that the Ravagers things is srs bsn and exploiting is a terrible thing all of a sudden?

 

Exploiting has always ALWAYS been frowned upon in ever MMO that I can recall... again... Bioware has acted on exploiters before (2 notable instances come to mind)... both less severe than this particular instance.

 

You can't ignore a problem for months and months and then suddenly decide not to ignore it anymore and get mad at people for noticing and reacting to your previous attitude of don't-care-about-exploits.

 

Actually, they can... its in the ToS. Theirs is the final determination.

[LadyVix]

Lol, most people would argue the purpose of jails is to reform rule breakers, not send them there indefinitely. What you said is like sending people to jail for life because they jaywalked.

 

The problem here is that there are so many people that refuse to "man up" and admit their ill deeds. With one exception posted in another thread, all the players who took part in this have chosen to blame Bioware rather than admit their obvious wrongdoing. If you refuse to admit your wrong, how would you expect to be "reformed?"

 

Penalties will scale depending on the severity of each individuals participation. How is that not fair?

[AAAAAAJKKRRYZZ]

I think your sarcasm detector might need some adjusting.

 

For those who don't recognize the acronym, SCOTUS = Supreme Court of the United States.

 

Thank you