The ShadowSin Report

[MusicRider]

Are you really this thick or just acting like it?

 

Who talked to you? And are you acting macho on a forum for lack of better answers (shows who is the thick one here).

[sithBracer]

a) Weren't you the one that suggested cleanse as the primary solution? Change of heart? Is this another long thought and measured decision or will you change again after a week? Anything not to nerf your class.

 

b) Have you ever played 2.10 madness sins?

 

ummm, who was this addressed to?

[MusicRider]

ummm, who was this addressed to?

 

Lack of quotation tends to refer to original post unless from the context can be derived that it is a followup.

[ScrubinMuhTub]

Cleanse mechanics do a great deal to neuter a DoT spec in pvp and have zero impact on PvE. If that's your goal - have at it. You won't see any DoT specs in any serious PvP environment.

 

Another common suggestion is to kill DoT spread - Take one look at 3.0 and tell me BioWare didn't specifically add a DoT spread mechanic to nearly every class. Consider that and ask yourself if you think removing DoT spread is going to happen?

 

I agree that Hatred is BiS when it comes to any comp. It has a solution to every problem and no other class in the game provides that in PvP. If you want to bring it back in line, you have to start looking at those solutions and cutting them out.

 

In regs or Arenas, DCD's are even more pronounced than ever before - they are class defining and shape the entire approach to gameplay. That isn't unique to SWTOR, but it is perhaps more pronounced in my brief history here than it has been in the past. Looking across the playing field, one smart player picks apart the enemy team for the weakest link - sure they all do damage, but which one can we get to stop. dealing. damage.

 

You won't see Hatred on the list. There are a few that rise to the top - priorities not necessarily because they are strong, but because their ability to hold on to their hitpoints is akin to a 3 fingered man holding a palm full of water. Sniper, I'm looking at you.

 

So what do you do? Get out your flamethrowers boys and girls, because the single largest nerfbat I can legitimately see happening to Hatred (for PvP) is the removal of a Utility that grants 2 additional seconds of Force Shroud.

 

Two seconds doesn't sound like much. Force Shroud is a purge, and it grants all kinds of delicious CC immunity (there are a couple mez stuns that still work). Force Shroud allows you to operate with near perfect impunity to set up your dots, position your DoT spread via Death Field, and proc your first Crushing Darkness. Force Shroud is the key ability that allows the player, regardless of circumstance, to set the stage of combat on their terms.

 

Before you get me twisted, I'm not saying 'nerf Force Shroud'. I'm simply spelling it out for those who might not see what's going on under that fuzzy, lovey, cuddley tickle-bear named Hatred. Those two additional seconds give you the GCDs to pursue life, liberty, and happiness. They also happen to stack on top of another utility - one that grants two seconds of Force Shroud on your combat stealth.

 

That's right - I'm not sharing anything new, but let's clarify for those who aren't savvy. Two Utilities, when taken together, grant 9 seconds of Force/Tech immunity over two separate cooldowns, each with roughly a minute timer.

 

I get to purge twice. I get to dance for free twice. I get to make important plays - TWO TIMES with large windows in which to move and act freely.

 

And I fundamentally believe this is the crux of the problem that lies within the Hatred spec. It's not the immunity on deflection - that's ancillary. It's not the omgDoTspread - that's necessary. It's not the bbqwtf burst - it's not there.

 

It's the two extra seconds of Force Shroud.

 

Come at me bro.

Edited January 14, 2015 by ScrubinMuhTub

[Evolixe]

It's the two extra seconds of Force Shroud.

 

Come at me bro.

 

Oh you mean the utility talent I don't even take?

[sithBracer]

Oh you mean the utility talent I don't even take?

 

Does anyone other that a tank take it?

[Evolixe]

Does anyone other that a tank take it?

 

I couldn't imagne why.

[ScrubinMuhTub]

Oh you mean the utility talent I don't even take?

 

Tell me you aren't taking Fade

[Aelanis]

Cleanse mechanics do a great deal to neuter a DoT spec in pvp and have zero impact on PvE. If that's your goal - have at it. You won't see any DoT specs in any serious PvP environment.

 

Another common suggestion is to kill DoT spread - Take one look at 3.0 and tell me BioWare didn't specifically add a DoT spread mechanic to nearly every class. Consider that and ask yourself if you think removing DoT spread is going to happen?

 

I agree that Hatred is BiS when it comes to any comp. It has a solution to every problem and no other class in the game provides that in PvP. If you want to bring it back in line, you have to start looking at those solutions and cutting them out.

 

In regs or Arenas, DCD's are even more pronounced than ever before - they are class defining and shape the entire approach to gameplay. That isn't unique to SWTOR, but it is perhaps more pronounced in my brief history here than it has been in the past. Looking across the playing field, one smart player picks apart the enemy team for the weakest link - sure they all do damage, but which one can we get to stop. dealing. damage.

 

You won't see Hatred on the list. There are a few that rise to the top - priorities not necessarily because they are strong, but because their ability to hold on to their hitpoints is akin to a 3 fingered man holding a palm full of water. Sniper, I'm looking at you.

 

So what do you do? Get out your flamethrowers boys and girls, because the single largest nerfbat I can legitimately see happening to Hatred (for PvP) is the removal of a Utility that grants 2 additional seconds of Force Shroud.

 

Two seconds doesn't sound like much. Force Shroud is a purge, and it grants all kinds of delicious CC immunity (there are a couple mez stuns that still work). Force Shroud allows you to operate with near perfect impunity to set up your dots, position your DoT spread via Death Field, and proc your first Crushing Darkness. Force Shroud is the key ability that allows the player, regardless of circumstance, to set the stage of combat on their terms.

 

Before you get me twisted, I'm not saying 'nerf Force Shroud'. I'm simply spelling it out for those who might not see what's going on under that fuzzy, lovey, cuddley tickle-bear named Hatred. Those two additional seconds give you the GCDs to pursue life, liberty, and happiness. They also happen to stack on top of another utility - one that grants two seconds of Force Shroud on your combat stealth.

 

That's right - I'm not sharing anything new, but let's clarify for those who aren't savvy. Two Utilities, when taken together, grant 9 seconds of Force/Tech immunity over two separate cooldowns, each with roughly a minute timer.

 

I get to purge twice. I get to dance for free twice. I get to make important plays - TWO TIMES with large windows in which to move and act freely.

 

And I fundamentally believe this is the crux of the problem that lies within the Hatred spec. It's not the immunity on deflection - that's ancillary. It's not the omgDoTspread - that's necessary. It's not the bbqwtf burst - it's not there.

 

It's the two extra seconds of Force Shroud.

 

Come at me bro.

 

While I appreciate a reasoned approach looking at why Hatred is doing so well, and can largely agree that there's too little that can be done to hold Hatred down, I'd rather see something else go. In PvE, having 2 extra seconds of Shroud makes you feel like a God, able to walk through the fires on Torque HM with impunity, which gives us a very large advantage over other melee classes that can't do that, and is one of the only reasons we can keep reasonable uptime. There are so many melee unfriendly mechanics in this game that can be mitigated with Shroud that I'd be devastated to lose that extra two seconds in PvE. Let's not even get started on how bad it would be for tanks in PvE, either.

[Evolixe]

Tell me you aren't taking Fade

 

Duh.. of course I am.

 

2 extra seconds of shroud is nothing but a luxury. A luxury most good players will know to circumvent and make practically useless. Because lets be fair here.. if you're still pumping force/tech attacks into a sin that has been shrouding for the past 3 seconds you are pretty ****.

 

An extra purge per arena round on the other hand can mitigate an unprecedented amount of damage that nobody would be able to avoid.

[ScrubinMuhTub]

An extra purge per arena round on the other hand can mitigate an unprecedented amount of damage that nobody would be able to avoid.

 

You won't hear argument from me about the extra purge, as only a fool would not see a second purge on demand as an incredible increase in survivability.

 

I am, however, simply offering what I believe to be the mostly likely, and effective nerf. My money is that both assassin and operative will forever maintain their purge-on-vanish utility, simply from a design stand point.

 

EDIT: Another likely solution is taking away the 100% increase in heal received from Leeching Strike that is found within the Discipline. Having such an effective 'medpack' every 15 seconds is another key component to Hatred survivability.

Edited January 14, 2015 by ScrubinMuhTub

[Evolixe]

You won't hear argument from me about the extra purge, as only a fool would not see a second purge on demand as an incredible increase in survivability.

 

I am, however, simply offering what I believe to be the mostly likely, and effective nerf. My money is that both assassin and operative will forever maintain their purge-on-vanish utility, simply from a design stand point.

 

EDIT: Another likely solution is taking away the 100% increase in heal received from Leeching Strike that is found within the Discipline. Having such an effective 'medpack' every 15 seconds is another key component to Hatred survivability.

 

If cleanses come back I sure hope not.

 

It's a retardproof button that I'd rather see go away.

[Evolixe]

You won't hear argument from me about the extra purge, as only a fool would not see a second purge on demand as an incredible increase in survivability.

 

I am, however, simply offering what I believe to be the mostly likely, and effective nerf. My money is that both assassin and operative will forever maintain their purge-on-vanish utility, simply from a design stand point.

 

EDIT: Another likely solution is taking away the 100% increase in heal received from Leeching Strike that is found within the Discipline. Having such an effective 'medpack' every 15 seconds is another key component to Hatred survivability.

 

I don't think the heal is op in in itself. But it IS op that it deals just as much damage as that it heals for.

At least for PvP.

 

I'd rather see the damage get nerfed and the healing kept though, because our survivability really isn't what makes the class so ****wtfbbq.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Evolixe

[ScrubinMuhTub]

Fair. I'm on the other side of the fence, in that I appreciate being able to Leeching Strike - Execute and if the moons align I have a period of burst.

 

That isn't to say I don't see where you are coming from. I only picked up Hatred/Madness about two months before 3.0 (as a returning player, having never played the spec), and when the new expansion dropped, Leeching Strike felt like something 'a little extra' and nearly unnecessary.

 

That said, I'm not arguing for it's removal - the idea alone is ridiculous as BioWare has too much invested in the damn thing already.

 

Anyways - I've been considering your other utility - Recklessness? I considered the extra charge, but wrote it off as not being maximized. Granted, I'm about 15-20% underperforming in dps compared to the top players on my server, and they are about 20-40% over many others in that respect, so I'm willing to admit that I'm missing something.

 

If I picked up a third charge of Recklessness, is my idea to use it for Spike, Deathfield, Demolish, or am I off in left field and you REALLY took Fade.

[Evolixe]

If I picked up a third charge of Recklessness, is my idea to use it for Spike, Deathfield, Demolish, or am I off in left field and you REALLY took Fade.

 

Fade > Disjunction. By a mile.

[ScrubinMuhTub]

Evolixe - King of Troll Edited January 14, 2015 by ScrubinMuhTub

[Evolixe]

Fail troll is fail. Killin me here.

 

You're not doing very good at it, no

[Xinika]

Cleanse mechanics do a great deal to neuter a DoT spec in pvp and have zero impact on PvE. If that's your goal - have at it. You won't see any DoT specs in any serious PvP environment.

If Cleanse changes are reverted, Hatred will die immediately. It is a change that can be used to hold it down but it's not the way I'd go after some time of playing extensively. A cap on the DoT spread is the option that will be more in line. Again, I don't think any nerfs should happen until PT and Sorc are also looked at.

[Sabatiel]

If Cleanse changes are reverted, Hatred will die immediately. It is a change that can be used to hold it down but it's not the way I'd go after some time of playing extensively. A cap on the DoT spread is the option that will be more in line. Again, I don't think any nerfs should happen until PT and Sorc are also looked at.

 

I'm glad that not all of the smart people are dead...

[Altheran]

If Cleanse changes are reverted, Hatred will die immediately. It is a change that can be used to hold it down but it's not the way I'd go after some time of playing extensively. A cap on the DoT spread is the option that will be more in line. Again, I don't think any nerfs should happen until PT and Sorc are also looked at.

 

If they are just "reverted", yes they'd die.

 

But I think a middle ground is possible, that we could make cleansing a part of the game without jeopardizing the spec instantly.

 

Let's say that cleanses are still said to remove non-player DoTs only, but healing specced guy receive a talent that says otherwise...

And yet the some DoT spec also receive one talent that may say that *this DoT* is not cleanse-able at all, or that *this* happens when *that DoT* is removed.

 

You see what I mean ?

 

It's like an authorization level, where cleanses would only be able to "order" DoTs of level lower than them.

NPC DoTs are level 0, cleanses are level 1, player DoTs are level 2, healer cleanses are level 3, and ultimately some special DoTs for certain specs are level 4.

 

Cleanses being NPC only at first, ensures that DoTing is not automatically rendered useless by the sheer amount of potential cleansers.

Then the healing version ensures that cleansing remains a part of the game.

Lastly the special treatment given to some DoTs fine tunes exactly what can be cleansed or not, what kind of compensation is given if cleanse happens.

 

For exemple, Force Breach/Discharge could be the only uncleanse-able DoT of Serenity/Hatred. Assault on his side could have Incendiary Round made uncleanse-able. Virulence could have its Lingering toxin mechanism. Watchman could...

 

I think you get the picture. So, how about this kind of cleanse mechanism ? Does it seems a correct approach for you ?

[Saikochoro]

I disagree with op on hatred and deception (not completely). Madness did used to be useless. Right now it is over performing. Self healing needs toned down and all dot classes need a different protection mechanic. The dot protection should be like what lethality ops/snipers used to have and cleanse should work om dots again. Their damage doesn't need to be decreased IMO. Those changes would be enough I think.

 

Deception can still hit very hard. But their burst has generally stayed the same with the increase in health pool. Mail still hits hard. It still hits 10-13k with duplicity procs for me. I would not call that incredibly low. Ball lightning and discharge still also hit hard. Two things would fix deception. Bring cackling blast surge bonus back up to 50%. Bring back duplicity proc on low slash/spike on separate rate limit (nerf damage on both those CCs). This would allow for double duplicity near the beginning of the fight. It's not useless they just screwed up the mechanics in 3.0. Revert it to 2.10 but scaled up to 3.0 health pools and it is perfect. Basically get rid of the attempts to make this a more sustained spec. Give the full burst back.

[Xinika]

I disagree with op on hatred and deception (not completely). Madness did used to be useless. Right now it is over performing. Self healing needs toned down and all dot classes need a different protection mechanic. The dot protection should be like what lethality ops/snipers used to have and cleanse should work om dots again. Their damage doesn't need to be decreased IMO. Those changes would be enough I think..

I thought the Self-Healing on Hatred was over the top upon reading the tooltips initially. After playing it extensively, it's quite balanced. (See: Jugg Self Sustainability)

 

If they are just "reverted", yes they'd die.

 

But I think a middle ground is possible, that we could make cleansing a part of the game without jeopardizing the spec instantly.

 

Let's say that cleanses are still said to remove non-player DoTs only, but healing specced guy receive a talent that says otherwise...

And yet the some DoT spec also receive one talent that may say that *this DoT* is not cleanse-able at all, or that *this* happens when *that DoT* is removed.

 

You see what I mean ?

 

It's like an authorization level, where cleanses would only be able to "order" DoTs of level lower than them.

NPC DoTs are level 0, cleanses are level 1, player DoTs are level 2, healer cleanses are level 3, and ultimately some special DoTs for certain specs are level 4.

 

Cleanses being NPC only at first, ensures that DoTing is not automatically rendered useless by the sheer amount of potential cleansers.

Then the healing version ensures that cleansing remains a part of the game.

Lastly the special treatment given to some DoTs fine tunes exactly what can be cleansed or not, what kind of compensation is given if cleanse happens.

 

For exemple, Force Breach/Discharge could be the only uncleanse-able DoT of Serenity/Hatred. Assault on his side could have Incendiary Round made uncleanse-able. Virulence could have its Lingering toxin mechanism. Watchman could...

 

I think you get the picture. So, how about this kind of cleanse mechanism ? Does it seems a correct approach for you ?

Interesting.

[Evolixe]

If they are just "reverted", yes they'd die.

 

But I think a middle ground is possible, that we could make cleansing a part of the game without jeopardizing the spec instantly.

 

Let's say that cleanses are still said to remove non-player DoTs only, but healing specced guy receive a talent that says otherwise...

And yet the some DoT spec also receive one talent that may say that *this DoT* is not cleanse-able at all, or that *this* happens when *that DoT* is removed.

 

You see what I mean ?

 

It's like an authorization level, where cleanses would only be able to "order" DoTs of level lower than them.

NPC DoTs are level 0, cleanses are level 1, player DoTs are level 2, healer cleanses are level 3, and ultimately some special DoTs for certain specs are level 4.

 

Cleanses being NPC only at first, ensures that DoTing is not automatically rendered useless by the sheer amount of potential cleansers.

Then the healing version ensures that cleansing remains a part of the game.

Lastly the special treatment given to some DoTs fine tunes exactly what can be cleansed or not, what kind of compensation is given if cleanse happens.

 

For exemple, Force Breach/Discharge could be the only uncleanse-able DoT of Serenity/Hatred. Assault on his side could have Incendiary Round made uncleanse-able. Virulence could have its Lingering toxin mechanism. Watchman could...

 

I think you get the picture. So, how about this kind of cleanse mechanism ? Does it seems a correct approach for you ?

 

I quite like your line of thought. It would need some polishing but this is definitely something to work with.

[hallucigenocide]

the cleansing idea seems quite allright.. as long as not any healer can cleanse any dot

it's been quite refreshing seeing different healers and not just scoundrels/operatives lately

[Mega_Fallos]

nice trolling thread

 

/try to play sentinel and talk after it

Edited January 15, 2015 by Mega_Fallos