regarding punishment for exploit

[LadyVix]

How about a strict and decisive hotfix next time instead of a strict and decisive punishment? The clear message Bioware should be sending should be "We are going to address exploits in a timely fashion." instead of "We're permabanning everyone who took advantage of our negligence."

 

Will you hang the kid who steals cookies from the jar or will you tell the parent not to leave it open on the counter for so gosh darn long next time?

 

Are you saying that they didn't know that what they were doing was wrong? They knew that they were exploiting. Regardless of how long it took Bioware to address the issue, Biowares response time doesn't mean that you can do it until told not to. Do you need to be told not to do something you know is obviously wrong?

 

As far as the cookie thief, the parents set the rules. If the kid sneaks in and steals one when he knows he's not supposed to, it's the parent's responsibility to enforce the rules and prevent it from happening again. If he steals my cookie, I'd slap him upside his head and teach him the way we learned years ago.

 

Before you break the rules, just ask yourself one simple question: What are you prepared to sacrifice?

Edited January 9, 2015 by LadyVix

[KingFink]

The Cookie Thief

 

Starring Geoffery Rush, Darth Malgus, and your pissed off parents!

 

In a world where you are only allowed to have a cookie after dinner, but you want one now...

 

You're going to break the rules.

 

But...,

 

Before you break the rules, just ask yourself one simple question: What are you prepared to sacrifice?

[Sinapus]

Should we get a shiny medal each time we choose not to commit a crime? IMO, normal behavior shouldn't be rewarded, well, because it's normal. Those who "chose" not to take advantage of the exploit, didn't do anything special. In fact, I'd guess that the overwhelming majority of the players (low-level F2P) didn't even know about it much less even care. Your "reward" for not choosing to participate in sinful behavior should be a warm feeling of integrity and dignity.

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WantsAPrizeForBasicDecency

 

;-)

[LadyVix]

What we have here, is the case of a common "RaiderH8ER"

 

Now, let me fix your quote so that it's more correct to the current situation:

 

You can deny this all you want, but it is how it is.

 

I participate in Ops too, so it's not an issue of hating raiders. It's an issue of disliking dishonest players.

[KingFink]

You're free to add me to your ignore list if you do not like my point of view. Instead of just trolling for a rise.

 

Don't remember referencing a point of view...

 

The fact I referenced was that Bioware cannot afford to lose subscription money from such a massive portion of their player base. A player that pays you is worth more than a player that respects you. Bioware will certainly take action to the extent they see is fit, but they won't risk large sums of subscription revenue in the process.

 

Sorry about the other bits (not really) but hey, calling it like I saw it.

[KingFink]

I participate in Ops too, so it's not an issue of hating raiders. It's an issue of disliking dishonest players.

 

I was referring specifically to the person who I quoted on that one. I felt the way that particular person worded their post that they personally had something against Raiders.

[MokiDono]

I can also believe that these bugs are made deliberately by the devs. Just think about it... people stocking up on mats gonna make the craftable gear like implants, relics, enhancements etc. go for nothing on GTN, which means people gonna have a lot of credits to spare. And what are people doing if they have credits to spare? They buy Cartel Market stuff from GTN... which creates demand, which makes the people who sell hypercrates, packs, items on GTN really happy, and also... they buy even more Cartel Market stuff with Cartel Coins, so they can make even more credits. All these exploits doing is fueling the Cartel Market sales so people would spend even more real life currency on the game.

 

#illuminati #biowarewantsyourmoney #wakeupneo

[KingFink]

I have a team of Slovakian scholars and several mystics from deep in the jungles of Guyana on my research team here, and we've uncovered something shocking.

 

This exploit was actually an elaborate set up, thousands of years in the making. This exploit was a beacon to the world, it's very existence a road map to some of histories greatest treasure. I submit to you, that back tracking this exploit all the way to its roots in ancient Europe, I have discovered the true location of The Holy Grail.

[Drehzen]

I have a team of Slovakian scholars and several mystics from deep in the jungles of Guyana on my research team here, and we've uncovered something shocking.

 

This exploit was actually an elaborate set up, thousands of years in the making. This exploit was a beacon to the world, it's very existence a road map to some of histories greatest treasure. I submit to you, that back tracking this exploit all the way to its roots in ancient Europe, I have discovered the true location of The Holy Grail.

 

This all checks out.

[Andrellma]

I have a team of Slovakian scholars and several mystics from deep in the jungles of Guyana on my research team here, and we've uncovered something shocking.

 

This exploit was actually an elaborate set up, thousands of years in the making. This exploit was a beacon to the world, it's very existence a road map to some of histories greatest treasure. I submit to you, that back tracking this exploit all the way to its roots in ancient Europe, I have discovered the true location of The Holy Grail.

 

The Holy Grail is buried beneath the roots of the Glorious Meat Tree. It must not be disturbed, lest the Meat Tree's harvest suffer.

 

All Glory to Meat Tree.

[euroDSMtuner]

If they knew about it in the Beta testing phase, and allowed it to slip through the cracks, then they only have themselves to blame for not being proactive enough for making sure that the bug was fixed BEFORE they released 3.0; I mean hell, the ability delay, the horrendous lag, and the holes in SoR have been entirely unacceptable.

 

We have a deadline to meet, so lets just save time by not putting ALL the bolts in the engine and skip the gaskets entirely, and if they find out when their engine fails what the cause of the failure was; being that we skimped on parts in order to meet the deadline, then their gonna be not only up a river of excrement without a paddle, but will be punished for running the engine. After all, its not our fault we half-assed the assembly, its YOUR fault for running the engine. Oh, and even though we knew about this in the early stages of assembly after our testers reported the consequences of what could happen, we decided to not only ignore it, but to then publicly announce that we were aware of it, weeks after having received reports of over 10k engine failures, and no one could help fix the issue because there was no one competent enough to do something about it either BEFORE or AFTER the release.

 

IMO, ban hammer spamming isn't the way to go about punishing those who in fact did discover this well known flaw that BW knew about in the BETA, THIS TIME. Since a VERY LARGE number of players did this, either

 

A) Lock and charge you to unlock your account (holding accounts for ransom) ~$20

OR

B) Suspend the account for 30 days...allowing the rest of those who didn't do this to catch up to those who did.

 

Since they can't permaban such an enormous chunk of their customers, this will be a harsh enough warning to get the message across that the next time an exploit arises, participating in it will result in a permaban, no questions asked. Since they knew about the bug, but did nothing about it in a timely manner, this would seem to be fair.

 

Ravager-gate is now the most well known and widespread exploit in the history of SWTOR, using this as a prime example of what BW CAN do in the future to players that find holes in the game possibly less or more serious than this one was, being their mistake in the first place for not doing jack about it before the release.

 

Realistically, emails and PM's will be sent informing that the player in question has violated the TOS and will be given X amount of what they call "Infraction Points" on their account, as has happened in the past with previous exploits and whatnot.

Edited January 9, 2015 by euroDSMtuner

[JattaGin]

Since this thread is so huge already, let me add something as well (peer pressure).

 

Dear Bioware, I, an honest player who has never cheated in this game nor used any exploits (even though I knew some of them), expect that you take serious action in this matter. What action you take is not so important. But you have to show all players that you do SOMETHING for real. You may punish the exploiters or reward the honest players.

 

If no serious actions will be taken, I personally feel like being kicked in the butt for being honest. This should not be the message you send out. I am not self-righteous here and I understand that finding the right solution is not easy in this matter, but keep in mind what message will be sent out if you do nothing, something lousy (like 3 days bans) or the wrong thing.

[ZETA_SCORPII]

Since this thread is so huge already, let me add something as well (peer pressure).

 

Dear Bioware, I, an honest player who has never cheated in this game nor used any exploits (even though I knew some of them), expect that you take serious action in this matter. What action you take is not so important. But you have to show all players that you do SOMETHING for real. You may punish the exploiters or reward the honest players.

 

If no serious actions will be taken, I personally feel like being kicked in the butt for being honest. This should not be the message you send out. I am not self-righteous here and I understand that finding the right solution is not easy in this matter, but keep in mind what message will be sent out if you do nothing, something lousy (like 3 days bans) or the wrong thing.

 

 

So you want BioWare to reward you for not taking advantage of the exploit? Sounds like an exploit to me.

[grombrinda]

I would bet it is not a substantial portion of the overall playerbase.

 

Note, the point I made is just to stand against the notion that "ban the exploiters, the game dies" or "raiding dies". The latter is perhaps barely plausible, but the former is just not being realistic.

 

This game is dominated by casual players that have likely never stepped foot in an Operation, never mind an end game flashpoint. And I think this is the substantial majority of the playerbase at present.

 

I would note, however, that based on the studies I have seen hardcore players, though a minority in most games are the most loyal players. Casuals dominate the playerbase in most MMOs, but they are very transient in nature.

 

hehe no sir...anyone that is lvl 60 can do this..no need to be an hardcore raider...

 

Which boggles my mind...Why don't they just turn the op off until the fix?? Everyday they leave it on more and more people are doing it . As more and more of the general population discovers it.

[grombrinda]

Players have NO SAY in what Bioware does, when they do it, or how they do it. SWTOR is not a democracy, not even a representative democracy. Players do have a courtyard (called the forum) to pontificate and opine, but it is devoid of any authority over the game or it's players.

 

Players either accept it or they don't. They can choose to play or not play. That's it.

 

And we both know that most threats by players are hollow in nature. They either never leave, or they come back... because they like the game as a whole.

 

I think he meant that people will voice their thought with their money. ^^

[JouerTue]

raiders are a small % of the playerbase,

an even smaller number knew about it,

an even smaller number did it,

and the majority of them did it because of the spreading and raising of whining threads here on the forum, which themselves violated the terms of service. it's their fault if the thing grew so big and there will be any consequences.

 

and look at this thread lol, it has the double of views than the official devs response on the matter

Edited January 9, 2015 by JouerTue

[Sashandra]

Since people are calling for this group of exploiters to be banned or hugely punished I am going to call for a few more groups of exploiters to be linked in:

 

*all those in every PVP season who exploited, be it win trading or any other method, to have all gear, comms, valor, titles, achievements and credits stripped

*all those who exploited Nefra to have all gear, comms, titles, credits and achievements stripped

*all those that have exploited any mechanic in any ops to have all gear, titles, credits, achievements and comms stripped

*all those that used geared ships to gain a better bolster exploit to have all ship gear, comms, gear, titles, valor, credits and achievements to be stripped

*any guild that knew of exploits on the closed invite only PTS and then used those exploits on live to have all personal gear, titles, credits, achievements and comms stripped as well as the removal of all guild bank tabs, guild bank contents, credits and removal of guild capital ship

*any dataminers to be banned

*anyone who exploited any flashpoint mechanic in any way to not run the content on the flashpoint (for example platforming terrain to avoid fights or locked doors, or pulling bosses away from fight area to prevent bosses spawning adds) to have all gear, comms and credits removed

*the original Ilum pvp exploiters to have all gear, comms, credits, achievements and valor stripped

*all those that exploited line of sight in order to low man fight Toborro's Courtyard to have all comms, gear and credits stripped

*all those that did the Gree heroic exploit to have all levels, gear, credits to be stripped

 

I think I covered maybe 0.5% to 1% of the assorted exploits since the game first launched. If the ban hammer swings now, then how can the devs not look back at the long history of the game? If they look at every single exploit in the game since launch I am willing to be that more than 80% of the players have done one or more exploits at some point. Some might of been unknowingly, some you might of thought you were simply doing an interesting way of low manning. But, an exploit is an exploit according the mob, so what is good for now is good for all the previous ones.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Sashandra

[grombrinda]

I can't say what they should do. Bottom line is this was not the original cause or fault of any of the players yet I see players blaming players. The players saw an opening and simply stepped through a door. You can live in your own micro world and say people should not have done this and yes that is 100% true, but that is not 100% of the story or the fault of the players. Blame is proportionally distributed between the makers of SWToR and the players by a ratio of 80/20. What did you expect to happen in this situation? Exactly what did happen. You may as well blame a rock halfway down the mountain for starting a landslide. Players need to stick together and persuade the makers of SWToR to do a better job and not throw other players under the bus. You will see a better game in the end and that is what we all want isn't it?

 

Awesome..this person gets it.

 

Bio/EA...please lock out the ops until a fix is made...please.

[xGhoztx]

This is not a game, it's a revenue generating unit.

 

Say they take action that leads to x% in lost revenue. If they won't make up the loss with new subscribers or rate increases, it would be a bad business move. They will make a business decision, and no amount of righteous forum rage will impact it.

 

I get what your saying but tell that to all the Wildstar Exploiters this past November,as some people know Wildstar doesn't have nearly as much of subs like Swtor does, but they pass out the ban flag like there's no tomorrow and don't even flinch.Like i think a 1/3 of the population was kicked in November alone. (numbers might be off).

 

As a business sense don't publishers agree to the "Terms of Service" clause? If so your at the mercy of Maker,um i mean Bioware, well the peeps that exploited are.(DA:I rocks!)

But why all the finger pointing? "Its all Bioware's fault" Actually i think its the community fault,well some of you at least, posting this exploit in General chat,twitter ect. Its like you dared to see what Bioware will do next or how will they respond.

 

To all exploiters hey you messed up got caught now its time to face the music, if nothing happens congratulations!! but man the flood gates are open terms of service out the window and the message of the day is find more exploits and you will be rewarded.

 

Reminder: "Super Secret squirrels don't use Twitter":cool:

[Max_Killjoy]

Eh...Theorycrafting maybe?

 

My poorly worded point stands though.

 

Why the **** is this thread even a thing?

 

Because there are people who have turned their nerdrage up to 11+ and want to see "the exploiters" who "ruined" the game perma-banned, or stripped of all gear (not just proven ill-gotten gear, but all gear), or lose levels, or face other ridiculously draconian punishments, for "justice".

 

Because some of them would further be absolutely fine with people who are absolutely innocent and have no idea how this exploit even works being caught up in the punishments, and hey, they can just appeal to CS/GMs if they're innocent.

 

Because some of them further would rather be fine with the outcome if the results of the punishments lead to the implosion and end of SWTOR.

 

Oh, and because if you're not on board with all this, then according to many of them, you're "obviously" one of the exploiters trying to deflect your "due punishment".

[Max_Killjoy]

You've never run a very large business before, have you?

 

You don't need peoples respect. You just need their money.

 

And yet many large businesses seem to feel that keeping a certain level of respect within their customer base and the general public is critically important.... huh.

[LordArtemis]

I am guilty of avoiding certain mobs in EoT on Black Hole....there is one point where you are able to run by a set of mobs if you hug the wall. I suppose one could say that is not how the design was intended.

 

Funny thing is everyone does it, at least everyone that I have ever run the EoT with.

[Max_Killjoy]

I am guilty of avoiding certain mobs in EoT on Black Hole....there is one point where you are able to run by a set of mobs if you hug the wall. I suppose one could say that is not how the design was intended.

 

Funny thing is everyone does it, at least everyone that I have ever run the EoT with.

 

There are at least two sets of mobs that you can avoid fighting if you just go around them.

 

Does anyone really, honestly believe that going around groups of mobs is an "exploit"?

[PifferPuff]

There are at least two sets of mobs that you can avoid fighting if you just go around them.

 

Does anyone really, honestly believe that going around groups of mobs is an "exploit"?

Sashandra apparently does. LOL

 

 

In other news, this thread is getting waaaayy too big. And now the weather....

Edited January 9, 2015 by PifferPuff

[CommanderKeeva]

I am guilty of avoiding certain mobs in EoT on Black Hole....there is one point where you are able to run by a set of mobs if you hug the wall. I suppose one could say that is not how the design was intended.

 

Funny thing is everyone does it, at least everyone that I have ever run the EoT with.

 

This outrage can not be allowed to happen! Strip the offending characters of all gear, take away all money, knock them all back to level 1, take away all mounts, pets, achievements, perks and codex entries, ban the account, the I.P. address, uninstall the game, throw away the authenticator, destroy the disks and blow up the computer.

 

Righteous forum justice has been served!

Edited January 9, 2015 by CommanderKeeva