regarding punishment for exploit

[wainot-keel]

You wand them to permaban Zorz? Gosh you're retarded Jerba.

 

Do Zorz members have a different ToS or is it the same everybody else has ?

[Max_Killjoy]

Oh no a bunch of players ( many who deserved the ban ) decided to talk negatively about us on reddit whilst the majority of the law abiding community carried on their merry way and continued to give us money. Whatever shall we do? How about we never ban anyone ever again as we don't want to anger the might reddit beast who might "ream" us again. Lol wake up.

 

Notice that word "many" you used... does that mean you're OK with people who didn't deserve the ban getting nailed with the laughably disproportionate punishments that some are calling for? And no big deal if those wrongly-affected players decide to call out EA publicly, and cancel their subs?

 

I direct you to Justice Blackstone's formulation "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer",

Edited January 9, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[TUXs]

Wouldn't it be poetic if some of our proposers of draconian measures were in fact caught by a false positive and actioned exactly as they petitioned? Ooopsie.

Absolutely. As the man you quoted said, it's not like this was THAT big of an issue.

 

At first, I thought it was...until I began completing the Ops normally and then running the old Ops for the good comms to better the crap drops I got in the new ones - which seems ironic since I get better comms by beating easier content...think that's an exploit too? At worst, this is a boost to getting gear, not some economy crashing server stopping issue (not that it shouldn't have been fixed sooner, it most clearly should have been)!

 

Gear doesn't beat the instance...beating the mechanics does. The players who will beat them, would have done so in 186 gear once they got it all down. Those who can't, still won't, even in BiS 198 gear.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Notice that word "many" you used... does that mean you're OK with people who didn't deserve the ban getting nailed with the laughably disproportionate punishments that some are calling for? And no big deal if those wrongly-affected players decide to call out EA publicly, and cancel their subs?

 

Or maybe if people read my posts properly or don't solely choose on what to quote when they quote me they will see how I've addressed the issue in this case with those that could have been caught unintentionally and are innocent being a very small proportion of the game ( glad to retract this if I can be proven wrong and shown the 1000's or 100's or heck even the 10's that have completed the content legitimately and without the aid of the gear they would have got illegally to start with ) and that they could easily then contact CS for a resolution which wouldn't flood CS with requests as some people seem to think ( unless it's all coming from those who are guilty to begin with but why would they all bother if they know they are guilty ).

 

I swear some people in this thread just want any resolution to be more difficult than it could be and BW to just leave things as they are ... kinda almost obvious who some guilty parties are.

 

"Hey I didn't exploit this BW at all honest but please don't punish anyone and do anything and just leave it all as it is ok? I don't want you have to do too much work ok?"

 

Almost believable.

[Infernixx]

Absolutely. As the man you quoted said, it's not like this was THAT big of an issue.

 

At first, I thought it was...until I began completing the Ops normally and then running the old Ops for the good comms to better the crap drops I got in the new ones - which seems ironic since I get better comms by beating easier content...think that's an exploit too? At worst, this is a boost to getting gear, not some economy crashing server stopping issue (not that it shouldn't have been fixed sooner, it most clearly should have been)!

 

Gear doesn't beat the instance...beating the mechanics does. The players who will beat them, would have done so in 186 gear once they got it all down. Those who can't, still won't, even in BiS 198 gear.

 

Holy crap, Hell just froze over. I'm in complete agreement with you.

[Kirazy]

Almost believable.

 

I'm curious if you know what the exploit is, and what it entails. And if you do, could you share why you think your punishments, as you have postulated and hope that BioWare will use, are fitting?

[dPuff]

So what's this "exploit" everyone has been talking much? I haven't been playing at all due to the ability/delay lag crap, have they fixed that yet? 2 questions.

[levizle]

I think the OP'S idea would be great. That way there would still be an upside to not exploiting, and no one would be too mad about it.

[Kirazy]

So what's this "exploit" everyone has been talking much? I haven't been playing at all due to the ability/delay lag crap, have they fixed that yet? 2 questions.

 

Exploit involving easily obtain operation loot. And no, it hasn't.

[TUXs]

Holy crap, Hell just froze over. I'm in complete agreement with you.

Huh...well then one of us must be wrong...

[MeNaCe-NZ]

At first, I thought it was...until I began completing the Ops normally and then running the old Ops for the good comms to better the crap drops I got in the new ones - which seems ironic since I get better comms by beating easier content...think that's an exploit too? At worst, this is a boost to getting gear, not some economy crashing server stopping issue (not that it shouldn't have been fixed sooner, it most clearly should have been)!

 

Gear doesn't beat the instance...beating the mechanics does. The players who will beat them, would have done so in 186 gear once they got it all down. Those who can't, still won't, even in BiS 198 gear.

 

I think you may be referring to storymode, which whilst can still be exploited, isn't really the focus of most people's disdain with the cheaters. Otherwise I fail to see what you comparison the comms gear has to the HM gear ...

 

Also from what I've read the mats drop is another issue but one that probably can't be fixed and this has seemingly had quite an impact on the market etc.

 

Whilst gear isn't the be all and end all of beating an op and the mechanics certainly are a major factor people have eluded to the gear issue many times in this thread with issues like getting preference of getting into pugs or even their guilds run now if they chose to not take gear whilst the rest of their guildies did. Noting many guildies are equally capable of doing mechanics I think raid leaders will take the peopel with the better gear every time ( just as many skip a lot of the crappier classes if they can help it ).

 

Besides all that if it isn't that big a problem or that wide spread then removing everything the cheaters gained shouldn't be that much of an issue right?

[Kirazy]

Besides all that if it isn't that big a problem or that wide spread then removing everything the cheaters gained shouldn't be that much of an issue right?

 

Except that's not what you advocate. You advocate the complete removal of everything the player has gained, through normal progression and playing of the game as well as any exploited gains.

 

If it isn't a big problem, and I contend that it is not, leaving it as is and sanctioning the account would serve be sufficient.

 

The extra supply of mats that would not otherwise be present has only served to reduce both the prices of these materials, and of the crafted materials. So crafters don't make nearly as much as they would have otherwise.

 

The excess supply of Operation Tokens has increased the supply of gear to be RE'd. So that process has been accelerated as well. Ditto for people gearing up.

 

Essentially? It has only accelerated normal game processes. Everything that has happened, would have happened normally over time. And honestly, not very much time.

[TUXs]

Besides all that if it isn't that big a problem or that wide spread then removing everything the cheaters gained shouldn't be that much of an issue right?

I believe it's extremely widespread - it was being spammed all freaking weekend on my PvP server. I think separating those who got their gear legitimately from those who didn't, is a HUGE issue...they can't even stop freaking credit spammers who broadcast the EXACT SAME THING day after day after day after day...my belief that they can honestly tell who got their gear the right way vs cheating is nonexistent.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I'm curious if you know what the exploit is, and what it entails. And if you do, could you share why you think your punishments, as you have postulated and hope that BioWare will use, are fitting?

 

I have a fair idea of what it is and of course aren't going to put down what I think it here, that would just be stupid and against ToS.

 

The only part I wasn't sure of if it's only doable on 1 boss.

 

As to why I think it's fitting ... it removes what people gained illegally ( though does nothing for any mats they have gained/sold etc. since ) and the punishing factor is it remove any shells they put the illegal items into also on the chance they have run it via alt toons and sent the mods back to their main via legacy with ( not an exploit ). If they only had say the 1 piece and used the shell it came in it could be argued just removing that is no punishment at all.

 

The shell deletion is just an easy means for BW to mass delete the ill gotten gains and offer up a fitting punishment for using the items in the first place.

 

I'm all for restoring the balance as easy as possible - be it boosting those that didn't cheat or nerfing those back that did. If people get punished in the process then cool, they deserved it imo.

 

As to how they detect these players etc. we've been over this before and we could go in circles all day on this but neither you nor I have the knowledge on how BW can or cannot do this or how easy it is or isn't so that would be a discussion purely almost based in fantasy. I would just think it's not going to be as hard as one would think it would be.

 

The truly disappointing result is if all cheaters keep their ill gotten gains and nothing happens to balance things again. If that happens then it happens and I'll see how the game goes as a result and if I get very little operation play as a result then oh well, I'll decide what to do then. I'm not about to threaten BW ( who honestly don't care about us the small minority in here ) as some people seem set on doing.

[Aehgo]

Nothing will happen.

Bioware said that they would punish ranked win traders, so far no punishment in 3 seasons for known wintraders.

They cant afford to ban/punish the amount of people that have done this exploit,same situation with win traders in ranked.

If Bioware took it that serious,they would patch it ASAP instead of waiting 6/7 days?

its a joke

Edited January 9, 2015 by Aehgo

[mbfhl]

Do Zorz members have a different ToS or is it the same everybody else has ?

 

Terms of Service has nothing to do with this. The fact of the matter is Zorz sold the lockout, YES spread it to the entire server, and Tait and Eric are chummy with Zorz and Milas and will never do anything against them.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Except that's not what you advocate. You advocate the complete removal of everything the player has gained, through normal progression and playing of the game as well as any exploited gains.

 

Essentially? It has only accelerated normal game processes. Everything that has happened, would have happened normally over time. And honestly, not very much time.

 

Didn't someone quiz me on that earlier and I clarified that I meant ANYTHING that could have be ill-gotten from the exploit in question? You seem to know a lot more about this than me and seem dead set on protecting people's gear for some reason ( why you want to protect ANYTHING a cheater has gained is beyond me but I am pretty sure I know exactly why you are taking this stance and it's not because "SWTOR will die" ) but perhaps you can clarify.

 

If it was ideally possible to get ANY 198 gear from this exploit then yes if you are proven cheater you should lose ALL 198 Token/drop gear ( I believe comm gear is different and can readily be differentiated against ) to be on the safe side it is all removed if they can't identify exactly which was and was not ill-gotten.

 

Does that sound unfair? Easily solution. DON'T CHEAT! Heh.

 

Anyway I believe the above is not the case and it's only certain gear that can be obtained but that doesn't stop people getting multiple copies of said gear and spreading it into other slots etc.

 

If it isn't a big problem, and I contend that it is not, leaving it as is and sanctioning the account would serve be sufficient.

 

I think you may fail to understand how people could propogate this exploit further and think it might only effect 1 item if you think that. Full BiS mods/enhancements are quite a boost imo.

 

Essentially? It has only accelerated normal game processes. Everything that has happened, would have happened normally over time. And honestly, not very much time

 

Except the difference between me and ... someone who has not cheated, is that I have to buy or earn my gear legitimately the long way which includes weekly lockouts etc. ( unless your implying the people who ran 10+ level 60's through the exploit were geared and skilled enough to have done so anyway considering I doubt 20 people on Harbinger would have completed it by now in non exploited gear as it is ). I'm not about to sit back and do the math and take into consideration the odds of winning rolls etc. but it's suffice to say you are delusional if you think this is no big deal and people should keep the gear and there's really imo only one type of person who would think that but I'll leave that point of view in my head for now.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

..they can't even stop freaking credit spammers who broadcast the EXACT SAME THING day after day after day after day...my belief that they can honestly tell who got their gear the right way vs cheating is nonexistent.

 

Oh they could easily stop them no worries ... if they wanted to. There is a school of thought it's actually profitable towards BW in some ways. A simple solution is chat moderation staff whose only chat moderation allowance is to ban those players from chat and the review from full staff to see if it warrants a deletion of account or chat unban if it wasn't warranted.

 

For whatever reason they choose not to take this course of action as simple as it would be.

[Kirazy]

Didn't someone quiz me on that earlier and I clarified that I meant ANYTHING that could have be ill-gotten from the exploit in question? You seem to know a lot more about this than me and seem dead set on protecting people's gear for some reason ( why you want to protect ANYTHING a cheater has gained is beyond me but I am pretty sure I know exactly why you are taking this stance and it's not because "SWTOR will die" ) but perhaps you can clarify.

 

If it was ideally possible to get ANY 198 gear from this exploit then yes if you are proven cheater you should lose ALL 198 Token/drop gear ( I believe comm gear is different and can readily be differentiated against ) to be on the safe side it is all removed if they can't identify exactly which was and was not ill-gotten.

 

Does that sound unfair? Easily solution. DON'T CHEAT! Heh.

 

Anyway I believe the above is not the case and it's only certain gear that can be obtained but that doesn't stop people getting multiple copies of said gear and spreading it into other slots etc.

 

 

 

I think you may fail to understand how people could propogate this exploit further and think it might only effect 1 item if you think that. Full BiS mods/enhancements are quite a boost imo.

 

 

 

Except the difference between me and ... someone who has not cheated, is that I have to buy or earn my gear legitimately the long way which includes weekly lockouts etc. ( unless your implying the people who ran 10+ level 60's through the exploit were geared and skilled enough to have done so anyway considering I doubt 20 people on Harbinger would have completed it by now in non exploited gear as it is ). I'm not about to sit back and do the math and take into consideration the odds of winning rolls etc. but it's suffice to say you are delusional if you think this is no big deal and people should keep the gear and there's really imo only one type of person who would think that but I'll leave that point of view in my head for now.

 

Allow me to expand upon my perspective.

 

I think you are a beyond casual raider. As such you feel slighted by this exploit, but honestly I think you'd be lagging way behind active raiders anyways.

 

It's already easy to max out Ultimate commendations on a weekly basis, across multiple characters, and pool those comms via legacy gear. The exploit is one boss worth of loot in one operation. It's extremely contained. In fact, you are in some ways at a significant disadvantage, as using the exploit completely locks you out of the operation, and denies you access to the other four bosses worth of loot. If you want the gear for the rest of your set, you have to go about it the normal way like everyone else.

 

I take issue with arguments that say that people who do not participate in the exploit are going to be discriminated against. Maybe in a select few pug groups, but if that's the case just make your own and have it populated by other players. It's how I got gear on many of my characters over the last year. I organized the pug run as a character that wasn't up to par, and they brought the experience. Most people don't care about your gear as long as you can do the mechanics.

 

Mechanics are so, so much more important than gear. Gear may take the edge off certain DPS/Heal checks, but you can fix gear. You can't fix stupid.

 

Perhaps you'd like to tell me why you think it's a big deal that another player has better gear than you do? Are you a hardcore raider? If you ARE, you'd already BE geared, regardless of exploit.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Kirazy

[KTap]

Terms of Service has nothing to do with this. The fact of the matter is Zorz sold the lockout, YES spread it to the entire server, and Tait and Eric are chummy with Zorz and Milas and will never do anything against them.

 

Uh, that is not what happened.

 

Try again.

 

We're not releasing kill videos until multiple guilds have downed them, why on earth would we give other guilds free gear to trivialize the content in the first 2 weeks of new ops? We want them to try it for themselves.

 

I understand why it looks this way to you, but it's 100% false.

Edited January 9, 2015 by KTap

[Pietrastor]

Here's my biggest complaint about Bioware's approach to this - they're threathening players not to use the now-wiedely-known exploit because of conquequences. Some people will take the advice and not use it. Meanwhile, others will get rich selling mats or 192 hilts etc. And in the end a 3-day ban, or some other small penalty (won't be anything big as they can't afford banning half the opsing playerbase) will still be "worth" it for millions of credits or free gear gained by exploiting.

 

They should've done "free for all till Tuesday" route instead. Because it WILL be unfair to people who didn't use the exploit to miss on "free" hilts/mods/millions of credits.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Pietrastor

[Theeko]

Well from the looks of it, smaller MMos than Swtor perma banned people for participating in lower end exploits than this one, someone got banned just for using a program to bypass the chat log on WoT. If this was in there ToS, what will happen with Swtors?

 

IE: WoT - 2.02. Typing in such a way to bypass the censor filter is prohibited.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Theeko

[Pagy]

Certainly possible, I really dont.

you're treading very close to talking too specifically about this. you're misunderstanding how the exploit works. that's as much as I'll say.

[Projawa]

Terms of Service has nothing to do with this. The fact of the matter is Zorz sold the lockout, YES spread it to the entire server, and Tait and Eric are chummy with Zorz and Milas and will never do anything against them.

 

Don't blame the whole guild for the actions of one or a few. Others in TE and 4/5 took it upon themselves to spread the HM lockout not just on Harbinger but other servers by transferring. There's plenty of blame to go around.

[Mowermanx]

Don't blame the whole guild for the actions of one or a few. Others in TE and 4/5 took it upon themselves to spread the HM lockout not just on Harbinger but other servers by transferring. There's plenty of blame to go around.

 

Indeed, so many in these threads that have no idea what is happening.

To say this is wide spread is probably the understatement of the year, and to say that only raiders are taking advantage is just straight out ridiculous.