regarding punishment for exploit

[TUXs]

* sad face *

On a more serious note, I had forgotten about it...

 

Seriously, fourteen months? I can only hope we never get to experience that again.

Because I'm a known Biodrone and defender of the Devs, I will say that they acknowledged that it was too long between Ops and hoped not to do that again...I hope they adhere to that goal.

 

And, I really didn't mean to exaggerate, I truly believed it was 18...14 is just as bad, but it's not 18

[Ocho-Quatro]

Bioware has a conundrum on their hands.....

 

Problem #1 - They did not react in ANY fashion to the exploit, whether by disabling the operation when the exploit surfaced until they could fix it, or by simply acknowledging that they knew it existed and would get it fixed asap and warned of punitive action ahead of time.

 

Problem #2 - Because of problem #1, the exploit has been allowed to remain on the live servers, with NO response from the developers/CM team for a long time. This has caused the reach of the exploit to make it to a large population of the playerbase.

 

Problem #3 - Because of problem #2, most of the playerbase either KNOWS about the exploit, or has done it themselves. This has caused a polarization of the playerbase, with two very different opinions:

 

Opinion 1- The game lets me do it, so I am going to use the loot pinata.

Opinion 2- You're using something obviously not working as intended, so you should be punished for what you're doing.

 

Problem #4 - Because of problems #1 & #3, Bioware has been "forced" into a position of having to REACT instead of being able to be PROACTIVE.

 

Problem #5 - Because of problem #4, Bioware has to now scramble with a way to both fix the exploit so it doesn't keep happening, AND find a way to appease the population of the playerbase who hold Opinion 2 by "punishing" the people who exploited, while at the same time, not enacting a "punishment" that is so harsh that they lose the people who hold Opinion 1 in the process. It's a rough spot they put themselves in, as they are not going to make anyone "happy" without losing paying customers, which isn't something Bioware wants to do.

 

I don't have any sympathy for Bioware with the position they've put themselves in, for the sole purpose that you can trace everything back to PROBLEM #1.

 

The Story Mode exploit in MY mind, is not as a big of a deal. It's not top-end gear, and clearing the operation is something that most of the raiders in the game are capable of doing. So it's not "cheesing" or "exploiting" content you can't clear.... It's shortening the gear grind. Still questionable if you ask me, but not so "devious"....

 

The Hard Mode exploit is a little more interesting.... Because, there are SO FEW people that have cleared the content to even have access to the lockout. Also, someone (or someones) have transferred that lockout across servers and there are many instances of it being sold. It's for top-tier gear, that 99% of the game's population isn't capable of clearing right now.... Who is to blame for that? Well.... there's only so many people who have cleared the content legitimately, so that wouldn't be hard to figure out.

 

All that said.... It still comes back to the simple statement that: All of this could have been avoided, if Bioware had addressed the issue early on, instead of pretending like it didn't exist. And fresh on the heels of being told that the "Early Access" that we all paid actual real-world money for, they viewed as "Pay-to-Beta" and released a buggy, partially finished product to us and called it "done" and that we got what we paid for.

 

I'm still a SWTOR fanboy... But... this whole situation that they let go on for far too long... No matter what they do, it's going to end badly.

[TUXs]

Is this exploit that widespread or are the same people just doing it over and over again? I haven't, and the few folks I know in-game well enough to trust haven't. I have seen people throw around percentages as high as 70%, but I question the idea that most players have exploited. Obviously I have no proof either way.

Yes, it's very wide spread. Over the weekend players flat out asked in Fleet and Rishi chat ALL day long. The 70% is obviously way high, but I believe that in the "raiding" community, it probably approaches that number with ease.

[Jerba]

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how the game experience of the non-exploiters was affected by this exploit. Asked in two separate threads now, and still only crickets...

Anyone questioning the seriousness of the exploit does not know what it is about. Without going into details, you just need to press a single button and *bam* immediately get the loot for it without doing a single thing. No previous exploit was this simple, you usually had to invest a few minutes and had to have a little skill to use the exploit.

 

Why I think it is unfair to not ban players for it:

• By selling the mats, you could easily make 30+ million credits, maybe even 100 million if you find the right buyers who were not aware of the exploit. Of course, now that many players are doing it, prices have dropped significantly.
  
• Exploiters will have a full set of BiS gear without having done the content for it. The 192/198 comms gear you get at the vendors is not nearly comparable to that, it has way too much endurance. This type of gear can only be gotten by killing the operations bosses. The top progression guilds will need around 1-2 months to get this gear legitimately, more semi-progress guilds will need 6 months and anyone not in a progression guild will never get this gear until the content has been trivialized.
  

So yes, this definitely asks for hard action being taken on exploiters, or at least compensation for those who did not exploit.

 

Bioware has a conundrum on their hands.....

 

[...]

Perfect summary of the problem!

Edited January 8, 2015 by Jerba

[HiltoftheDragon]

Bioware has a conundrum on their hands.....

 

Problem #1 - They did not react in ANY fashion to the exploit, whether by disabling the operation when the exploit surfaced until they could fix it, or by simply acknowledging that they knew it existed and would get it fixed asap and warned of punitive action ahead of time.

 

Problem #2 - Because of problem #1, the exploit has been allowed to remain on the live servers, with NO response from the developers/CM team for a long time. This has caused the reach of the exploit to make it to a large population of the playerbase.

 

Problem #3 - Because of problem #2, most of the playerbase either KNOWS about the exploit, or has done it themselves. This has caused a polarization of the playerbase, with two very different opinions:

 

Opinion 1- The game lets me do it, so I am going to use the loot pinata.

Opinion 2- You're using something obviously not working as intended, so you should be punished for what you're doing.

 

Problem #4 - Because of problems #1 & #3, Bioware has been "forced" into a position of having to REACT instead of being able to be PROACTIVE.

 

Problem #5 - Because of problem #4, Bioware has to now scramble with a way to both fix the exploit so it doesn't keep happening, AND find a way to appease the population of the playerbase who hold Opinion 2 by "punishing" the people who exploited, while at the same time, not enacting a "punishment" that is so harsh that they lose the people who hold Opinion 1 in the process. It's a rough spot they put themselves in, as they are not going to make anyone "happy" without losing paying customers, which isn't something Bioware wants to do.

 

I don't have any sympathy for Bioware with the position they've put themselves in, for the sole purpose that you can trace everything back to PROBLEM #1.

 

The Story Mode exploit in MY mind, is not as a big of a deal. It's not top-end gear, and clearing the operation is something that most of the raiders in the game are capable of doing. So it's not "cheesing" or "exploiting" content you can't clear.... It's shortening the gear grind. Still questionable if you ask me, but not so "devious"....

 

The Hard Mode exploit is a little more interesting.... Because, there are SO FEW people that have cleared the content to even have access to the lockout. Also, someone (or someones) have transferred that lockout across servers and there are many instances of it being sold. It's for top-tier gear, that 99% of the game's population isn't capable of clearing right now.... Who is to blame for that? Well.... there's only so many people who have cleared the content legitimately, so that wouldn't be hard to figure out.

 

All that said.... It still comes back to the simple statement that: All of this could have been avoided, if Bioware had addressed the issue early on, instead of pretending like it didn't exist. And fresh on the heels of being told that the "Early Access" that we all paid actual real-world money for, they viewed as "Pay-to-Beta" and released a buggy, partially finished product to us and called it "done" and that we got what we paid for.

 

I'm still a SWTOR fanboy... But... this whole situation that they let go on for far too long... No matter what they do, it's going to end badly.

 

QFT.

 

This is what i said in my last reply in this thread. I totally agree that theres no good ending in sight over this fiasco.

[TUXs]

Bioware has a conundrum on their hands.....

 

Problem #1 - They did not react in ANY fashion to the exploit, whether by disabling the operation when the exploit surfaced until they could fix it, or by simply acknowledging that they knew it existed and would get it fixed asap and warned of punitive action ahead of time.

 

Problem #2 - Because of problem #1, the exploit has been allowed to remain on the live servers, with NO response from the developers/CM team for a long time. This has caused the reach of the exploit to make it to a large population of the playerbase.

 

Problem #3 - Because of problem #2, most of the playerbase either KNOWS about the exploit, or has done it themselves. This has caused a polarization of the playerbase, with two very different opinions:

 

Opinion 1- The game lets me do it, so I am going to use the loot pinata.

Opinion 2- You're using something obviously not working as intended, so you should be punished for what you're doing.

 

Problem #4 - Because of problems #1 & #3, Bioware has been "forced" into a position of having to REACT instead of being able to be PROACTIVE.

 

Problem #5 - Because of problem #4, Bioware has to now scramble with a way to both fix the exploit so it doesn't keep happening, AND find a way to appease the population of the playerbase who hold Opinion 2 by "punishing" the people who exploited, while at the same time, not enacting a "punishment" that is so harsh that they lose the people who hold Opinion 1 in the process. It's a rough spot they put themselves in, as they are not going to make anyone "happy" without losing paying customers, which isn't something Bioware wants to do.

 

I don't have any sympathy for Bioware with the position they've put themselves in, for the sole purpose that you can trace everything back to PROBLEM #1.

 

The Story Mode exploit in MY mind, is not as a big of a deal. It's not top-end gear, and clearing the operation is something that most of the raiders in the game are capable of doing. So it's not "cheesing" or "exploiting" content you can't clear.... It's shortening the gear grind. Still questionable if you ask me, but not so "devious"....

 

The Hard Mode exploit is a little more interesting.... Because, there are SO FEW people that have cleared the content to even have access to the lockout. Also, someone (or someones) have transferred that lockout across servers and there are many instances of it being sold. It's for top-tier gear, that 99% of the game's population isn't capable of clearing right now.... Who is to blame for that? Well.... there's only so many people who have cleared the content legitimately, so that wouldn't be hard to figure out.

 

All that said.... It still comes back to the simple statement that: All of this could have been avoided, if Bioware had addressed the issue early on, instead of pretending like it didn't exist. And fresh on the heels of being told that the "Early Access" that we all paid actual real-world money for, they viewed as "Pay-to-Beta" and released a buggy, partially finished product to us and called it "done" and that we got what we paid for.

 

I'm still a SWTOR fanboy... But... this whole situation that they let go on for far too long... No matter what they do, it's going to end badly.

Great post!!!

[Mazanator]

Kappa

[Ocho-Quatro]

Great post!!!

 

You love me TUXs

[JSitruc]

Bioware has a conundrum on their hands.....

 

Problem #1 - They did not react in ANY fashion to the exploit, whether by disabling the operation when the exploit surfaced until they could fix it, or by simply acknowledging that they knew it existed and would get it fixed asap and warned of punitive action ahead of time.

 

Problem #2 - Because of problem #1, the exploit has been allowed to remain on the live servers, with NO response from the developers/CM team for a long time. This has caused the reach of the exploit to make it to a large population of the playerbase.

 

Problem #3 - Because of problem #2, most of the playerbase either KNOWS about the exploit, or has done it themselves. This has caused a polarization of the playerbase, with two very different opinions:

 

Opinion 1- The game lets me do it, so I am going to use the loot pinata.

Opinion 2- You're using something obviously not working as intended, so you should be punished for what you're doing.

 

Problem #4 - Because of problems #1 & #3, Bioware has been "forced" into a position of having to REACT instead of being able to be PROACTIVE.

 

Problem #5 - Because of problem #4, Bioware has to now scramble with a way to both fix the exploit so it doesn't keep happening, AND find a way to appease the population of the playerbase who hold Opinion 2 by "punishing" the people who exploited, while at the same time, not enacting a "punishment" that is so harsh that they lose the people who hold Opinion 1 in the process. It's a rough spot they put themselves in, as they are not going to make anyone "happy" without losing paying customers, which isn't something Bioware wants to do.

 

I don't have any sympathy for Bioware with the position they've put themselves in, for the sole purpose that you can trace everything back to PROBLEM #1.

 

The Story Mode exploit in MY mind, is not as a big of a deal. It's not top-end gear, and clearing the operation is something that most of the raiders in the game are capable of doing. So it's not "cheesing" or "exploiting" content you can't clear.... It's shortening the gear grind. Still questionable if you ask me, but not so "devious"....

 

The Hard Mode exploit is a little more interesting.... Because, there are SO FEW people that have cleared the content to even have access to the lockout. Also, someone (or someones) have transferred that lockout across servers and there are many instances of it being sold. It's for top-tier gear, that 99% of the game's population isn't capable of clearing right now.... Who is to blame for that? Well.... there's only so many people who have cleared the content legitimately, so that wouldn't be hard to figure out.

 

All that said.... It still comes back to the simple statement that: All of this could have been avoided, if Bioware had addressed the issue early on, instead of pretending like it didn't exist. And fresh on the heels of being told that the "Early Access" that we all paid actual real-world money for, they viewed as "Pay-to-Beta" and released a buggy, partially finished product to us and called it "done" and that we got what we paid for.

 

I'm still a SWTOR fanboy... But... this whole situation that they let go on for far too long... No matter what they do, it's going to end badly.

 

Post of the day!

 

After 3 weeks of silence from DEVs, exploits no longer are exploits and become part of the game.

[Jandi]

The need of asking for a prize just for acting like a decent human being never ceases to amaze me. How about you simply feel good about the fact that you didn't exploit? I mean, do you go to the clerk in the store and ask for cookies everytime you *don't* steal form the store?

 

Lunacy

[Max_Killjoy]

what?! That doesn't help...it just confuses me more now

 

ar-guhl-bar-guhl

[Ocho-Quatro]

Post of the day!

 

After 3 weeks of silence from DEVs, exploits no longer are exploits and become part of the game.

 

I never said it wasn't an exploit, or justified the actions of any person using it, selling it, or starting it. If you read my post, and actually understood it's context, you'd have realized that the problem here is NOT an exploit anymore.... It's what the repercussions from whatever action/non-action Bioware takes NOW, 3 weeks after the fact, will have on the game and the playerbase given the massive polarization that's occurred as a result of the rampant nature of the exploit.

 

I honestly couldn't care less about the actual exploit... what I DO care about, is what the delayed reaction from Bioware is going to mean to the game that I enjoy playing and how it WILL negatively impact it.

 

That was the point of the post, which sadly, you've appeared to have missed.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Ocho-Quatro

[Infernixx]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that officially ignored exploits become legitimate after a month.

 

I 'will' say that after the Nefra thing that went on for months and no one got punished for it, they created a precedent for people assuming that the same would happen here.

[Ocho-Quatro]

... after the Nefra thing that went on for months and no one got punished for it, they created a precedent....

 

^ this.

[TUXs]

ar-guhl-bar-guhl

 

Ahhhhhh!!!

[Sashandra]

For all the people that think its a small number of people that engaged in the exploit, spend some time on fleet checking achievements, personally I bet you see more that have done it than didn't. For example, for the first 1.5 hours after reset there was between 72-95 instance of ravagers open on Harbinger. That is alot of characters, and you can bet not many were doing a full raid. That was just one side on one server for 1.5 hours.

 

As for people call for rollbacks, how can they separate legitimate activities and not rollback those?

Remove all gear and money? Might as well ban, nobody will start naked and broke.

New tiers of gear, better optimization? Alot of work there, we wont see it in the time frame BW gave for the fix/punishment.

The only good suggestion so far is a small reward for those that didn't exploit, ie a title or mount.

 

Had bioware acknowledged this at the start and posted of punitive action then it would not be widespread. Another thing bioware could of done to minimize the impact and usage is to have done the server restart each week, start before the weekly reset and end after it, would of helped the servers for these 3 weeks and also prevented the lockout being carried. 2 simple actions that would of almost prevented this from happening at all. 2 simple proactive actions instead of having now to react to a massive situation.

 

Also, bioware cant really hit hard with the ban hammer without people then calling for them to go back and hit all the PVP and Nefra exploiters.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Sashandra

[Quraswren]

SNIP...

 

I'm still a SWTOR fanboy... But... this whole situation that they let go on for far too long... No matter what they do, it's going to end badly.

 

Decent post but here is where I see you being slight wrong.

 

Everyone knows there are software bugs. It happens at launch of games or any software really. There are many bugs and most gamers during those times freely accept those bugs as a possibility. The software could be worked on for a year and gamers know at launch bugs will happen and be there and most are understanding of that.

 

Where did that understanding go here? Did it go out the door because free loot was involved? Did that understanding go out the door because exploiters just don't want to be punished? Did that understanding go out the door because they were caught with their hand in the cookie jar?

 

NOw, ee get a bug in this small expansion that allows gamers to exploit something, nearly every SWTOR gamer clearly knows is wrong and is cheating/exploiting but to make themselves feel better they through it back on BW as if they are the only ones at fault. Yelling, You didn't say something fast enough or you didn't fix it fast enough so I used it, exploited and you should just shut up about it. It's the coders fault.

 

That exploiting the game in a way we know is wrong is OK just because of a bug and it took a while for acknowledgement to happen and a bit longer for a fix to happen.

 

There is certain level if weirdness in that so many say let cheating happen and BW is to blame but not me for doing what I know was wrong. Then in another instance (launch) we get bugs happen and try to let them slide becuse we understand bugs happen. In this case lets crucify BW so gamers don't have to own up to their actions but in a similar instance we let it slide.

 

It seems to me it might be more wide spread then I originally thought with so many that suddenly want to blame BW solely for the bug and take no accountability for their own actions that they know were clearly wrong and against the rules.

[Bugattiboy]

On Tuesday I guess we will see what EA cares more about. Their revenue or their playerbase. Is anyone actually expecting them to choose 'playerbase'?

 

ie a title or mount.

That will probably do more harm than good. If they give something like that it'll just be known as the "good-too-shoes" title/mount/whatever

 

Did it go out the door because free loot was involved?

Yes. Instant gratification is very a big incentive.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Bugattiboy

[Theeko]

Or if the ToS for every mmo is truely fake or real

[AMulls]

The "people knew it was wrong, but they did it anyway, so they should be punished" argument makes me laugh as well.

 

I know that owning a slave, placing a shock collar on it, and continually shocking said slave is wrong, too. But I do it anyway, because it's fun. Other things that I know are wrong:

 

1. Murdering people, in particular bounties that surrendered to me willingly that I could have easily frozen in carbonite and taken in.

2. Destroying whole planets with rockets from Cademimu.

3. Stealing information from the SIS.

4. Killing Jaessa's parents and turning her to the dark side.

5. Freeing the Dread Masters from Belsavis.

6. Pretty much any dark side choice, ever.

 

You know why none of these things makes me a bad person? Because it's a game. Because none of these choices affected anyone else's gameplay in any way. Because no one was actually hurt, at all, by any of these choices. IT. IS. A. GAME.

[Jandi]

The "people knew it was wrong, but they did it anyway, so they should be punished" argument makes me laugh as well.

 

I know that owning a slave, placing a shock collar on it, and continually shocking said slave is wrong, too. But I do it anyway, because it's fun. Other things that I know are wrong:

 

1. Murdering people, in particular bounties that surrendered to me willingly that I could have easily frozen in carbonite and taken in.

2. Destroying whole planets with rockets from Cademimu.

3. Stealing information from the SIS.

4. Killing Jaessa's parents and turning her to the dark side.

5. Freeing the Dread Masters from Belsavis.

6. Pretty much any dark side choice, ever.

 

You know why none of these things makes me a bad person? Because it's a game. Because none of these choices affected anyone else's gameplay in any way. Because no one was actually hurt, at all, by any of these choices. IT. IS. A. GAME.

 

A game has rules for a reason.

 

How fun would a game of Monopoly be when you could just take money from the bank when you're about to lose? Yeah, not very.

[Infernixx]

A game has rules for a reason.

 

How fun would a game of Monopoly be when you could just take money from the bank when you're about to lose? Yeah, not very.

 

Monopoly isn't meant to be fun or enjoyed. It was designed as a demonstration that capitalism sucks.

[Jandi]

Monopoly isn't meant to be fun or enjoyed. It was designed as a demonstration that capitalism sucks.

 

capitalism sucks only when you lose.

[Bugattiboy]

capitalism sucks only when you lose.

 

Be quiet Comcast.

[Simcity]

I don't know how hard this is from a developer standpoint.. but why didn't they shut down all instances of the operation once they had knowledge there was an exploit (damage control?)

 

Not taking any steps whatsoever seems to me that it made the situation even worse, because now there are far more people that have abused the exploit than there would have been.

 

Like many people posted they can either commit commercial suicide and ban a very large portion of their population (and yes, it is a very significant portion)

 

Or piss off the legitimate gamer's that were yelling and screaming for a fix that didn't come for weeks.

 

I don't envy them right now