The hate towards the game... Why?

[Edzew]

The part of the quote I was replying to was "this game isn't really an MMORPG game", which it absolutely is. It is Massive. It is Multiplayer. It is Online. It is a Role Playing Game.

 

Is it the cutscenes that make if feel like a single player game? That is the only significant difference I can see between older MMOs and this one.

 

did you see a "." after the word "game"? what makes it feel like a single player game is that you are basically on rails the entire time. the game is very linear, you cant wander off the path and explore, you can try but you will soon run into a wall of some sort and some times die. also i dont know of any other MMORPG that you can play completely solo and never ever group up with another person, go from level 1 to max level never needing to group up with anyone.

[Dreadicus]

did you see a "." after the word "game"? what makes it feel like a single player game is that you are basically on rails the entire time. the game is very linear, you cant wander off the path and explore, you can try but you will soon run into a wall of some sort and some times die. also i dont know of any other MMORPG that you can play completely solo and never ever group up with another person, go from level 1 to max level never needing to group up with anyone.

 

This blows my mind. You just described 'what' a MMO is, yet you're saying it isn't? Part of a 'true' MMO *is* that you can wander off, and yes you might get your @ss handed to you for exploring, especially into areas maybe too high a level for you - but you still can! This game is NOT on rails - you can do whatever you want outside of their well-lit , path they provide (no one is making you do 'anything' in this game to advance.. You could go to 60 and not do 1 single quest, if you really wanted to..) Is it Bio's fault they provided such a well-lit path for noobs - or you for sticking to it like glue??

 

I solo'd WoW for years.. I actually don't know of any MMO since EQ, where you 'couldn't' solo to the end game stages, all on your own..

 

I swear you and all the 'debate team' wanna-be lawyer/psych 101 class attendees on here arguing your points that actually defeat your own points, boggles the mind.

[Warrgames]

did you see a "." after the word "game"? what makes it feel like a single player game is that you are basically on rails the entire time. the game is very linear, you cant wander off the path and explore, you can try but you will soon run into a wall of some sort and some times die. also i dont know of any other MMORPG that you can play completely solo and never ever group up with another person, go from level 1 to max level never needing to group up with anyone.

 

Sound like you have never played any other MMORPG. I have leveled 1-Max mainly solo in every mmo I have every played. I did do some group stuff about as much as I did in ToR leveling. You have a choice to play how you want.

[Edzew]

This blows my mind. You just described 'what' a MMO is, yet you're saying it isn't? Part of a 'true' MMO *is* that you can wander off, and yes you might get your @ss handed to you for exploring, especially into areas maybe too high a level for you - but you still can! This game is NOT on rails - you can do whatever you want outside of their well-lit , path they provide (no one is making you do 'anything' in this game to advance.. You could go to 60 and not do 1 single quest, if you really wanted to..) Is it Bio's fault they provided such a well-lit path for noobs - or you for sticking to it like glue??

 

I solo'd WoW for years.. I actually don't know of any MMO since EQ, where you 'couldn't' solo to the end game stages, all on your own..

 

I swear you and all the 'debate team' wanna-be lawyer/psych 101 class attendees on here arguing your points that actually defeat your own points, boggles the mind.

 

i think you misunderstood me. i dont mean critters will kill you nor do i mean that critters is keeping you on the path. what i mean is there is no exploration, you go too far off the path you die i.e. you get a message on screen saying turn around now or you will die. and whats really sad is its not really all that far off the path. on the worlds you have a narrow path you must follow, there is no deviation from that set path area at all.

[NogueiraA]

One thing that I really hate is this Hero Engine.

I run Battlefield 4 Ultra @1080p with 75~95FPS... While swtor runs like ****, 15fps in a 16man.

[Edzew]

Sound like you have never played any other MMORPG. I have leveled 1-Max mainly solo in every mmo I have every played. I did do some group stuff about as much as I did in ToR leveling. You have a choice to play how you want.

 

mainly isn't the same thing as completely

 

i have leveled 2 toons COMPLETLY SOLO. NEVER grouped with anyone. i cant say that about any other MMO i have ever played. and yes i have played many others. in all other MMOs i have played you had to group up for a lot of the quests from level 1 - max level.

[OddballEasyEight]

i quit reading once i got to this... that's not true at all. people said it was because the game was too full of bugs, way too linear and it felt like you were on rails the entire time (not usually a part of an MMO, instead a single player game). the mention of SWG never came up when talking about why people left this game. (quick edit) im talking about in that first month after launch... now days there have been one or two people i have seen mention SWG but they never said they expected this game to be SWG2 they just usually point out that even though SWG was 10 years old it still did some thing way better than this game B^P

 

Well it's nice to know you're one of those who stop reading when it's something you don't agree with, but I honestly don't care what you say since I was actually here at launch and know for a fact that plenty of people were comparing it to SWG.

[OddballEasyEight]

Actually, people left because they skipped through the content (which BioWare in their inexperience did not account for, they did not expect average player to spend 40+ hrs (some even 120+ hrs) a week) and found out that the endgame was a bit lacking.

Had the game released with 1.2 content, or if majority of players reached the endgame by the time 1.2 launched (which I think BW assumed would be the case), we could have had much different story.

 

Yeah, funny how that worked out.

 

Here Bioware were, having designed an MMO with focus on story and cutscenes, and heavily marketed as such, and then people just completely skipped all the cutscenes and complained that there was nothing to do :/

 

Was it foolish of BW to expect people to play the games storylines which they had spent hundreds of millions on?

Maby.

But I'd say its more foolish of people to come to a game that is touted as being completely voice acted and with a heavy focus on the storyline and then just skip all that and whine that there aren't enough raids and dungeons.

 

But sure, BW could have launched with a few more Ops and FP's.

[branmakmuffin]

i think you misunderstood me. i dont mean critters will kill you nor do i mean that critters is keeping you on the path. what i mean is there is no exploration, you go too far off the path you die i.e. you get a message on screen saying turn around now or you will die. and whats really sad is its not really all that far off the path. on the worlds you have a narrow path you must follow, there is no deviation from that set path area at all.

That's the way this game works. We all know that. Complaining about it is like complaining that butter is greasy. If you don't like greasy butter, don't eat butter.

Edited January 3, 2015 by branmakmuffin

[Damask_Rose]

did you see a "." after the word "game"? what makes it feel like a single player game is that you are basically on rails the entire time. the game is very linear, you cant wander off the path and explore, you can try but you will soon run into a wall of some sort and some times die. also i dont know of any other MMORPG that you can play completely solo and never ever group up with another person, go from level 1 to max level never needing to group up with anyone.

 

The amount of exploration in a game is a design decision and not in the least indicative of it being an MMO. I'm not sure how many games are designed that way, but I do know LotRO is. They had more impassable mountains instead of exhaustion zones. ESO solved it by having everything on fairly small islands. From what I understand modern games have technical difficulties that older ones did not. (If you are curious about the programming reasons, join my husband on one of his streams and he can explain it to you. He is very good at that.)

 

You could level to max in Asheron's Call and AC2 without ever grouping. Ditto LotRO. Ditto City of Heroes/ Villians. Group content existed, but it was entirely optional. I'm pretty sure you can do the same in nearly every other MMO out there if you are so inclined.

[Arkerus]

Well OP your own post kinda details part of problem with SW:TOR

 

 

 

In MMO terms 200 hours is a minor drop in the bucket yet by your own admission you have done everything already

 

Thats where most of the hate comes from (even if many posters still refuse to admit it or recognize it).

 

Was a post yesterday where guy was complaining he was bored of MMOs because hes doing same thing over and over.

 

What he doesnt realize yet (the modern era rarely does) is its not the repetition hes bored of. MMOs have basically been the same quest wise since day 1, as has RPGs in general. What is really effecting him is he feels no sense of accomplishment from doing those same things over and over.

 

The genre was massively dumbed down with the release of WOW and games like Rift and SW:TOR have lowered the bar even more challenge wise.

So the natural effect of dumbing it down and making it easier and easier is ..... you no long get any sort of feeling of accomplishment (IE: Excitement) from hitting what was once BIG MOMENTS in a game.

 

Much of the hate cane be drawn back to the simple fact that modern MMORPGs just do not give the adrenaline burst or grand feeling of accomplishment that they once did (and queue the normal same posters that like to claim the counter of any post I make no matter how much evidence there is to support what I'm saying, because its all about them and only them).

 

I remember back in EQ, EVERY TIME you hit a level after level 20 you were excited because it wasn't easy and not every player would do it. It had value. Todays MMORPGs work on concept that every player, no matter how poorly they play, deserves to be apart of ALL aspects of the game. And the only way to acheive that is to dumb it down and there by removing the value or worth that use to be associated to those achievements.

 

Heck even achievements in SW:TOR are so simplistic to achieve they require no dedication or devotion. You EXPECT everyone to achieve them so you hold no real value regarding them.

 

The removal of challenge, difficulty, value from MMORPGs has created a genre that gets stale very fast.

And when people are bored quickly with something they had hoped to spend 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of hours in (as the genre was originally designed around doing) they become bitter and that bitterness turns into hate.

 

No word of a lie, almost every single complaint in SW:TOR can be back tracked in one manner or another to lack of challenge creating disillusionment with the game, franchise, genre.

 

With SW:TOR its even worse because so many people wanted to love this game. They fought the disillusionment for so long because deep down they wanted to love this game. Which means when they finally did hit rock bottom the crash and impact was all the worse and created even harsher emotional feedback.

 

Hope that answers your question.

Its been the same trend since the WOW clones started to be made and until someone steps away from the faster, easier, dumber model and just designs a game to have long lasting appeal and content, the hatred in genre is just going to grow bigger and bigger.

 

Remember, MMORPGs are based on RPG principles and RPGs have always been about the JOURNEY. WOW changed the genre to look at the end rather then the journey, and the genre has suffered (not WOW but all games after it utilizing its principles and design) for it huge.

 

PS: To guy saying people want SWG2.0. NOT TRUE. There is a very vocal MINORITY that spams forums for SWG 2.0 but make no mistake they are a very very very small minority. Sandbox games simply have not worked in North America specifically but really you could say world wide honestly. SWG was very much a sandbox game. There is a new Sandbox game ArchAge out but like SWG its developed a small following at best here in North America.

 

Only a very very very small minority of players want SWG 2.0

 

I think what makes most upset is they really did want KotOR 3-12 as promised and this game comes up far short in that regard missing the mark on many of the key elements that made KotOR 1 and 2 such a fan favorite and beloved by so many.

 

Another "WoW ruined the genre" post. Seriously, get over it. There are so many options out there. If you are sticking around here after the big bad companies took away your precious games the only person you can blame is yourself. The market is huge now and there are so many other options available for those looking for a more "traditional" MMO experience.

 

MMOs make more money for their respective companies now more than they ever have before so please tell me exactly how the genre has suffered. The genre is suffering at all. In fact, if anything, there are probably too many options an the market may even be diluted. It is, however, far from suffering.

 

Don't like what WoW did? Go play another game that suits your interest. Its that simple.

 

This is all secondary to your own rosy colored glasses. You will never have those "first time" moments again even if a game comes out that suits your interests because your brain is now accustomed to it. Your brain is now conditioned for MMOs.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Arkerus

[Zorvan]

One thing that I really hate is this Hero Engine.

I run Battlefield 4 Ultra @1080p with 75~95FPS... While swtor runs like ****, 15fps in a 16man.

 

At least EAware's hacked together HeroEngine coding works better than Zenimax 's TESO version. I don't see red boxes everywhere with "missing texture" written on them or have to use "repair" every other day because some file got borked just from playing. And I don't have to dig into the .ini files to change various settings to make the game run halfassed smooth because the ingame settings also change other settings behind the scenes. You think "ability delay" is a big issue in ToR, you'll think ToR is the smoothest playing game ever after dealing with lag and crashes to desktop seemingly every ten minutes with TESO.

 

Never actually thought I'd see the day when I'd give EAware credit for their Frankensteined HeroEngine, but then Zenimax showed how bad it can really be when a developer doesn't understand how their chosen engine works at all.

[Edzew]

The amount of exploration in a game is a design decision and not in the least indicative of it being an MMO. I'm not sure how many games are designed that way, but I do know LotRO is. They had more impassable mountains instead of exhaustion zones. ESO solved it by having everything on fairly small islands. From what I understand modern games have technical difficulties that older ones did not. (If you are curious about the programming reasons, join my husband on one of his streams and he can explain it to you. He is very good at that.)

 

You could level to max in Asheron's Call and AC2 without ever grouping. Ditto LotRO. Ditto City of Heroes/ Villians. Group content existed, but it was entirely optional. I'm pretty sure you can do the same in nearly every other MMO out there if you are so inclined.

 

sure but if your MMO is just one boxed in room , its not much of an MMO now is it? TOR really is just pathways some points the pathways widen and gives you a since of wide open spaces but its really not. the only two planets that sorta open up are Tat and Hoth though Tat is the worst with exhaustion zones.

 

as for the other part. i have never played AC, AC2 or LotRO but i have played Cit5y of Heroes/Villans. and i dont disagree that group content is optional.. heck this game has group content BUT in CoH/V there were quests that did require you to group up with at least one other person. these were not raids/dungeons/war zones/arenas these were progression quests. this game dose not have that at all, it focuses on you and your companion and acts like there is no one else in this game. because you have a companion there is no need for you to group up with other players.

[Edzew]

Well it's nice to know you're one of those who stop reading when it's something you don't agree with, but I honestly don't care what you say since I was actually here at launch and know for a fact that plenty of people were comparing it to SWG.

 

yea i was here too and it was mostly people complaining about the things i listed and very very few people ever even mentioned SWG.

 

people didn't come into this game expecting SWG2 to even think that is just silly. they came in expecting it to no still be in beta and with most of the bugs mentioned IN beta to be fixed but nothing was fixed. THAT was the biggest problem and the people that didn't get into the beta thought it would be more open than it is and was shocked by how limiting the game really was, from the character creation to the worlds themselves even down to the options you get in quests. space was a joke back then and that too was a huge upset for a large portion of the player base.

 

 

the biggest problem with threads like these is it brings out the biodrones that swoop in to defend their precious came because to them its perfect. If anyone comes in and points out its flaws they must be wrong and must be SWG vets who want to turn ToR into SWG2

[enigmacypher]

as for the other part. i have never played AC, AC2 or LotRO but i have played Cit5y of Heroes/Villans. and i dont disagree that group content is optional.. heck this game has group content BUT in CoH/V there were quests that did require you to group up with at least one other person. these were not raids/dungeons/war zones/arenas these were progression quests. this game dose not have that at all, it focuses on you and your companion and acts like there is no one else in this game. because you have a companion there is no need for you to group up with other players.

 

CoX I played both on villains and hero side and I know that this game was better grouped (there were also a LOT of really good friendly players who "helped" each other just because it was the right thing to do [sadly I left there and went and played champions online when it came out and that was a bad idea]).

 

LotRO was possible to solo but really really slow.. and often painful (though I liked the mix and stopped playing after they changed things to a FTP basis and I thought the FTP was a cheat since in reality the game really couldn't be played FTP at all)..

 

This game went more along the line of WoW with a lot of soloing BUT they added a companion so solo content was often trivial and even 2 to 4 man heroics were pretty easy even when near your level at times (4 man you could usually pull off soloing when it was 1 level to greyed out)..

 

It has always been the fact that as a single player you really have 2 characters (which I guess removes some double boxing of the game that is VERY common in other games) .. If you are a tank you take a healer Comp .. healer take a tank companion and in both these instances have it made.. the only problem is DPS as they aren't durable enough nor have enough or even any self healing to do the same as the tank/healer does and this is always going to be and should always be a problem since the only way to avoid it is to make their damage ungodly and then PvP would be nuts..

 

 

I for one don't hate the game just the way it is being handled from the aspect of repairing issues when they occur .. IT is a month after lag was complained about after SoR came out and still they are "looking into it" .. I would think that they should at least KNOW something but they seem to be still lost in the dark.

[Kalfear]

Another "WoW ruined the genre" post. Seriously, get over it. There are so many options out there. If you are sticking around here after the big bad companies took away your precious games the only person you can blame is yourself. The market is huge now and there are so many other options available for those looking for a more "traditional" MMO experience.

 

MMOs make more money for their respective companies now more than they ever have before so please tell me exactly how the genre has suffered. The genre is suffering at all. In fact, if anything, there are probably too many options an the market may even be diluted. It is, however, far from suffering.

 

Don't like what WoW did? Go play another game that suits your interest. Its that simple.

 

This is all secondary to your own rosy colored glasses. You will never have those "first time" moments again even if a game comes out that suits your interests because your brain is now accustomed to it. Your brain is now conditioned for MMOs.

 

Reading comprehension really isnt your strong suit is it?

[Damask_Rose]

sure but if your MMO is just one boxed in room , its not much of an MMO now is it? TOR really is just pathways some points the pathways widen and gives you a since of wide open spaces but its really not. the only two planets that sorta open up are Tat and Hoth though Tat is the worst with exhaustion zones.

 

as for the other part. i have never played AC, AC2 or LotRO but i have played Cit5y of Heroes/Villans. and i dont disagree that group content is optional.. heck this game has group content BUT in CoH/V there were quests that did require you to group up with at least one other person. these were not raids/dungeons/war zones/arenas these were progression quests. this game dose not have that at all, it focuses on you and your companion and acts like there is no one else in this game. because you have a companion there is no need for you to group up with other players.

 

If your MMO is just one boxed in room with hundreds or thousands of people in it, it is still an MMO, just not one that an explorer would enjoy. Just because you don't like the way an MMO is designed, doesn't mean it isn't an MMO.

 

You mentioned that you didn't know of any other MMO that you could get to max level completely solo. I gave you a list of games that easily could be. By saying optional group content in one game counts, but optional group content in another game doesn't, you are using a double standard.

[Andryah]

the biggest problem with threads like these is it brings out the biodrones that swoop in to defend their precious came because to them its perfect. If anyone comes in and points out its flaws they must be wrong and must be SWG vets who want to turn ToR into SWG2

 

Setting aside your unneeded pejorative directed at anyone who likes the game and disagrees with you......

 

NOBODY thinks the game is without flaws. Even it's most positive supporters still criticize it, open bug reports, and ask for clarifications/reasons from devs on some game features. It's just that some people set realistic expectations when they play a game. A game..... real life expectations do not apply.. no matter how much you huff and puff and swing pejorative rhetoric at other forum members.

 

As for SWG and SWG2..... um... while I agree that they are a minority interest in the game population... they are also are a very venomous and vocal minority. They prosecute the SWG2 and SWGreboot agendas every month in this forum. So.. please... let's not pretend they are not squeaky wheels in ongoing forum discussion.

 

Now.. speaking of managing expectations... if you dislike the game so much (enough to call people who like it names in the forum) why do you continue to sub and play? You have lots of choice in the market. Why make yourself as miserable as you appear in your forum posts??? Sincere question, as I have never understood the disgruntled player who insists on playing on in disgruntled manner. It makes no sense. Or... is it that you actually like the game but are afraid to say anything positive (or even neutral about it)?

Edited January 3, 2015 by Andryah

[Kalfear]

Actually, people left because they skipped through the content (which BioWare in their inexperience did not account for, they did not expect average player to spend 40+ hrs (some even 120+ hrs) a week) and found out that the endgame was a bit lacking.

Had the game released with 1.2 content, or if majority of players reached the endgame by the time 1.2 launched (which I think BW assumed would be the case), we could have had much different story.

 

Aries when I wrote "and queue the same few posters that always try to counter my posts and fail" you were one of the few I was speaking of.

 

But lets look at what YOU WROTE

 

and found out that the endgame was a bit lacking.

 

Thats your very own words

So what part of that doesnt tell you that people hit end game in 2-4 weeks and quit because game was to easy (so easy that EA themselves didnt have endgame content inplace for them)

 

Oh you can make up phoney and foolish exuces EA didnt expect powergamers

Power gamers have been in this genre from day 1.

So since Feb of 1991 this genre has had to adjust for powergamers eating up content at insane paces

Yet its your claim that EA, a huge company with massive amount of experienced gamers and programers just over looked this aspect and play style?

 

Really?

Really?

Really?

 

And btw, REAL power gamers only make up for a small single digit percentage of a MMO yet SW:TOR experience massive complaints about no end game 2-4 weeks after release.

 

What did every player suddenly become a power gamer over night or did the easy and simplisity of SW:TOR at release artificially create a huge new group able to power game in this game alone.

 

And lastly, you say if SW:TOR released with 1.2 content at release those players would have stayed longer.

Maybe, some probably would have but doubt it would be nearly as many as you seem to think it was and a number of players came to SW:TOR to experience the advertised KotOR 3-12. And they did for the class they interested in and left 2-4 weeks later.

 

If SW:TOR however release with harder combat that was still solo-able (but grouping up was much faster and thus promoted) and group wise the xp came in at say even the current F2P pace. The end game would NOT have been exposed with in 2-4 weeks which would have given SW:TOR time to fully develop it (though honestly they had 5 years, it should have been ready at release I agree).

 

All they need to do was slow it down some and everything else would have improved 10 fold.

 

It was never going retain all its initial subscribers but it would have held onto a hell of allot more then it did and for much longer.

 

And heck, slow down the world xp would have promoted Flashpoints at level for all players.

I know a great number of players at release that never touched a flashpoint or heroic until max level because there simply was no need to . Slow down the leveling and more players would have utilized more content that was there for them, just ignored.

 

So yeah, your post basically agrees with what I said from the get go.

 

Lack of endgame content is only a issue if everyone can reach end game ultra fast (IE TO EASY)

[Andryah]

All they need to do was slow it down some and everything else would have improved 10 fold.

 

It was never going retain all its initial subscribers but it would have held onto a hell of allot more then it did and for much longer.

 

And heck, slow down the world xp would have promoted Flashpoints at level for all players.

I know a great number of players at release that never touched a flashpoint or heroic until max level because there simply was no need to . Slow down the leveling and more players would have utilized more content that was there for them, just ignored.

 

So yeah, your post basically agrees with what I said from the get go.

 

Lack of endgame content is only a issue if everyone can reach end game ultra fast (IE TO EASY)

 

Sorry, but these comments clearly show that you have particular preferences on your part, but these preferences are disconnected from the majority of today's MMO players.

 

Like it or not, a majority of players loaded SWTOR into their game thinking one of two things: 1) oooo.. shiny new SW game (MMO or not) or 2) they were getting some fresh KOTOR, in an MMO setting. Right or wrong expectations here is immaterial.

 

Further, like or not.. the world player base (not you, and not I) largely dictates what they want and how long they will stay around. And todays MMO player base is not the player base of a decade ago. A decade ago, players expected MMOs to be a tedious level grind to cap and tedious end game content afterwards. Sure.. some insiste tedious = challenging, but that is player misdirection for the most part. But we are in 2015 now, not 2005. The majority of player tastes have changed. And the MMO player base has been invaded and dominated by casual players who do actually want easy content to consume and enjoy. These same players (who come from the console gaming and mobile gaming markets, which are much much larger) do not understand or empathize with the long terms persistency of play inside an MMO. They actually think (and treat) MMOs as though they are to be consumed and discarded.

 

Wildstars post launch struggles pretty much exemplify the fact that the player base does not want tedious MMOs to play anymore. Sure.. some do.. but the large majority do not. The large majority do not even view MMOs as games to play for the long terms.. which is the real core issue for MMO retention these days (coupled with a large number of MMO choices out there for them to hop, hop, hop through).

 

TL;DR the market (player base) has changed over the last decade for MMOs. You don't have to like it, but there is not squat you can do about it. Today's modern player most often wants one thing.... to beat the game so they can discard it and move to the next one. However... making it tedious and slow for them to beat the game DOES NOT WORK with today's player base. Evidence: Wildstar.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Andryah

[Aries_cz]

Aries when I wrote "and queue the same few posters that always try to counter my posts and fail" you were one of the few I was speaking of.

I am part of a forum group, yaaaaay

 

So what part of that doesnt tell you that people hit end game in 2-4 weeks and quit because game was to easy (so easy that EA themselves didnt have endgame content inplace for them)

 

Oh you can make up phoney and foolish exuces EA didnt expect powergamers

It is not phony excuse, it is an actual statement from BW. Basically they said "yeah, we cocked up and did not expect that majority of people would put 40+ (or even 120+) hours per week into the game."

Power gamers have been in this genre from day 1.

So since Feb of 1991 this genre has had to adjust for powergamers eating up content at insane paces

Yet its your claim that EA, a huge company with massive amount of experienced gamers and programers just over looked this aspect and play style?

 

 

Really?

Really?

Really?

 

And btw, REAL power gamers only make up for a small single digit percentage of a MMO yet SW:TOR experience massive complaints about no end game 2-4 weeks after release.

As I said, official claim is that while they expected "some" people to put insane hours into the game, they did not expect average player to put the mentioned amount of time into the game.

 

And lastly, you say if SW:TOR released with 1.2 content at release those players would have stayed longer.

Maybe, some probably would have but doubt it would be nearly as many as you seem to think it was and a number of players came to SW:TOR to experience the advertised KotOR 3-12. And they did for the class they interested in and left 2-4 weeks later.

If someone played one class and left, then they did not get to play the promised KOTOR3-12, which was always meant if you played ALL the classes.

However, based on experience from people I know, who leveled much more slowly (presumably around the pace BW intended), and hit max level around February/March, were generally much more happy with the game.

 

If SW:TOR however release with harder combat that was still solo-able (but grouping up was much faster and thus promoted) and group wise the xp came in at say even the current F2P pace. The end game would NOT have been exposed with in 2-4 weeks which would have given SW:TOR time to fully develop it (though honestly they had 5 years, it should have been ready at release I agree).

 

All they need to do was slow it down some and everything else would have improved 10 fold.

 

It was never going retain all its initial subscribers but it would have held onto a hell of allot more then it did and for much longer.

 

And heck, slow down the world xp would have promoted Flashpoints at level for all players.

I know a great number of players at release that never touched a flashpoint or heroic until max level because there simply was no need to . Slow down the leveling and more players would have utilized more content that was there for them, just ignored.

 

So yeah, your post basically agrees with what I said from the get go.

 

Lack of endgame content is only a issue if everyone can reach end game ultra fast (IE TO EASY)

Slowing down leveling too much is not a solution either. You dangle that carrot for too long, eventually the horse gets annoyed and ignores it.

As I said, this all comes down to BW not expecting average player to put the mentioned huge amounts of time per week. We are not talking powergamers, but average players. When you average players is very close to general definition of powerleveler, it throws major wrench in everything.

[Kalfear]

 

TL;DR the market (player base) has changed over the last decade for MMOs. You don't have to like it, but there is not squat you can do about it. Today's modern player most often wants one thing.... to beat the game so they can discard it and move to the next one. However... making it tedious and slow for them to beat the game DOES NOT WORK with today's player base. Evidence: Wildstar.

 

blah blah blah

 

I offer up evidence, trends, explainations

 

 

you offfer up "oh look shiny thing, must touch"

 

Not sure how old you are And but one thing you learn with age is change for change sake is seldom good

Yes things change when there is a reason to change to something better

But changing just for the sake of changing (as you keep going back to over and over) often results in negative effects and outcomes

 

Which it has in MMORPG.

 

I mean show me these success's from the change you speak of

Rift..F2P in a year to stay open

SW:TOR Same as rift really

Both games still make most of its money from Subs, not F2P cartel purchases, so clearly F2P isnt the grand new trend posters like LA like to claim. If anything it appears double dipping on the subscription pools is the grand new trend. Wouldnt going back to just keeping subs in the first place make more sense?

 

Show me the evidence of what you speak.

Not what the kiddies want (because honestly most of the new generation just follow the herd anyways truthfully, they will goto subscription mmo if the herd does, as proven by sW:TOR initial release) but what makes good sense for the genre to grow and expand as a HEALTHY genre.

 

Make no mistake, this genre is NOT healthy right now

 

You have WOW and nothing else in North America truthfully

 

So floors all yours, show me the proff

Show me the evidence

Explain how what you keep saying helps the game and genre

 

Floor all yous

[Arkerus]

Reading comprehension really isnt your strong suit is it?

 

Yeah I did. And its obvious you think they took your precious MMO from you.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Arkerus

[Arkerus]

blah blah blah

 

I offer up evidence, trends, explainations

 

 

you offfer up "oh look shiny thing, must touch"

 

Not sure how old you are And but one thing you learn with age is change for change sake is seldom good

Yes things change when there is a reason to change to something better

But changing just for the sake of changing (as you keep going back to over and over) often results in negative effects and outcomes

 

Which it has in MMORPG.

 

I mean show me these success's from the change you speak of

Rift..F2P in a year to stay open

SW:TOR Same as rift really

Both games still make most of its money from Subs, not F2P cartel purchases, so clearly F2P isnt the grand new trend posters like LA like to claim. If anything it appears double dipping on the subscription pools is the grand new trend. Wouldnt going back to just keeping subs in the first place make more sense?

 

Show me the evidence of what you speak.

Not what the kiddies want (because honestly most of the new generation just follow the herd anyways truthfully, they will goto subscription mmo if the herd does, as proven by sW:TOR initial release) but what makes good sense for the genre to grow and expand as a HEALTHY genre.

 

Make no mistake, this genre is NOT healthy right now

 

You have WOW and nothing else in North America truthfully

 

So floors all yours, show me the proff

Show me the evidence

Explain how what you keep saying helps the game and genre

 

Floor all yous

 

What a surprise. Someone who fears change. Should have seen that coming. YOu sounds exactly like the union shop guys where I used to work. They HATED change. They hated when the IT project managers showed up because we were always replacing their ancient systems with new systems and they feared it like God itself. They hated it and used to trash the system whenever they could. A few years would go by and they would finally "shut up" when they got used to the new system. You use a ton of words but you have offered nothing to show for it except for phrases like "kiddies", which show that your argument is purely based on what YOU want and not what the market is dictating.

 

Re-read your own posts. The market isn't going to sway to what YOU want unless it heads in that direction. I'm not even saying your wrong, or stupid, of some kind of idiot for wanting what YOU want. However, you simply don't understand the economics of the deal. Long gone are the days of grindy, extremely open ended MMO RPGs. There are a few games left (and possibly coming) that may support that type of game play but BY and LARGE even small time developers want numbers. They want subs. Windstar is absolute proof that hardcore, grinders MMOs will not survive in the marketplace.

 

All those "failures" you listed above are all bigger (or as big) as EQ and SWG ever were. Your failure to understand F2P is evident. F2P doesn't exist to make money based on every F2P player. It exists to:

 

1. GIve people a low barrier to entry

2. Add people to the game to fill queues, group finder, etc

3. Finally, based on the above two items, make money with microtransactions

 

F2P isn't a magical wand used to make money and it never was. It exists to allow customers a very low barrier to entry, which in turn CAN generate funds.

 

I understand your frustration but call a spade a spade. You are looking for experiences the market no longer supports (or only supports in small niche titles). You are more than welcome to play anything you want. If anything, the market is saturated with MMOs and choices but the trend certainly isn't bad (or negative). The games willmorph and evolve as the market dictates.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Arkerus

[Kryptonomic]

I can't understand why people hate this game so much... Of course it has its flaws, but everything does! Look to great games that received GOTY, like Skyrim - the game was full of game-breaking bugs, yet people treat it like the ultimate masterpiece of gaming.

 

The same could be said of Dragon Age. But a key difference: you were not paying a subscription for a game like Skyrim or Dragon Age. Further, since those games were not being patched as much as an MMO, you ran into less issues. MMOs are in a constant state of update (for new content) and patches (fixing old content). Plus there's often "rebalancing" going on with classes. In software, constant state of update means more new bugs introduced and more regression bugs. Constant rebalancing means constant complaints about "nerfing" and classes that are "OP".

 

Further, many MMOs (unlike games like Skyrim) are dedicated toward the idea of getting to an "endgame" so that you can sit and do the same things over and over again so that you can get gear. And then do the same things over and over again. But that means new content is desirable and the new content is never fast enough for many players. Other games rely on DLC but tend to have very long campaigns as it is, but without the grind.

 

So my only point here is that comparing an MMO to non-MMOs and then correlating the "hate" is generally non-indicative. If you go to the forums of many MMOs (Guild Wars 2, Wildstar, Neverwinter, etc) you'll tend to find people complaining about their respective game just as much as they do about this game. It's kind of the leit motif of the average MMO player.

 

Personally, I like this game as well. Not as much as I likely would have preferred a single-player KOTOR 3. But since I can largely play this game solo for the purposes that I want to get out of it, I have very few complaints.

Edited January 3, 2015 by JeffNyman