Josewales Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) Two weeks ago I shelved my Mara and decided to give my Sin a dust off (been since launch). Once I got used to the Sin's KBs....night and day between the two. The Sins have some nice bag of tricks once KBs become second nature and are superior to the sitting duck class of the Mara.....sure the Mara has some nice sustainable damage, but once I learned to buy a few seconds into a fight as a Sin...lights out and that's even with pve gear as a Sin. Sure the Mara's suit well for the slower key strokers and are an easy mash for the less skilled....I get that. But come on BW...give the Mara/Sent better better survivability. A few seconds of poof and 99% doesnt do much in big scrums nor fights that go past a couple rotations. They have no real element of surprise and are easily countered. My main is a slinger and know this quite well. I feel for them. Edited January 2, 2015 by Josewales Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nostroo Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 No they aren't. If you know how to play them, you've got no problems. But i know it's hard to learn it, someone in my guild is playing a sent for three years now and i still hope he quits or change his main, because he can't play. So no offence, but l2p. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhauric Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 No they aren't. If you know how to play them, you've got no problems. But i know it's hard to learn it, someone in my guild is playing a sent for three years now and i still hope he quits or change his main, because he can't play. So no offence, but l2p. Must be a lot of learn to play folks out there because what the OP stated I have seen quite often since 3.0. Can't say personally as I haven't played the class in a long while but I wouldn't just brush his statements off with a l2p since it seems to hold some merit. A few posts stating it, yeah, but when it is coming in masses and from even those who do not play the class then there most likely is a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramtar Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) No they aren't. If you know how to play them, you've got no problems. But i know it's hard to learn it, someone in my guild is playing a sent for three years now and i still hope he quits or change his main, because he can't play. So no offence, but l2p. No offense, but it's not all L2P. It's more a overall dev design flaw that require Sentinel/Marauder to have a pocket healer or tank to thrive in PvP. This is why there have been more Sentinel/Marauder on the Group Rank top 50 than Solo Rank. Players shouldn't be punished for choosing to play any AC due to design flaws. I can't determine what AC my team mates will be when I queue Solo when playing my Sentinel. So don't handicap my team because of design flaws. Edited January 2, 2015 by Ramtar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chosonman Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) The biggest problem with maras and sents is the shear number of stuns and roots they're susceptible to and the fact that they don't have any DCD that can protect them from them from focus fire. Jug/Guaridans have unstoppable (Immune from CC), deflect (powerful ranged defense), force push (CC push force leap reset), Endure (Immune from root 50% speed boost), and Enraged Defense (heal 2 full). Rebuke/Cloak of pain is a pitifully weak defensive. The only way for Sent/maras to survive is to hit and run. So basically without a dedicated healer supporting them they can attack for 2-5 seconds and run away the rest of the match. What kind of sustained DPS can you do with that? Edited January 2, 2015 by chosonman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth__Reaver Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 No offense, but it's not all L2P. It's more a overall dev design flaw that require Sentinel/Marauder to have a pocket healer or tank to thrive in PvP. This is why there have been more Sentinel/Marauder on the Group Rank top 50 than Solo Rank. Players shouldn't be punished for choosing to play any AC due to design flaws. I can't determine what AC my team mates will be when I queue Solo when playing my Sentinel. So don't handicap my team because of design flaws. No sorry yes it is. I've seen some good sents/maras since 3.0 and they do just fine if not better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chosonman Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 No sorry yes it is. I've seen some good sents/maras since 3.0 and they do just fine if not better. You've seen.. but have you played? Not without a healer they're not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerrManstein Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 It only took one WZ post-3.0 for me to decide to mothball my main of over 2 years. Annihilation has been altered in a way that eliminated my preferred playstyle with it, and I have no desire adjust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savej Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 I've got over 10 lvl 55 sent/maras (added 3 during 12x) . But I haven't had the heart to try to play one in a wz since 3.0. Maybe if I had pocket healer q'ing with me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evanouss Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 No sorry yes it is. I've seen some good sents/maras since 3.0 and they do just fine if not better. Nope, not with out a lot of back up, heals, taunts, basically go in only if perfect comp premade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lafay Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) yes they are garbage next to what other classes can do in pvp right now. They need to make changes for this class in pvp bad. The heroic abilities are worthless accept 1, they could have been far more creative with them but instead they just gutted carnage's old tree and made all its old abilities heroic... or flat out removed them. Still bitter about deadly throw removal... When they were doing the class streaming I remember how the chat was going crazy and everyone was saying all these class heroic abilities were amazing and making everyone OP. The Musco calmly said that its ok, "everyone will have some sweet OP abilities"... well... not true, MARA/SENT is VERY lack luster next to other melee heroic abilities... I was so let down on the mara/sent class stream and i knew it right then and their just like everyone else watching knew it, the mara had died. Lets look at some OP stuff others get compared to mara... PT/VG 45% movement on HtL or HO, 40 meter pull! SIN/SHD deflection cc protection, need i say more, oh wait, here have guaranteed 2 sec shroud on cloak! OP/SMG evasion on rolls, 2 sec evasion on cloak, CD reduction for evasion/dodge on damage taken (so annoying) Jug/Grd HO/HtL on endure, root on saber throw (stolen from mara) cd reduction on best cd in game (ED) CD resets on leaving combat, i could go on and on here,these melee should be the "Bar" anything less and you are sorc fodder now look at mara... you have to use 2 GCD on an ability that does almost no damage to put a root on someone for 3 sec... and you have to be in 4 meter range for those 3-4 seconds to land it, good luck. THIS IS SOOO DUMB, no other word could better explain the stupidity here. force camo removes all effects? nope haha, just slows/roots, but now that everyone has slows on their rotation, it doesn't matter, you just burned a 45 second cool down for something that will automatically be applied the next gcd. This should have been a purge, on all debufs, even then its marginal. UR duration, on the surface this looks good but when you realize this CD is now a death sentence to you, if you use it, you are going to die (90% of the time). So you get stunned or rooted for those 2 extra seconds you bought with your heroic point, gj... Meanwhile sins/shadows can buy 2 seconds on their shroud in the master tier, along with force speed duration. Blood ward: what the hell, why would you put a heal on saber ward, the enemy will ahve a 50% acc debuff so they wont be hitting you much anyway, and never mind that it is only 3% and has an icd of 1.5 seconds. If you added to this to reduce CD os Saber ward by 30 sec and also removed the ICD of the heal on this, then it might be worth taking, but BW has no idea how to balance a mara/sent so... Brooding: This should be baseline for the class, remove it from the ability tree entirely. its usefull for the beginning of a match and maybe 2-3 times durring the match if you can get out of combat, but really its nothing that should be considered "heroic". /rant off Edited January 2, 2015 by Lafay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icykill_ Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 No offense, but it's not all L2P. It's more a overall dev design flaw that require Sentinel/Marauder to have a pocket healer or tank to thrive in PvP. This is why there have been more Sentinel/Marauder on the Group Rank top 50 than Solo Rank. Players shouldn't be punished for choosing to play any AC due to design flaws. I can't determine what AC my team mates will be when I queue Solo when playing my Sentinel. So don't handicap my team because of design flaws. That's a load of rubbish I played against a particular Sent in about 15 matches yesterday... It was like playing against an OP Jugg... Why?? Because he knew how to play... Most matches he had no healer and was nearly impossible to kill... I personally did 500k damage just to him in one match, while he took 800k in total... and he pumped out 1.7mil over all... I saw this sort of thing match after match... Didn't matter if he popped with a sh*t team, he still did massive numbers We both ended up going after each other when we popped together... Anyway... The player makes the class... The class doesn't make the player... An awesome player will always make any class appear OP... While a mediocre player will complain how bad the class is... It's a not a L2P problem, it's a learn some skill problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lafay Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 That's a load of rubbish I played against a particular Sent in about 15 matches yesterday... It was like playing against an OP Jugg... Why?? Because he knew how to play... Most matches he had no healer and was nearly impossible to kill... I personally did 500k damage just to him in one match, while he took 800k in total... and he pumped out 1.7mil over all... I saw this sort of thing match after match... Didn't matter if he popped with a sh*t team, he still did massive numbers We both ended up going after each other when we popped together... Anyway... The player makes the class... The class doesn't make the player... An awesome player will always make any class appear OP... While a mediocre player will complain how bad the class is... It's a not a L2P problem, it's a learn some skill problem While this is true, you cannot deny that if that same skill is applied to other classes, they are clearly superior in every way than a marauder/sentinel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calamatiesend Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 That's a load of rubbish I played against a particular Sent in about 15 matches yesterday... It was like playing against an OP Jugg... Why?? Because he knew how to play... Most matches he had no healer and was nearly impossible to kill... I personally did 500k damage just to him in one match, while he took 800k in total... and he pumped out 1.7mil over all... I saw this sort of thing match after match... Didn't matter if he popped with a sh*t team, he still did massive numbers We both ended up going after each other when we popped together... Anyway... The player makes the class... The class doesn't make the player... An awesome player will always make any class appear OP... While a mediocre player will complain how bad the class is... It's a not a L2P problem, it's a learn some skill problem Wow a Sent/Mara with no healer that was impossible to kill??? I think the L2P issue may be with you and your team if you cannot bring down one of the squishiest classes in the game right now. Also, I am glad he did 1.7mil apparently no one wanted to root him or use their KBs...... Can a good sent/mara put up good numbers? Sure, but if you play against good opponents you will get smashed as the class cannot stay on target currently with all the CC's flying around and our lack of cc immunity/purge with the exception of using our stacks for pred nerfing our dps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calamatiesend Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 While this is true, you cannot deny that if that same skill is applied to other classes, they are clearly superior in every way than a marauder/sentinel. Also this, my shadow does everything my mara does but better and faster with more survivability...... With the single exception of run speed for the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raansu Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Its not a L2P issue, the class literally cannot function in pvp right now. I've been playing sent/marauder since launch. I stuck with annihilation even after it got nerfed. But 3.0 is just bad. There is no point in playing this class right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icykill_ Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 While this is true, you cannot deny that if that same skill is applied to other classes, they are clearly superior in every way than a marauder/sentinel. Any class played by a highly skilled player will be OP to anyone not on their LVL... Class won't matter because a good player knows their class inside and out as well as knowing the opponents weaknesses... Then they play their strengths and exploit their opponents weaknesses I'm not saying I am the best player around... but I do play pvp daily for many hours and have done so since launch... I play with some of the best people on my server... we all agreed this guy was the best Sent player we had ever seen Since launch I have played every class in pvp... Even when they got nerfed... I learned to adjust and change tactics... That's all people need to do to make a class viable... Work out what is working and what isn't... Then adjust People have already worked out how to deal with Sorc/sages... Soon everyone will stop playing them because the tactics have changed... Personally I hope they do stop playing them and they don't get nerfed... It makes for a much more interesting match with them the way they are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lafay Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Also this, my shadow does everything my mara does but better and faster with more survivability...... With the single exception of run speed for the team. Yea, correct, that's the single saving grace of a mara right now, predation and its heroic tree buff to remove roots/slows when activated (they need to change this to remove slows and roots for everyone that gets predation, or change the tool tip to indicate only the person using predation gets the root break). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icykill_ Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Its not a L2P issue, the class literally cannot function in pvp right now. I've been playing sent/marauder since launch. I stuck with annihilation even after it got nerfed. But 3.0 is just bad. There is no point in playing this class right now. Don't stop playing it... Just look at it this way... Pretend it's a whole new class where you need to learn different tactics and priorities... I know it's hard to approach it like that... Especially if you have played the class for that long in a certain way... I had the same problem 18 months ago when they nerfed my Sorc... It took me a while to get my head around it because I was so used to playing a certain way... Imagine also if you can perfect it now... You'll be a god if they buff you later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calamatiesend Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Don't stop playing it... Just look at it this way... Pretend it's a whole new class where you need to learn different tactics and priorities... I know it's hard to approach it like that... Especially if you have played the class for that long in a certain way... I had the same problem 18 months ago when they nerfed my Sorc... It took me a while to get my head around it because I was so used to playing a certain way... Imagine also if you can perfect it now... You'll be a god if they buff you later You are talking to many of us that have mained this class since launch....... For me, I will not give it up and still continue to grind away. The problem is that we just cannot stay on target against decent opponents without giving up a large chunk of dps..... No matter of tactics will change that, if you play against good players. They will root you/KB and CC you like you would expect from anyone that pvps with a decent consistency and is a solid player. Without decent abilities to break those roots/ccs we are stuck outside of melee range doing small amounts of dps and getting blasted by range. The one small saving grace is that we will actually be decent in group ranked if we get some small DCD tweaks as Fury is pretty powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icykill_ Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Wow a Sent/Mara with no healer that was impossible to kill??? I think the L2P issue may be with you and your team if you cannot bring down one of the squishiest classes in the game right now. Also, I am glad he did 1.7mil apparently no one wanted to root him or use their KBs...... Can a good sent/mara put up good numbers? Sure, but if you play against good opponents you will get smashed as the class cannot stay on target currently with all the CC's flying around and our lack of cc immunity/purge with the exception of using our stacks for pred nerfing our dps. LoL... you're playing a sent or Mara and telling me to L2P because you can't play as well as the guy I saw... LMAO... Like I said... Class doesn't matter to the best skilled players... Also I didn't say he didn't die... I said he was " nearly" impossible to kill... Most of the time it was me killing him... seeing as we both seemed to look for each other in every match... I got to see all his tricks and tactics... My point was he was an exceptional player... Who knew how to play the class... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calamatiesend Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 LoL... you're playing a sent or Mara and telling me to L2P because you can't play as well as the guy I saw... LMAO... Like I said... Class doesn't matter to the best skilled players... Also I didn't say he didn't die... I said he was " nearly" impossible to kill... Most of the time it was me killing him... seeing as we both seemed to look for each other in every match... I got to see all his tricks and tactics... My point was he was an exceptional player... Who knew how to play the class... I more said it was L2P for your team as you said he had no healer........ Any sent/mara without a healer in a reg wz is very very easy to kill if you actually focus him. Player skill of course is important, but the class does not have the DCD to make us "nearly" impossible to kill..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icykill_ Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 You are talking to many of us that have mained this class since launch....... For me, I will not give it up and still continue to grind away. The problem is that we just cannot stay on target against decent opponents without giving up a large chunk of dps..... No matter of tactics will change that, if you play against good players. They will root you/KB and CC you like you would expect from anyone that pvps with a decent consistency and is a solid player. Without decent abilities to break those roots/ccs we are stuck outside of melee range doing small amounts of dps and getting blasted by range. The one small saving grace is that we will actually be decent in group ranked if we get some small DCD tweaks as Fury is pretty powerful. It's good you're going to stick it out... As far as roots etc go... You do know every class is trying to deal with these same problems, especially melee, but ranged as well... Sure some may have a utility etc to help... But once you make them use it they are in the same boat as you... its all tactics... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxmob Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) No sorry yes it is. I've seen some good sents/maras since 3.0 and they do just fine if not better. what sents can't your handle on our server? there are ppl well better at this game than me (couple in SF/Vicious, one in reign comes to mind)...they do great dmg, but they die quick in those yolos. if they win, it's usually because they have a stacked team (or my team is weak), not because they did anything special. normally, when you have great players like that in the match, they will tilt the board on their own. honestly, the only thing I really notice about maras that's a positive for them in 3.0 is they have a choke that they don't have to channel anymore. they really are exceptionally easy to control. give them heals and maybe a guard swap though...my oh my. as lethal as ever, imo. edit: Its not a L2P issue, the class literally cannot function in pvp right now. I've been playing sent/marauder since launch. I stuck with annihilation even after it got nerfed. But 3.0 is just bad. There is no point in playing this class right now. it's not bad at all in regs or in grp rated where you can pick up a pocket healer. I admit that this is a delicate class to balance, because they really can hit like a Mack truck, but they have pretty poor mobility and must be in 4m range to do much of anything. on the flip side of that, giving them unstoppable would quickly make carnage op, imo. so...yeah. it is tricky but the class as a whole is just too easily tethered atm. Edited January 2, 2015 by foxmob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icykill_ Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 I more said it was L2P for your team as you said he had no healer........ Any sent/mara without a healer in a reg wz is very very easy to kill if you actually focus him. Player skill of course is important, but the class does not have the DCD to make us "nearly" impossible to kill..... You make me laugh... Without knowing the players skills or tactics how can you make that assumption... Let me tell you this guy mixed up his tactics so he wasn't predictable... He obviously plays most other classes as well because he used all the tactics learned from playing those classes... He also knew when to retreat or disengage... Most Sents/maras I know just keep going till they die... He was smart... Knew how to survive and was back for more... I would bet there aren't many guys in the game with the sort of skill he had... But saying we were bad because he was exceptional... LoL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts