Grayseven Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 To sum up: "I'm DPS and I don't want to wait for people who tank or heal to queue so please cater to my inability to tank or heal myself." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Wicked Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 To sum up: "I'm DPS and I don't want to wait for people who tank or heal to queue so please cater to my inability to tank or heal myself." Not to mention "cater to my inability to learn something else, other spamming enemies to death with one or two abilities. IZ DA FUNZ!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cernow Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Funny that the last 9 flashpoints were designed to work as tacticals proving my point. They still work better when run as a traditional trinity. Sure you can complete them as 4 x dps, but it can be a pain, particularly Czerka Core Meltdown and Manaan. There's room in the game for Tacticals and I welcome them. Just like I welcoem more solo opportunities. But they shouldn't replace trinity content, just compliment and provide gameplay alternatives. There's nothing wrong with games that try and break out of the trinity system, the format has gotten rather stale. But to expect it here at this point in the game's lifecycle and reduiced dev budget is pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghisallo Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Funny that the last 9 flashpoints were designed to work as tacticals proving my point. And this is why when I say "want me to swap to heal spec or just straight burn" people say "heals and thank you." Simply because u can do something does not by any means make it optimal. Kinda like a gun fight. You can do it with a flint lock. Doesn't make it optimal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghisallo Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 (edited) Really? When in development, they said any four characters could fight an instanced battle then quietly abandoned this in favor of making a poor WoW clone. Now they have tacticals, which have proven popular by specifically being designed to ignore your precious trinity. This game is changing and I believe does well by focusing on the tactical concept and ignoring the hard mode tank/heal/dps model. Already respo red to your flashpoint issue. And they didn't really drift far. My Jedi can tank or dps. My friend's dps or heal, my trooper can dps or heal. Many classes have 2 role options that you can swap between...so for the most part any 4 players can indeed do instanced content. If they can't its the player's fault for failing to take advantage of what the options in front of them. I do however like how you ignore the fact that your whole argument about a tank class being a distraction is unrealistic being more than a little hyperbolic though. Instead you point to a comment open to interpretatkon that one could argue still holds true for the most part and to flashpoints that while doable with 4 dps is FAR easier with a standard group make up. Edited December 13, 2014 by Ghisallo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mleischer Posted December 13, 2014 Author Share Posted December 13, 2014 To sum up: "I'm DPS and I don't want to wait for people who tank or heal to queue so please cater to my inability to tank or heal myself." I guess that they need to eliminate snipers, gunslingers, marauders and sentinels since they have no place in the game per your logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 (edited) Funny that the last 9 flashpoints were designed to work as tacticals proving my point. And mine, too. Or did you conveniently overlook the HM versions of those same flashpoints? Because it doesn't forward your "point"? Edited December 13, 2014 by Khevar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grayseven Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 I guess that they need to eliminate snipers, gunslingers, marauders and sentinels since they have no place in the game per your logic. They have a place. Just not the only place as per the OP stance on eliminating tanks and healers. Your use of the word "logic" in an illogical argument inferring something completely different than what was said in order to try to make your own illogical stance look somehow valid proves that you haven't got a freakin' clue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghisallo Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 I guess that they need to eliminate snipers, gunslingers, marauders and sentinels since they have no place in the game per your logic. No...BUT you had a CHOICE. I am not big on tanking but on my Consular I rolled Shadow. This means that I either dps and wait for a queue or dual gear and learn to do something I am iffy on for fast queues. I chose to largely wait. I chose Sentine on my Knight. Why because I dug DW lightsabers. I know that means I am locked in on dps. I made a choice. On my trooper since I like healing as much as dps I chose commando, even though I would rather use a rifle than a cannon. I made these choices knowing the ground rules. You made yours knowing the ground rules. We live with our choices. It is simply childish to go to a place where you know in advance the rules won't suit your decision making process, to only then complain about the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MysteryJoker Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 So... you're saying turning everything into "Tactical" mode? Well, firstly, stop calling it tactical mode. There's nothing tactical about it and is so brain dead easy that I'm sure the participants enjoying, such as yourself, haven't a clue what the definition of tactics is. Secondly, there is ZERO challenge in this. It's basically a quest that allows a player to click one button and win. That's what the solo mode is for if players want to feel like they've accomplished something for very little gain. Thirdly... your suggestion is literally to devoid anything in a flashpoint that would remotely resemble a challenging and rewarding experience. For what purpose exactly though? So everyone can have a miserable and boring runthrough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howieloader Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 They have a place. Just not the only place as per the OP stance on eliminating tanks and healers. Your use of the word "logic" in an illogical argument inferring something completely different than what was said in order to try to make your own illogical stance look somehow valid proves that you haven't got a freakin' clue. *Boom* Headshot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sindariel Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Funny that the last 9 flashpoints were designed to work as tacticals proving my point. And now remove all those convenient healing stations in the tactical FPs and look how far you'll come with DPS only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghisallo Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 And now remove all those convenient healing stations in the tactical FPs and look how far you'll come with DPS only. Forgot about those tbh...since usually peeps want me to heal we don't use em. That said, to another poster...exactly. There is nothing tactical about content doable without the trinity in almost any random generated group game I have ever played. Tactics require people to be operating from the same play book, and communicating. Thing is the people who, usually, whine about the trinity are people who constantly solo queue and have no interest in doing either. The prime example in PvP is the complaints about premades...the minute people actually do use tactics and coordination the people I am referencing lose their freaking minds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fractal_Eye Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 And now remove all those convenient healing stations in the tactical FPs and look how far you'll come with DPS only. Awww, beat me to it, lol. I was just going to suggest trying to do Depths of Manaan (or, really, any of the Tactical FPs) as 4 DPS without using any of the Kolto stations or barrels, and see how far the group would get (especially on the bosses). As far as people wanting to remove the trinity, no no no, please! I <3 my Shadow Tank too much to regulate her to simply DPS. That's what I have my Mandos and Mercs for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 God between that and how boring KDY is , I want to just curl up and go to sleep . I think that's why we have not seen another KDY and probably never will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diefenbaker Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 In the Star Wars universe healers further make little sense. Look at how they heal in game and what they use. Then look at Star Wars canon, or what used to be canon before Lucas and Disney went completely loony. But you get an A for effort I guess. That's a thing, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsillah Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 If you want a system without roles you can play GW2 where everybody wears the same armour mods and all classes are essentially the same and therefore completely pointless. I find that entirely uninspiring and boring. It's one of the main reasons I quit that game because classes have no definition in such a system. All classes there have a range of support and dps abilities and all classes can be ranged or melee range. How did the solve the lack of tanks and actual healers? Dodge for all classes and unlimited combat resses and the use of those two abilities that all classes have makes you win or lose boss fights basically. Yawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallorik Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 I wouldn't mind seeing a system different from the same old trinity we have been using since the dawn of time. But so far nobody has come up with a system that is better. And Bioware is not high on my list of companies I think could come up with a successful alternative to the trinity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallorik Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 So... you're saying turning everything into "Tactical" mode? Well, firstly, stop calling it tactical mode. There's nothing tactical about it and is so brain dead easy that I'm sure the participants enjoying, such as yourself, haven't a clue what the definition of tactics is. Secondly, there is ZERO challenge in this. It's basically a quest that allows a player to click one button and win. That's what the solo mode is for if players want to feel like they've accomplished something for very little gain. Thirdly... your suggestion is literally to devoid anything in a flashpoint that would remotely resemble a challenging and rewarding experience. For what purpose exactly though? So everyone can have a miserable and boring runthrough? It is pretty funny that the mode they call "TACTICAL" requires less tactics than any other mode in the game, including leveling solo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cox_The_Beast Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 No, Just no. Please. Half of the fun in this game is to choose how to specialize your character, making it a sturdy defender of the team, a nimble backstabber or a long range healer, depending on what hte class allows... Tactical FPs are possibly the most boring kind of content I experimented since I started playing - F2P launch day - and tbh I'd much rather wait in queue for a HM or whatever else, rather than have a quick GF pop for a Tactical FP. I only run them because they still beat dailies and I need the Comms to gear up, now, but half of hte times I'm forced to explore my limits in ways not even Operations manage to make me... And that's not how they should work, I hope. Also... Tactical? They should have called them Mindless FPs. Operations are Tactical. Either you focus on hte only way to defeat the boss, or you die. There you need Tactics. "Tactical" FPs don't use tactics. All you do is jump in, smash everything that moves, rest. Rinse and repeat. Only exception is bosses, but again, with the Healing Stations you don't even need to follow mechanics, you can just spam those ad infinitum on CD... So no, OP, just No. The role trinity of Tank, DPS and Healer is possibly the best way to make Group Content be fun, because zerging around like a crazy boar of sort is not what we all want. I for one prefer to think before doing. And I do that. You wonder which roles I stick to? All of them. I Tank, Heal AND DPS, on different characters, of course, but I still manage pretty well. And I do that to have fun. Shooting or stabbing stuff on every class, all day long, without even thinking... Now that would be boring... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 It is pretty funny that the mode they call "TACTICAL" requires less tactics than any other mode in the game, including leveling solo. Kind of like how BT/Ess "social" runs are anything but? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallorik Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 (edited) Really? When in development, they said any four characters could fight an instanced battle then quietly abandoned this in favor of making a poor WoW clone. Now they have tacticals, which have proven popular by specifically being designed to ignore your precious trinity. This game is changing and I believe does well by focusing on the tactical concept and ignoring the hard mode tank/heal/dps model. In development They had a different system but it was still trinity based and nothing like the moron mode that is "tactical mode" They had main tanks (troopers) and off tanks (jedi), main healers (consular) and off heals (smugglers) Mt for tanking bosses, off tanks for tanking/killing adds. mh for healing and off heals for healing and dps. It was technically not possible for bioware. Theres 2 main purposes for the trinity system. #1) It makes the encounters easier to design. #2) It lowers the requirement of quality players, if they made tacticals challenging then you would need 4 good players to do anything. Edited December 13, 2014 by Mallorik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghisallo Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Look at how they heal in game and what they use. Then look at Star Wars canon, or what used to be canon before Lucas and Disney went completely loony. But you get an A for effort I guess. That's a thing, right? Heck forget what is or is not Canon. Combat Medic was NOT a term created by Bioware for this game. Now yeah the doc in my old unit couldn't rez us from the dead, but they could stabilize us if it was really bad and even get us back into something resembling fighting shape if it wasn't horrible. I could actually see, with tech as advanced as the Star Wars Universe, combat medicine not to different than what we see in game (short of resurrection...dead would likely still be dead.) That reminds me. Would the OP be cool with perma death. We can argue for realism in a fantasy game I guess but without Perma Death it will never be realistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelersWay Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 I never understood why tanks exist in games other than every other game has them. In the Star Wars universe healers further make little sense. Other than lazy game mechanics, why can we not make everything damage based? This would make for a more realistic land of make-believe and speed up the game. No thanks. I like the Trinity. I have also played games without the Trinity. They have problems of their own because of such. Nothing wrong with the Trinity, nor many of the other "old-fashioned" MMO tropes. They are fun and have their place today and into the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallorik Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 What people should be asking for is an expanded trinity, Eq1 old timers know what im talking about. The Crowd control and buffing roles added a lot to game play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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