Ops leaders changing loot rules mid-fight

[TUXs]

Wow.. project much? You got a huge button right there TUXS.

 

Where did I ever say that we don't matter? That guests don't matter? Please.. show me a quote where I said that.

 

I don't know about you.. but in my house.. guests DO matter. That said.. they are still my guests. They don't dictate the rules or policy of my home and they don't throw temper tantrums and outbursts an expect to remain guests in my home.

 

Let me say one more time: KNOW YOUR BOUNDARIES.

I take issue with you calling me a "guest" when I'm paying for a service. I'm not a guest Andryah.

 

Why are you talking about your house like it matters?! Do what you like in your home...but that's 100% irrelevant to this conversation.

 

Boundaries? Explain that...are you suggesting that I'm not allowed to voice MY opinion, but you're free to voice YOURS??

[hadoken]

Oh look, taking things out of context and reaching false conclusions also showed up!

 

Yes, Bioware SHOULD prevent people from behaving badly.

This is something they CURRENTLY think is used the proper way.

Unless we give them feedback and real reasons as to why that is not the case, they will not change it.

And regardless of what they end up doing, there are always the best protection measures of all - and hey, you don't even need Bioware for either of those:

1. don't group with pugs that you don't know and

2. don't do unto others what you don't want others do unto you.

 

Right and you have yet to do any of that so far in this thread. At any rate, it's pretty clear how the system can be abused. I'm not sure BioWare needs an illustration but then again...perhaps they do.

[MillionsKNives]

You cant prove anything. So stop harassing me and stop forcing your opinions on others.

 

Thanks have a nice day.

 

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. You claim that because they closed the thread that they don't care. Provide proof or your claim is invalid.

[AlienEyeTX]

I would like it if you stop referring to paying customers as guests.

 

Sure you can call the free players guests, because they can put no money into this game...but dont call subscribers guests.

 

And your analogy of comparing a company to your actual home is beyond ridiculous Andryah... do your guests pay you to let them in your home? no they don't.

 

Agreed. We are not guests. We are customers. We have a voice. We do not dictate, but we should certainly have a say.

[Andryah]

Why are you talking about your house like it matters?! Do what you like in your home...but that's 100% irrelevant to this conversation.

 

To give you context of what I mean when I use the term "guest". You know..to overcome miscommunication and foster understanding between us.

 

Sorry you do not appreciate the effort, nor understand it.

[Kilora]

Absolutely agree.

 

See, I don't feel that demanding something is inappropriate though. Depending on how the demands are made.

 

In the first few months of this game -- the playerbase demanded more content, and BW did not comply. No one did anything wrong -- but by "demanding" it, I felt the players were showing BW how serious they were. And then a large number of players quit.

 

Now, making threads for attention are different. I would never type something up openly in this forum stating "Do X or I will Y" -- because that isn't a demand, or a request, or even constructive criticism. It is an ultimatum, a threat -- and is never answered or given much weight by BW.

[Ayelinna]

To give you context of what I mean when I use the term "guest". You know..to overcome miscommunication and foster understanding between us.

 

Sorry you do not appreciate the effort, nor understand it.

 

Well like i said, do your guests pay you to enter your home?

[Andryah]

Agreed. We are not guests. We are customers. We have a voice. We do not dictate, but we should certainly have a say.

 

Definition of GUEST

 

a : a person entertained in one's house

 

b : a person to whom hospitality is extended

 

c : a person who pays for the services of an establishment (as a hotel or restaurant)

 

Source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/guest

 

All relevant definitions of what the term used means. Some of you need to go back to school IMO. You are making forum war attempt over "synonyms".

 

I find it hilarious that the over the top emotional reactions to the term "guest" are coming from adults.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Andryah

[TheNahash]

Right and you have yet to do any of that so far in this thread. At any rate, it's pretty clear how the system can be abused. I'm not sure BioWare needs an illustration but then again...perhaps they do.

 

And I assume your posts about another thread being closed, volatile opinions and excuses of roleplaying a jerk were your feedback?

 

I agree, though. It is pretty clear how the system can be abused. What we don't know, however, is why Bioware decided to allow it in the first place. And since they've stated it's not a bug or an exploit, there must be a reason for it. So until we know why they did it, we don't know the whole story nor can we accuse them of giving free passes to jerks (as if they needed them).

Edited July 23, 2013 by TheNahash

[Callaron]

People don't turn to a'holes overnight, you know.

Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you will do it.

You already can be a ninja in the game: run a FP and Need on everything. A few people do it and they get shunned by the community. So they either change their behavior or leave because they eventually make their way into everyone's ignore list.

Personally, I've never needed on anything that was not for my class and spec. If I wanted something, I first checked to see if the other players were fine with it.

 

I don't think BW saying it's not a bug or an exploit, will suddenly make me want to need on everything.

 

 

I'm not saying it'll change nice players overnight, and turn them into greedy monsters.

What I meant was that those who are tempted to do it may now be moved to actually do it "Since the devs said it's part of the game".

[TUXs]

To give you context of what I mean when I use the term "guest". You know..to overcome miscommunication and foster understanding between us.

 

Sorry you do not appreciate the effort, nor understand it.

 

Why not just stick to the topic? Why must you derail this? Again, the term "guest" has absolutely no relevance in this debate.

[ObiJuanShenobi]

I don't know about you.. but in my house.. guests DO matter. That said.. they are still my guests. They don't dictate the rules or policy of my home and they don't throw temper tantrums and outbursts and expect to remain guests in my home..... even if they brought the wine and paid for the dinner.

 

These guests that visit your house don't come over to pay your mortgage though. So your analogy doesn't really work.

 

We aren't guests, we are customers. We are why the game hasn't failed. We pay BW's bills.

[Kilora]

Agreed. We are not guests. We are customers. We have a voice. We do not dictate, but we should certainly have a say.

 

I don't think the two terms are mutually exclusive. Both are important to use, really.

 

We're "paying guests" maybe?

 

Just as in a hotel, we have an expectation and will complain if it isn't met.

 

Just as in a hotel, the management has an expectation of us -- and we will be removed if we don't follow the rules.

[AlienEyeTX]

I'm a little tired of people pulling out dictionary definitions. Can we stick to common sense, please?

 

Oh, right... didn't think so.

 

I would be a guest at BW's offices. I am not a guest in the game environment. And I don't give a flip what Miriam-Webster has to say about it.

[Andryah]

Why not just stick to the topic? Why must you derail this?

 

I made a comment, in context and on topic. You and several others attacked my choice of a word..thus derailing the topic. I responded.. because I do not allow such silliness to go unanswered in most cases.

 

Again, the term "guest" has absolutely no relevance in this debate.

 

Merriam Webster disagrees with you. Actually the term guest is more appropriate then customer according to Merriam Webster, because it carries a wider range of meaning where "consideration" to the party is given.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Andryah

[TUXs]

CUSTOMER

1: one that purchases a commodity or service

 

As a "customer", I think the loot rules need to be changed so that once combat has begun, they can no longer be changed.

[ObiJuanShenobi]

I don't think the two terms are mutually exclusive. Both are important to use, really.

 

We're "paying guests" maybe?

 

Just as in a hotel, we have an expectation and will complain if it isn't met.

 

Just as in a hotel, the management has an expectation of us -- and we will be removed if we don't follow the rules.

 

Also known as "paying customers"

[hadoken]

And I assume your posts about another thread being closed, volatile opinions and excuses of roleplaying a jerk were your feedback?

 

It was more a warning how this thread would go, and sure enough we now have people trying to define the word 'guest' as if any of that is relevant

 

I agree, though. It is pretty clear how the system can be abused. What we don't know, however, is why Bioware decided to allow it in the first place. And since they've stated it's not a bug or an exploit, there must be a reason for it. So until we know why they did it, we don't know the whole story nor can we accuse them of giving free passes to jerks (as if they needed them).

 

I think it's just an oversight and they either luckily don't receive many complaints from their CS people or are just ignoring them about the pitfalls with it. Certainly from the amount of shock I've seen from people such as myself about how it's designed, it's not something that's abused regularly at least. Guess there is that to be thankful for.

[MillionsKNives]

Why not just stick to the topic? Why must you derail this? Again, the term "guest" has absolutely no relevance in this debate.

 

Who's the one derailing over the use of a word again?

 

BULL ****!!!! I'm no flipping "guest" Andryah - I'm a customer! Stop acting like we don't matter, we all do. Individually, they don't have to give a crap what we think...collectively, we actually DO matter. Stop trivializing what it means to have customers.

[ObiJuanShenobi]

CUSTOMER

1: one that purchases a commodity or service

 

As a "customer", I think the loot rules need to be changed so that once combat has begun, they can no longer be changed.

 

Point made. Cross your fingers that we don't get 2 more pages of dissection of 'customer'.

[Benfynyn]

CUSTOMER

1: one that purchases a commodity or service

 

As a "customer", I think the loot rules need to be changed so that once combat has begun, they can no longer be changed.

 

/signed

 

I had no idea this wasn't the case until these posts started showing up. This needs to be directly addressed by BW/EA. If nothing else they should discuss the reasoning for allowing it.

[AlienEyeTX]

I don't think the two terms are mutually exclusive. Both are important to use, really.

 

We're "paying guests" maybe?

 

Just as in a hotel, we have an expectation and will complain if it isn't met.

 

Just as in a hotel, the management has an expectation of us -- and we will be removed if we don't follow the rules.

 

In the hospitality industry, guest is a nice term for customer. It makes the customers feel more comfortable. Following this line of thought, we are users or gamers. This business is not about hospitality, unless you are at a trade show.

[chuuuuucky]

This is worthy of discussion... setting aside bias and passions.

 

I would venture to say, a large majority of leaders are both fair and equitable, some even self-sacrificing...even in the PUG aspects of the game.

 

Jackwagonry is probably a 1-2% problem in the group leader population at worst.

 

So.. if we accept this to be a logical statement... do we expect (not like, but expect) an MMO company to design and constrain a games mechanics around the 1-2% problem? The reason I ask this is because in the old days of MMOs, the communities took care of the 1-2% problem, not the MMO developers.

 

Have we become so helpless and dependent on forced governance at all levels of existence that we need this level of policing?

 

Personally, I would be OK either way, even though I do see the logic of locking loot rules during a boss fight. That said, I can also see valid reasons to let a group leader switch rules in an encounter for any number of valid reasons within an OPs group of people that are known and trusted. Which is why I think the meta issue (trust) is worth discussing in the context of the game and group content.

 

So... do we insist on design for the trusted or do we insist on design for the mis-trusted? Has PUGing become so fundamental to MMO player mind set that we need it so tightly on rails that you can't sweak a fart out at your chair while playing the game?

 

Well this is not something that should be fixed for 1 or 2% of those that are jackwagons. It is for the 99 to 98% of people that could run into those 1 or 2% and have to experience this what i guess is something that makes a lot people angry and to some point think a bit more negative about the game as a whole.

In the earlier days of mmo it was more likely that you could never run something like a raid again if your name made it to the people on the server. The community was closer together as today. Here you start the OP with one of your 10 alts and before there will be noone left that will pug with you you can do this for a few months and destroy the fun for a lot of people.

If someone is doing this you go back to your guild teamspeak or close the game and only think what a f***ed up guy. No matter how fun the rest of the raid was.

However switching loot rules has it's valid points and is necessary to some extend for example to switch to loot master if someone is abusing the need button. But i see no need to switch it in a boss fight. Maybe with a vote function you could solve this. It is a mechanic already in game so shouldn't be a problem. If a whole guild acts that way and abuses the system it is easier to avoid the whole guild than a single player. Maybe you could add a boss reset after the vote so guilds changing the loot rules in their favour have the dissadvantage of loosing the random players that will leave if they notice that they get scammed.

To the question if we are so helpless. This game is designed to be a golden cage. You can't do anything that BW doesn't want you to do. So it doesn't support alot of self-initiative and thinking as BW originally build everything to be safe to use by everyone. Also in this game there is no such thinking established as in Eve. I know you play Eve so we both know the first rule. Trust noone. If something like this would be established as a basic rule for everybody in this game i would say yes this is your own fault. But because this is not the case and the game is not designed to let people experience such bad behaviour from other people i think it is clear why people can't help themselfes because there is nothing established to punish the people. They can stay next to you on fleet and you can do nothing but shouting out what they did to you on fleet. With bad luck you get banned for name calling. So as long as no dev writes what to do in this case you are helpless.

Edited July 23, 2013 by chuuuuucky

[TheBBP]

Please quote where i'm wrong with my opinions

 

oh wait its my opinion which means its not wrong and its not right

 

your points are invalid. thanks have a nice day also stop harassing me thanks

 

When does disagreement = harassment?

[TheNahash]

It was more a warning how this thread would go, and sure enough we now have people trying to define the word 'guest' as if any of that is relevant

 

Fair enough.

And on that note, I think we should try to define the word "bouillabaisse" next.

Not because it's as controversial as "guest" apparently is, but because I like the word bouillabaisse.

 

I think it's just an oversight and they either luckily don't receive many complaints from their CS people or are just ignoring them about the pitfalls with it. Certainly from the amount of shock I've seen from people such as myself about how it's designed, it's not something that's abused regularly at least. Guess there is that to be thankful for.

 

Agreed.