Lets talk about Disciplines

[Ryllynyth]

I'm here to tell you that you're disapproval of my criticisms is meaningless.

 

But you thinking them meaningless is meaningless itself since your initial criticisms were bad and meaningless.

[mokkh]

Which is exactly what the proc icons on your buff bar do. In this case, your criticism is illogical.

 

The proc icons that I have minimized so small that they aren't visible? I don't use proc icons, period.

I'm a good player, I don't spend time staring at my hotbar. I know what's going to go off and when.

You've made assumptions about things that you don't have the information to make assumptions about.

 

I don't waste time with proc icons, so I made them so small that I don't have to see them. The big glowing spinning squares around 2 abilities that are triggering so much that they are very nearly always on, are useless because they are very nearly always on.

 

And if I make them shrink and go away, I no longer have a hotbar.

 

Maybe that will clear the logic up for you.

[mokkh]

But you thinking them meaningless is meaningless itself since your initial criticisms were bad and meaningless.

 

/golfclap

 

Nonsense much? The thread was about feedback on disciplines. I gave mine, not all of it was negative. You and a few others have decided that the game is better served if you turn your attention on me.

 

You also just stated that as a paying customer my feelings over the product I pay for are meaningless on the very same forums that the devs look to for player feedback.

 

I haven't had this many additions to my ignore list since pre-launch of the game.

[LordArtemis]

I do think they could give us a few more utility points. I think the amount offered is a bit light for some classes.

 

But the current setup, though I lament the loss of some abilities, the changes to others, is pretty good and reasonably efficient IMO.

 

There are a few odd changes....requiring cover to cast FF/OS as one example, yet most expected cover shots are now free standing.

 

I still think the cover mechanic should boost damage, or that should be a utility choice (perhaps it is and I was too much of an idiot to notice).

 

At any rate, overall I am not upset over the system...not overjoyed mind you, but I can live with it.

[MaximusRex]

This thread is pretty pointless, you just can't convince people that a lot of meaningless choices aren't better then a few meaningful ones, or that having to think about what choices are best for a fight isn't "dumbing down the game" compared to being able to Google the must have points.

 

Bads are always going to prefer easy to choose and lots of "MOAR POWA" buttons over fewer less obvious choices.

[LordArtemis]

I don't think a conversation about disciplines is pointless. But I think that conversation should include player advice on restoring class functionality, perhaps some suggestions of tweeks, ability change concerns, the entire span.

 

There is a healthy conversation to be had IMO. There is always room for improvement, and the current system is FAR from perfect.

[kongol]

You still don't get it.

 

And please don't be one of "those people" that picks apart the post and analyzes and gets defensive on every one of the sentences just to get your point across.

 

So in other words its great but you have no response other than ITS great and will be better but i dont know how LOL trolls

[agamemnon-]

The proc icons that I have minimized so small that they aren't visible? I don't use proc icons, period.

I'm a good player, I don't spend time staring at my hotbar. I know what's going to go off and when.

You've made assumptions about things that you don't have the information to make assumptions about.

 

I don't waste time with proc icons, so I made them so small that I don't have to see them. The big glowing spinning squares around 2 abilities that are triggering so much that they are very nearly always on, are useless because they are very nearly always on.

 

And if I make them shrink and go away, I no longer have a hotbar.

 

Maybe that will clear the logic up for you.

 

 

So what you are saying is you just mash random buttons and hope for the best. That's the only way to play without proc icons, as not every ability has an audio or visual ques and a lot of abilities are reliant on RNG to proc.

 

So in this instance, video or it didn't happen.

[mokkh]

So what you are saying is you just mash random buttons and hope for the best. That's the only way to play without proc icons, as not every ability has an audio or visual ques and a lot of abilities are reliant on RNG to proc.

 

So in this instance, video or it didn't happen.

 

What? Do you even know what two abilities I'm referring to?

 

Snipe and Ambush.

 

Seriously, I don't need to be told when to hit snipe as a sniper.

 

Snipe-snipe-ambush does not require a video to prove to you that I'm not lying. Now, there is a useful utility point that I now use, the insta snipe after cover pulse so it goes take cover>insta-snipe>cover pulse> insta-snipe> ambush. Most lead ins are the now penetrating blasts>followthrough>sniper volley>penetrating blasts>insta-snipe>followthrough>cover pulse>insta-snipe>ambush>followthrough with corrosive dart thrown in the mix somewhere. Snipe isn't triggered, it doesn't even have a cd other than the gcd.

 

I don't mash random buttons, my keys are very specifically mapped out. I now have two holes in my set up on both my standing and cover bar due to the removal of explosive probe and the obsolescence of series of shots.

 

As incredulous as you may be, I'm even more so that you would doubt me.

Edited December 8, 2014 by mokkh

[Ryllynyth]

There is a healthy conversation to be had IMO.

 

This is true enough, but first we have to move past the "BW BRING BACK SKILL TREES!!!1!" hissy fits before an actual dialog has a chance of happening.

[Max_Killjoy]

I would think that a dialogue would require understanding what it is about the old system they found so much better than the new system -- which puts the complementary onus on them to explain that in rational terms.

[Ryllynyth]

I would think that a dialogue would require understanding what it is about the old system they found so much better than the new system -- which puts the complementary onus on them to explain that in rational terms.

 

That's... What I just said? They need to get the hissy fits out of their systems, and then when they've calmed down a bit and are willing to actually talk about it maybe then we can have a dialog.

 

Unless you weren't replying to my last post, in which case ignore this one.

[Max_Killjoy]

That's... What I just said? They need to get the hissy fits out of their systems, and then when they've calmed down a bit and are willing to actually talk about it maybe then we can have a dialog.

 

Unless you weren't replying to my last post, in which case ignore this one.

 

 

To me, referring to the complaints as "hissy fits" does not seem to be conducive to dialogue.

[Morrolan]

It's tacky... the game is telling me what button to push and when to push it.

 

No its not, its giving you more info about an ability, you still make the choice about whether the situation requires it to be used. Some procs are rng based so its not certain whether they have come up or not.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Morrolan

[Ryllynyth]

To me, referring to the complaints as "hissy fits" does not seem to be conducive to dialogue.

 

What else would you call them? They're a lot closer to tantrums than they are to anything constructive.

 

Until people stop asking for skill trees back there's no real way to have a dialog anyway, since skills trees are definitely not coming back.

[kongol]

What else would you call them? They're a lot closer to tantrums than they are to anything constructive.

 

Until people stop asking for skill trees back there's no real way to have a dialog anyway, since skills trees are definitely not coming back.

 

True but the utility lovers only comment to say Well its better.... And it is for PvP...

Edited December 8, 2014 by kongol

[Max_Killjoy]

What else would you call them? They're a lot closer to tantrums than they are to anything constructive.

 

Until people stop asking for skill trees back there's no real way to have a dialog anyway, since skills trees are definitely not coming back.

 

My point is, if you really do want a dialogue, then whatever you think of the complaints, you can't call them "hissy fits", no matter how much you'd like to.

 

When someone says they want the old trees back, you're going to have to ask why, and put the onus on them to back down from the incendiary rhetoric.

[StrangeDais]

Let's be objective, the hissyfits as you call it are on both sides. I've read some fairly mindless defensive posts in support of the new system. Everything from being stupid and not "getting it", to being whiny and a malcontent. Critique of a product or service you're paying for is a means by which things are improved. Discourse is not a negative.

 

I feel its also worth noting that people are critical precisely because they DO love the game. This isn't a case of so and so ragging on your game and thereby insulting your taste. As stated prior, my concerns are over a perceived reduction in choice and simplification of game mechanics. This goes beyond just the skill system as I've commented on elsewhere, but no where have I demanded that the skill tree be brought back.

 

Perhaps a few more utilties incorporated into the new system might help temper some of the backlash.

 

Be that as it may, if the revised skill system was done so as to lessen internal resources being spent on balance issues and allow for more and better quality content, fair enough. It's just unfortunate that it was done at the expense of a segment of the playerbase imho.

[Ryllynyth]

True but the utility lovers only comment to say Well its better.... And it is for PvP...

 

Nope. Several people have typed out effort posts on why it's a good change, and all that results in is people ignoring them to spew out the same one-line sound bytes (like 'oh it's for PvP').

[Sarfux]

Sure I know... the arrogant, insulting, orange BS writing wannabe-wise-as that is unable to explain anything due to lack of whatever, intead repeating a dull "u no undastand"-phrase...

 

There is absolutely no need for such remarks as I have done nothing to you sir. Thank you.

[laiboch]

I guess I will throw my 2 creds in here... Now that I pre ordered 3.0 and have had the privilege of paying in advance to be in the first week of open beta, and that's exactly what this has been. Beta testing. Might I suggest in the future that you actually bring in larger groups of random players to test your content. When huge bugs like the Revan fight making it through to "release" early or otherwise either the Dev's, testers or both epically failed. I mean really... It's the climax to the whole expansion and its broken 16 ways to Sunday.

 

The good, the bad and the ugly...

 

While I understand why they removed skill tree's to help deal with balance issues the result was less than impressive...

 

The planets added in the expansion are very well done. Honestly some of the best work I have seen come out of the SWTOR Bioware group in a very long time.

 

The solo flashpoints are also awesome, and that idea should be expanded. With perhaps a bit of a reduction on the combat support droids damage.. Its kinda sad when some of my cast abilities take longer to go off than it takes this droid to kill off the mob I was trying to attack...

 

There are features in the new system I do like. The way you get key abilities earlier is a good idea. Combining some skills that were fairly redundant was also a good idea. Acid blade is a good example of this as is back stab/hidden strike, but please do not try and pretend that the "Utility abilities" in any way give people "More options" they are a eh that's nifty side note to the skill vine. While I understand there were lots of issues with the skill tree system, and that you (Bioware) had a really hard time trying to balance full tree builds and hybrids. Giving players a list of really over all useless "Utility skills" and buffing abilities that no one would use was not an improvement.

 

The utility "Imperial weaponry" is a great example of a useless utility skill. Carbine burst deals 25% more damage... Why? Why would I waste a tactical advantage I could use on a skill that hits harder? If I need some AOE damage ill throw a grenade.

 

Here is a prime example.. backstab/hidden strike now requires that you take a HEROIC utility for it to stun a target like it use to do, and the Assassin skill spike still has its "stun" with out having to spec into it at all. This is simply one example of the many imbalances that are currently in the new system.

 

 

Many of the new animations for skills are also very well done. Others you can just kind of see that the animator was far more interested in their social media that day. Can we say mag shot? "We didn't want to just recycle a bounty hunter animation (so instead we recycled a gunslinger animation that looks really really stupid) for mag shot". So the over all damage etc is better on it so I will have to use Who's your daddy er I mean mag shot, but the animation on that and several of the other abilities just make me wonder who hired Jar Jar Binks and put them in charge of the new combat animations.

 

The bad...

I have no idea who is really in charge of "class balancing" but I really think they should probably not be in charge of it any more. Or really in charge of anything more complicated than asking people "do you want to super-size that combo sir?"

 

Class balance in this expansion is by far the worst I have seen since I started playing in early release. This thing they kept saying about damage reduction and better balance stream after stream is just lulz. Healers are now even more broken. Some DPS classes are just hell on wheels and others are not even worth targeting till you kill everyone else there.

 

Heavy armor classes with solid defensive cool downs should not deal more damage that "glass cannon" classes, but here in 3.0 PT's/Vanguards and Jug/Guardians are just that. They deal out as much damage as merc/commando or sent/mara with far far more survivability than either of those classes.

 

The really sad thing is most of these issues are nothing new. They have been going on since launch. They have still not been resolved.

[mokkh]

Let's be objective, the hissyfits as you call it are on both sides. I've read some fairly mindless defensive posts in support of the new system. Everything from being stupid and not "getting it", to being whiny and a malcontent. Critique of a product or service you're paying for is a means by which things are improved. Discourse is not a negative.

 

I feel its also worth noting that people are critical precisely because they DO love the game. This isn't a case of so and so ragging on your game and thereby insulting your taste. As stated prior, my concerns are over a perceived reduction in choice and simplification of game mechanics. This goes beyond just the skill system as I've commented on elsewhere, but no where have I demanded that the skill tree be brought back.

 

Perhaps a few more utilties incorporated into the new system might help temper some of the backlash.

 

Be that as it may, if the revised skill system was done so as to lessen internal resources being spent on balance issues and allow for more and better quality content, fair enough. It's just unfortunate that it was done at the expense of a segment of the playerbase imho.

 

Well said, agree on all points. I could care less about skill trees, they are a leftover WoW system that should be buried. But for people to think that somehow the removal of the "illusion of choice" condones an actual removal of choice is a problem. I have 7 utility points to choose from, out of those 7 I have one actual utility that I didn't already skip over when those same abilities were in tree form. They didn't give me new options, they just took old options from each tree and allowed me to pick from the ones that I already wasn't using or had been forced to use to get a skill higher up the tree.

 

Diversion is a prime example, it used to be an ability that I would never spend a point on to get because it is pretty much useless for my gameplay. It is now auto-granted as a signature class ability, and that pretty much sucks for a casual-core raider like myself.

 

They also streamlined shatter shot and series of shots, and that 's awesome. Seriously, I no longer have to care about applying a debuff and then going through my rotation. A debuff will be constantly applied as I fight. However, the two abilities they merged are still forced on me and are now totally useless. They removed cross abilities like explosive probe that I actually enjoyed using depending on the situation.

 

In other words, it's not so much that I have a problem with the discipline system being in place, it's how they did it that I have a problem with. All utility points for my sniper are basically defensive or reductions in cc cds. Yes damage is on par if not higher than before, of course I'm 5 levels higher now so that may be moot. But in my opinion the gameplay has been trivialized in the process. I am open-minded enough to say that I won't be able to pass full judgment until I take the remaining 12 of my 55s to 60.

 

When I started this game I was coming from EQ1. I played an sk, when they announced the shadow class I was like... hell yeah. But when I got the weekend beta invite in late fall of '11 I didn't want to play the shadow until after launch for story continuity. So I made a mm sniper, and it has been my favorite one to play ever since. I bring these things up because I care about the game; a lot more than I should.

 

If any of the people in this thread who wasted the energy to hit their keyboard in an effort to attack my character ever played alongside me or had the stones to contact me in game then they would change their tune.

 

As it is, this thread has become default juvenile internet trash talk and its unfortunate.

I'm disappointed but not surprised.

Edited December 8, 2014 by mokkh

[Tune]

I'm glad to see so many new replys to my post. Most are actualy good replys, but ofc, a few are from ppl that get tired when need to use the brains. I guess thats why they like this system, less need to use the brains, they get less tired.

 

Apart from playing this, i like to study psicology, body-language and human behavior, and i consider my selfe inteligent enough.

My point is, when i read your reply, i learn something about you, and about your mentality and your personality and inteligence.

 

I much more prefer being able to switch roles without having to put all the skill points in the right places again.

 

In this case, what i see is someone without a real reason to like the disciplines system, when all he/she wanted was one thing i asked in one of my sugestions posts, and that is a "spec saver".

In other words, you say you prefer this system coz gives you less work... when that was never the idea behind it...

 

 

Choice is fun, it affords replayability. By choosing a path of declining player agency (removal of hybrids), the resultant effect is now a more generic, dumbed down player experience. Experimenting with hybrid toons was fun and yes, I'm well aware said characters weren't going to be as uber as they could be. But that was never the point.

 

Exactly, now this is someone who sees what was lost, and is not trolling or trying to be too negative.

 

Players that enjoy hybrid specs, dont do it to try be OP, they just want to find a more enjoyable play style.

[Tune]

The Utility system provides more opportunity for meaningful customization than the skill tree EVER did.

 

Now, this is someone who has hard time using the brain and creating his own ideas.

 

Most ppl like me, we come here, we say we dont like the disciplines system, and we explain why. We actualy give examples of the why is worst then before. So, here it goes again some examples, even if you read it before, guess you forgot after a few pages. My main is a JK Guardian:

7 instead of 51 is bad for me coz - i like to make my own choices.

you say more oportunity? we got 1 tree to chose abilities, instead of 3, how is that more? not only 7 is less then 51, but 1 is also less then 3. Is funny how many ppl look at this numbers and they say is more. I guess maths are not easy for you.

you say more meaningfull - there is 0 utility that actualy increases my dmg, so i can go dps in ops with 0 point spend and do same dmg, what that means to you?

Vigilance tree, get plasma brand before overhead shash, when overhead slash is better for lower lvls, so i fail to see the logic in this.

Vigilance tree gets shien form at lvl41, instead of lvl20, and shien form is a huge boost in dps and play style, so i fail to see the improvement here.

 

now, you state your class, and give us examples of why you like this system more. Real examples, like i did.

 

dont say things like "this is better coz i like it more", or "i like it more coz is better"...

[Tune]

1 - This thread is pretty pointless,

2 - compared to being able to Google the must have points.

 

3 - Bads are always going to prefer easy to choose and lots of "MOAR POWA" buttons over fewer less obvious choices.

 

1 - yet, you came and posted a reply here. what that makes you?

2 - i never used google to chose my spec, i always used my eyes to read, and my brains to chose.

I even helped alot lvling players chosing a good lvling spec focused on questing, and they all were happy with it.

3 - so you say that 51 is more easy to chose then 7? as i stated before, at least for my JK guardian, there are 0 obvious choices for dps play style.

 

 

As everyone can see, this is another example, of someone who doesnt give actual examples why he thinks things are better or worst. He just talks, but doesnt say much.

 

I gave my actual examples in my JK Guardian. Now is your turn.