Why I'm no longer playing concealment/srapper

[zhezvya]

Scrapper in PVP is pretty sad right now. The class doesn't deal enough burst to be considered a glass cannon and it can't survive in a fight against most classes. You seriously need to be left alone to deal enough damage to kill most people.

 

The removal of underworld medicine and introduction of hots hurt big time. It kills our damage if we have to use 2 gcds to apply hots coming out of stealth.

 

Honestly I don't feel this class is viable for PVP when there are so many better options available.

 

When I first came to play SWTOR I had little experience in MMO"s and as a fan of original KOTOR I've chosen a force-using class as my first character to play. After first 10-15 WZs the sound of blade/shotgun together with sadistic laugh or ironic giggle were my worst nightmares, because my poor inexperienced shadow was dying too often after hearing them:) At the same time I was intrigued and amazed by the swiftness and lethality of this op/scoundrel class while opposing them, so I've created Scrapper to see how deadly you can be on this side. At that moment (it was patch 2.4 or so I believe) the class has suffered several nerfs already as I've read on forums here, and many players were speaking of losing fun and soul while playing the class.But still more or less there was one main thing you would have to get through to become scary in WZ- hours and hours of practice, constant tactics change and trying to be as fast as possible while using multiple key bindings and dancing around opponents. The class was offering great opportunities in exchange for lots of time you had to spend while learning to be deadly, it felt that I did a lot better with shadow in shorter period of time. I never became an elite player, but I did pretty good in helping my team to neutralize healers, take out guards at turrets or doors, and-the main thing- to drive opponent crazy when needed with this sudden crushing attacks. And I always felt great respect seeing other scrappers/concealment ops who brought great havoc on filed dropping people dead in seconds- I knew it took them time and patience to become that fast and lethal. IMO people whining about how overpowered ops and drells were never really tried to play them or didn't go far studying this class. Just a simple fact that loosing position and opener could cost you the whole fight(at some point I understood it while playing against ops and drells with my shadow) was fair enough to make your cannon the glass one.

I know that maybe it doesn't look bad on paper as folk says here, but it just doesn't feel as much fun , and this feeling of swift, deadly, but fragile killer is gone- it feels kind of numb now. My Scrapper is something very medium, neither raw nor well done. Can't say much about PVE- didn't do it a lot with this char after 3.0 came out.

 

Offtop: At least an army of depressed sins and shadows might like 3.0- so far so good both in PVP and PVE IMO.

[Adovir]

From my experience since 3.0 release is that conc and scrapper is good if always played perfectly. Dueling we are fine and in group fights with team work they're fine but with out they struggle. Set up is probably the hardest thig to master in this spec ATM because improper set up of skills will get you and your damage killed, timing rolls with high damage attacks or root breaks to roll away and such is key. This would be ok but the amount of planing that goes into each move doesn't fit in with the whole role of "stealth burst dps" and the fact that small mistakes will most likely cost you a fight is also a big turn off to what the class is supposed to be. That and the fact that our newly added defense of CS/SS is ok if the class doesn't have root breaks and would be perfect if they kept LoS at 180 not 270, I'll keep playing it though bc I love it but it does require alot

[Kaedusz]

you are all crazy

 

just the new awesome knife animations would be enough to anyone who loves the Operative to keep playing.

 

Also the opportunities for creativeness and high skill cap in regards to both escaping and bursting someone in key moments thanks to Crippling Slice is amazing.

''preventing it from moving or TURNING for 4 sec'' I drool every time i read that

Edited December 14, 2014 by Kaedusz

[Haystak]

you are all crazy

 

just the new awesome knife animations would be enough to anyone who loves the Operative to keep playing.

 

Also the opportunities for creativeness and high skill cap in regards to both escaping and bursting someone in key moments thanks to Crippling Slice is amazing.

''preventing it from moving or TURNING for 4 sec'' I drool every time i read that

 

It would be a lot better if their werent so many counterplays to it.

 

Hold The Line :Trooper/Vangaurds

Egress on forcespeed: Shadows/Sage

Imunity on enure: Gaurdians

 

That leaves sentinels, and Gunslingers. Not sure if you would ever need to root a gunslinger, so really the only people we can use it on regularly are sentinels, and....other scoundrels.

 

Scoundrel is a lot more fun, but against some classes it still has issues. I think the strategy in rateds is to go in defensive for the first part of the scrap, by rolling, and trying to get the derps to use their cooldowns, so you can come in later in the game to exploit your roots, and stuns. Problem is we are vulnerable to roots and stuns ourselves, which means we have to play really smart, and need a bit of luck to prevent the stun focus.

[JFoxstride]

I fail to see any advantage in the "no turning" aspect outside of PvE (where mobs turn perfectly, making it impossible to get a second back blast off). In PvP its really just another root... Rendered useless by the nigh-unlimited root immunities every class have.

[Adicya]

Concealment is still good , we have a very good operative in my server TOFN called Ripperx and he does some crazy dmg and he is very hard to beat.

[Kaedusz]

You guys are thinking too linear ,obviously you won't be using it mindlessly.That's why i said opportunities for creativeness.It also has lower cd than almost everyone else's root/stun immunity.And usually it will be used when you know their thing is on cd, it's all skill and pvp intuition based.

 

At the very least it's an opportunity to make them blow their immunity cd when you want, not when they want.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Kaedusz

[Fellow-Canadian]

It would be a lot better if their werent so many counterplays to it.

 

Hold The Line :Trooper/Vangaurds

Egress on forcespeed: Shadows/Sage

Imunity on enure: Gaurdians

 

Scrapper spec is a sage's worst nightmare. Pick up the tendon blast root utility and the threat dump root breaker utility and you're a sage killing machine. Just keep them in root lock and when they sprint away use roll to keep up. I constantly see sages blow every cooldown they have within the first 10-15 seconds because they try desperately to get away and die because they can't.

[Thaladan]

i really enjoy this spec now. it's an all around spec,

 

you have mobilty,self and support heal, decent dps, stealth. i find it very balanced, evn in arena where it's not so inefficient as expected.

 

not the best (a positive point for me) and fun to play. before 3.0, i found it boring and too specific.

Edited December 14, 2014 by Thaladan

[KyoMamoru]

Due to the positional lag we experience when playing the game vs mobs and other players, it is exceedingly hard to take advantage of standing behind someone after they've been immobilized. On your screen you'll be behind them, yet they'll still be hitting you. =/

[Thoop]

its in a better place for pvp then it is for high end raiding, especially where heavy aoe damage is required as we are now the only advanced class that brings zero aoe damage to the table

[Derzelaz]

Ok guys, I hit 60 on my operative, so what's the verdict ? Lethality or Concealment for PvP ?

[KyoMamoru]

its in a better place for pvp then it is for high end raiding, especially where heavy aoe damage is required as we are now the only advanced class that brings zero aoe damage to the table

 

You'll just end up being the guy who is going to be focusing the boss the entire time or the single add that is the trouble maker. My AoE is so laughable it actually brings down my DPS considerably.

[QuiveringPotato]

You'll just end up being the guy who is going to be focusing the boss the entire time or the single add that is the trouble maker. My AoE is so laughable it actually brings down my DPS considerably.

 

Yeah, I found that kind of hilarious. Virtually all other AOEs in the game are much improved... except for carbine burst. Even in Concealment with the bonuses you get from talents, and with the 25% damage utility, it still hits like crap, costs too much, and wastes a TA. Not to mention the difficulty of aiming. It's like flamethrower's aim cone, but instant, so you don't have time to readjust it for people moving, blegh.

[Tamanous]

Yeah, I found that kind of hilarious. Virtually all other AOEs in the game are much improved... except for carbine burst. Even in Concealment with the bonuses you get from talents, and with the 25% damage utility, it still hits like crap, costs too much, and wastes a TA. Not to mention the difficulty of aiming. It's like flamethrower's aim cone, but instant, so you don't have time to readjust it for people moving, blegh.

 

I'd like it's base damage raised slightly but that is about it for concealment spec. I often see 4k+ crits and well worth using for 3+ mobs but when it doesn't crit the damage is laughable. Barely does 1.5k when my lacerate hits for more than twice that base with 8-9k crits. REALLY is a downer.

 

I still use CB a lot when grinding trash for dailies but I always wait until one mob is near death to ensure a TA is returned for an other CB ... and PRAY it crits.

[ohiokid]

Concealment op went from being the most fun spec for me to play to the most boring one.........

 

Operative was my favorite toon prior to update. Dont like change in healing for concealment. No longer a fan in concealment, soloing pve sucks. Going to try and lvl to 60 with healing spec. I heard it was lacking as well. We will see.

 

Have not ran any instances yet because i got my agent to 56 and started lvling my other toons.

[Fallenturtle]

My main is an operative since pre launch, and I'm done with concealment til they get it fixed. Yes, there's people saying "oh the burst is still there" but against who lvl 30s who don't have resilience in regs?

 

It's survivability is also really laughable. You have to be able to roll to get the 1.5 second immunity to pop. If you can't roll thanks to all the roots, stuns, nets etc, that are currently in wz's (both reg and ranked) then you're stuck with...shield probe. It helps a little even with the talents, but with the damage output from the other classes right now, the probe pops and you still take 6-8k after the hit.

 

Concealment has always been the "hit and run spec" but everyone can do that now. PTs are hitting for 15k+ and have more mobility and survivability than us, Sorcs and assassins are hitting for 14-16k and have our maneuverability AND better heals... I'm only going to mention look at madness assassins and their dot mechanics and damage..

 

For now, I am sticking with lethality til bioware pulls their head out of their bums and takes a hard look at class balancing.. or do we need to put up the screen shots of pts pulling over 2 mil damage with a 15k hit, or assassins pulling 2k dps with a huge hit before they realize that either the pvp system needs changing(which I think it needs to) or that classes need to go back to the drawing board and told what niche they are suppose to fill..

[Saikochoro]

Concealment has much better survivability now. You can pick up evasive imperative which helps not only with roots and slows, but also all the dots being thrown around. You also can pick up evasion on cloaking screen. Sometimes I do die because I'm rooted and can't roll, but not often. Might not have as much survivability as a jugg or pt, nor as much burst as a pt, but it is in a much better place since update. I hit plenty hard. Not sure what sort of burst numbers you are wanting. But I'm pretty happy with mine. If they buff it that's cool. Won't complain, but concealment is still quite bursty. I've done fine in regs and the few rateds I've done since update. Only done about 15 rateds since I leveled up a new op and had to get it geared, but I've won 80% of the matches. Of course it always helps to have good teammates. A concealment op isn't going to carry the team. Edited December 26, 2014 by Saikochoro

[texoc]

My main is an operative since pre launch, and I'm done with concealment til they get it fixed. Yes, there's people saying "oh the burst is still there" but against who lvl 30s who don't have resilience in regs?

 

It's survivability is also really laughable. You have to be able to roll to get the 1.5 second immunity to pop. If you can't roll thanks to all the roots, stuns, nets etc, that are currently in wz's (both reg and ranked) then you're stuck with...shield probe. It helps a little even with the talents, but with the damage output from the other classes right now, the probe pops and you still take 6-8k after the hit.

 

Concealment has always been the "hit and run spec" but everyone can do that now. PTs are hitting for 15k+ and have more mobility and survivability than us, Sorcs and assassins are hitting for 14-16k and have our maneuverability AND better heals... I'm only going to mention look at madness assassins and their dot mechanics and damage..

 

For now, I am sticking with lethality til bioware pulls their head out of their bums and takes a hard look at class balancing.. or do we need to put up the screen shots of pts pulling over 2 mil damage with a 15k hit, or assassins pulling 2k dps with a huge hit before they realize that either the pvp system needs changing(which I think it needs to) or that classes need to go back to the drawing board and told what niche they are suppose to fill..

 

Sorcs and Assains dont hit for 14-16k... far from it.

Iam pulling 2k+ dps with concealment on a regular basis.

 

After 3.0 its a l2p issue if u cant manage to do well with Ops dps.

[Fellow-Canadian]

Sorcs and Assains dont hit for 14-16k... far from it.

Iam pulling 2k+ dps with concealment on a regular basis.

 

After 3.0 its a l2p issue if u cant manage to do well with Ops dps.

 

Do you have screenshots of playing concealment with 2k dps in PVP?

 

I have never come close in a warzone/arena and I have a full PVP set fully augmented already.

[FoE_Khorne]

Do you have screenshots of playing concealment with 2k dps in PVP?

 

I have never come close in a warzone/arena and I have a full PVP set fully augmented already.

 

Full length voidstar

http://tinypic.com/r/28b8rbn/8

 

A shorter voidstar

http://tinypic.com/r/2j3ia6t/8

 

Some arenas.

4s

http://tinypic.com/r/r22ewz/8

solo

http://tinypic.com/r/141kq9t/8

 

Plus a ton of 1600+ while being on the top of the list

[Fellow-Canadian]

Full length voidstar

http://tinypic.com/r/28b8rbn/8

 

A shorter voidstar

http://tinypic.com/r/2j3ia6t/8

 

Some arenas.

4s

http://tinypic.com/r/r22ewz/8

solo

http://tinypic.com/r/141kq9t/8

 

Plus a ton of 1600+ while being on the top of the list

 

Thank you for taking the time to post screenshots.

 

You've obviously done good, but I think I see why you could get near 2k dps - it looks your opponents are terrible. I've been in games like your first voidstar where it's complete domination and I always feel bad killing noobs who have no way to defend themselves.

 

I will assume awful undergeared opponents and healers keeping you up is what helped getting near 2k dps possible.

[Saikochoro]

Perhaps that is so. Honestly, I find I do less DPS when my opponents are terrible because they are often dead before I can get to them. Or I can only get off one hit before the rest of the team ganks them. Also match usually ends much faster with me having to run around searching for opponents who are still alive. The times I do the most DPS is when the other teams have good healers. I usually tunnel the healers so I usually achieve pretty high DPS because I stay on them the whole time.

[FoE_Khorne]

Thank you for taking the time to post screenshots.

 

You've obviously done good, but I think I see why you could get near 2k dps - it looks your opponents are terrible. I've been in games like your first voidstar where it's complete domination and I always feel bad killing noobs who have no way to defend themselves.

 

I will assume awful undergeared opponents and healers keeping you up is what helped getting near 2k dps possible.

 

Whatever makes you sleep at night bud. If you arent pulling 1600-1700+ on the reg, you are doing it wrong.

 

first game was 1 healer vs 4 healers. Noshadow and I were focusing firing off each other...

 

The 4's game was vs Pedrospicyweenr aka Mudclot, one of the top 3 dps sorcs in the game. (#1 in my mind, but people will argue for the hell of it) http://www.twitch.tv/mudclot Just saying

Edited December 28, 2014 by FoE_Khorne

[FoE_Khorne]

Perhaps that is so. Honestly, I find I do less DPS when my opponents are terrible because they are often dead before I can get to them. Or I can only get off one hit before the rest of the team ganks them. Also match usually ends much faster with me having to run around searching for opponents who are still alive. The times I do the most DPS is when the other teams have good healers. I usually tunnel the healers so I usually achieve pretty high DPS because I stay on them the whole time.

 

This... except healers still die unless they are getting peels from allies. The reason I posted voidstar screen is because even if we wipe them non-stop they spawn on top of us. On the other maps there is too much down time after team wipes. Im pretty sure i have a 1800 coast somewhere... and I know I saw someone from the EU severs post a screen of 2k dps on coast as well.