Operative healing *le sigh*

[oturak]

Could you post specific examples, like fights and phases ? Either it's a very specific fight i haven't done at all since the 3.0, or luckily i'll be able to provide a combat log with significant kolto waves uptime on the fight you're talking about.

[Rafkin]

Well, most recently the walkers in the new Temple raid. 2nd boss. Sword Unit 1 & 2 ... Sorry I'm at work.

 

The only time I "need" to heal multiple people is when we're all running from ground effects.

[oturak]

You're both right and wrong about that fight in my opinion.

 

First, i'll post my first parses on that ops, 8SM : http://imgur.com/a/Wa7LR . It was the night I dinged 60, no precise knowledge about the new rotation (didn't even know that emergency medpack gave a healing bonus), so I was not doing that great. Gear was a mix of optimized 180 and 186. 180 main hand, 186 second hand.

 

As you can see, I did 4675 HPS (2943 EHPS) on the Sword Squadron Unit. I used Kolto Waves 15 times, meaning every 20 seconds average.

 

First, was it necessary ? Nope, could have done the entire fight without it. You can see that I overhealed quite a bit.

 

Secondly, was it impossible to use ? The only time you have to move in that fight is when you're personnaly targeted by a "Ground Burst Missile" , and perhaps if you got the "Huge grenade". You can stay static for all the rest of the fight. Lets say you're very unlucky, and get targeted every time. Since "Ground Burst Missile" happen every 8 seconds, you should still have 6 seconds available to cast it.

 

Now back to my parse. I casted it every 20 seconds in average, which matches the only source of non avoidable raid damage "Rain of Missiles".

 

So I think it did the job. Still, on that particular fight where the raid damage is quite low, the total contribution of Kolto Waves is only 12.5% of my HPS.

 

Rounding it to the whole ops, i think we can say it contributes to around 25% of my HPS. Does not sound useless to me.

 

I uploaded the other parses of my first raid to answer a simple question : Is scoundrel / operative healing nerfed ? If pulling 4k5 to 5k7 ehps with obsolete gear is bad and unadequate to do ops, then it is. And seeing as my APM is quite low on some fights, I could have done some damage while pulling the same healing numbers.

Edited December 11, 2014 by oturak

[Kufuffelupagus]

I cannot speak for the sages / sorcerers, coudn't get mine to 60 yet and i'm a bit perplexed about roaming mend.

 

Sage healing is awesome fun, and actually very mobile now. With Roaming Mend- if you put it on a target without you having your Rejuvinate buff it works by healing on damage taken and then going to another raid member to heal when damage is taken (from what I can see). I've mostly been using it with the Rejuvinate buff because what it does then is "activate" instantly; it bounces between your target and others who need healing straight away. it's quite good for an "instant" heal on a few targets and is quite smart. i've found that needing to use it with the Rejuvinate buff is not a huge problem because Force management doesn't seem to be as difficult. If I've already got 3 stacks of Resplendence I can use Rejuvinate for buffing other heals.

 

On-topic: I feel like Scoundrels/ Operatives are still great. It's just not as easy as before, which means average Scouperative healers are very meh, and as others have mentioned, no-one is "over-geared" anymore so everyone's requiring more healing.

[oturak]

Sage healing is awesome fun, and actually very mobile now.

 

Thanks for your feedback. I used to play Sage but gradually switched to scoundrel when I started raiding in Nim ops. Playing mainly 8 players, felt like the design of some problematic bosses was not encouraging player stacking and turret healing. Sure it worked but I achieved better results with less hassle with the scoundrel at that time (and the self cleanse on Raptus Nim was the cherry on the pie).

 

Nice to know they made such a good work.

[oturak]

On-topic: I feel like Scoundrels/ Operatives are still great. It's just not as easy as before, which means average Scouperative healers are very meh, and as others have mentioned, no-one is "over-geared" anymore so everyone's requiring more healing.

 

I feel like they lost a lot of their possible single target burst too. Not an issue in a raid setting with a decent healer, but the average joe in a flashpoint will probably suffer. Forgot to get hots running on the tank and he's melting and not using CDs ? Too bad, he'll probably drop by the time you cast two single target heals.

 

Pure reactive healing is easier to achieve right now on commandos and sages.

 

But changing that without toning down some more the AOE healing would make good scoundrels overpowered again. Perhaps providing some kind of instant cast heal proc (on gcd) like once every 20-25 seconds would help without changing the total hps output.

Edited December 11, 2014 by oturak

[Mikeyfree]

Ok, did a whole hm flashpoint. Never healed in pre 3.0 but healing as an op feels good. Single burst was ok, HoTs was awesome!

 

Just know what you are doing and its easy.

[masstershake]

I have healed both ops on both my sorc and op. The sorc is more mobile than the op. With procs my sorc needs to stop only for one heal. My op has 3 he has to stop for. Both are fine numbers wise. The sorc is much easier. And having sorc puddle needed just to touch once to get its effect helps a ton. Also force/energy management is equal you just need to throw in the occasional diagnostic scan.

[Nylira]

I love how if you post a complaint the response of one of the first trolls is always that i must be bad at the game. Hilarious since i healed dp/df nim succesfully pre 3.0 but heck if you think so then i guess it must be true.

My main gripe is our loss of mobility an inability to patch burst damage. Tank have 50k health nowadays and most fights are movement intensive with lots of burst damage. If your tank takes a 30k hit then good luck closing it.

I healed the 8m sm ops and did the hm fp multiple times. Relearned my class but that changes nothing about my complaints.

 

And man that first boss on Assault on Tython is quite a bastard.

[Mikeyfree]

I love how if you post a complaint the response of one of the first trolls is always that i must be bad at the game. Hilarious since i healed dp/df nim succesfully pre 3.0 but heck if you think so then i guess it must be true.

My main gripe is our loss of mobility an inability to patch burst damage. Tank have 50k health nowadays and most fights are movement intensive with lots of burst damage. If your tank takes a 30k hit then good luck closing it.

I healed the 8m sm ops and did the hm fp multiple times. Relearned my class but that changes nothing about my complaints.

 

And man that first boss on Assault on Tython is quite a bastard.

 

Sarcasme about the first hm boss Assault on Tython? I hope so

 

Groupfinder HM fp are a joke! Only did groupfinder ops, gonna search for a guild and looking for some ops hm 8 man raiding! 30k hit? 1 injection (with 2 kolto probe) and a surgical probe and hes healed. maybe not full but hots will do the rest. DOnt stress out..

[Kufuffelupagus]

I love how if you post a complaint the response of one of the first trolls is always that i must be bad at the game. Hilarious since i healed dp/df nim succesfully pre 3.0 but heck if you think so then i guess it must be true.

My main gripe is our loss of mobility an inability to patch burst damage. Tank have 50k health nowadays and most fights are movement intensive with lots of burst damage. If your tank takes a 30k hit then good luck closing it.

I healed the 8m sm ops and did the hm fp multiple times. Relearned my class but that changes nothing about my complaints.

 

/shrug I don't know what to say? Everyone has an opinion based on how easy or difficult they are finding the changes. Some people are more adaptable than others. I also cleared NiM DF/ DP pre-3.0 and still think the scoundrel is okay post-3.0; granted, I haven't gone back into those ops but who wants to after doing them non-stop for months amirite?

 

I find that as I learn the fights better- when burst damage is coming and when movement is coming- I can heal them better. I've always felt that while Scoundrel could do reactive healing well, they can't sustain it for long without either help from their co-heals or the tank using DCDs, and it was more about being proactive for burst damage- making sure there were two stacks of SRM, maybe Kolto Pack, and chuck a Kolto Cloud on them too for 3 HoT abilities to heal them back up quickly. Definitely all about being proactive still- and not just on my Scoundrel but also on my other healers and making sure I have things ready for phases with lots of damage.

[Foambreaker]

Op healing is good enough to get through most content. But BH healing and Sorc healing are both better, and by a fair margin, so if you are looking to do a lot of grouping, level another toon or get DPS gear.

 

This is exactly right, I lvled my sage and my op and my op is a joke, not too mention leveling sucked.

 

Tried my scoundrel on dps and that also is a joke.

 

People saying OP is ok must not have any other chars to compare. OP is worst heals, worst DPS in game.

[Larsenex]

This is exactly right, I lvled my sage and my op and my op is a joke, not too mention leveling sucked.

 

Tried my scoundrel on dps and that also is a joke.

 

People saying OP is ok must not have any other chars to compare. OP is worst heals, worst DPS in game.

 

^^^ Are you referring to to pvp or pve? For PVE they are fine.

[BoboHut]

To put up some numbers on where I'm at with my my op healer, this is would I did last time we did Ravagers 8m SM:

 

Sparky - 8611 hps (2295 ehps)

Bulo - 7426 hps (4080 ehps)

Torque - 6227 hps (2570 ehps)

Blaster - 7043 hps (4214 ehps)

Coratanni - 5802 hps (3314 ehps)

 

In the HM's we've been working on so far, the HPS has been about the same but as expected, the effective heals has gone up. I have noticed it is harder to burst heal, but not impossible if you know when the spike damage is going to happen. I can't remember if it was this thread or not, but the above stuff was a mostly 186 with some 192's and the old set bonuses and I'm running with high alacrity (over 800) and less surge. Between power/crit, I'm about the same as before 3.0 with 200-300 crit.

 

Anyways, I probably can get higher numbers, but I like the play style much better now than before. Instead of trying to maintain hots on the whole group for every fight by default which was incredibly boring, I try to keep kolto waves and nano on cooldown and hots on tanks and maybe 2 others. I use SP to refresh hots or heal twice in 10 secs so that only one will use a TA and TA's are up often enough that I use infusion to apply the DR to the tank. In heavy movement/spread out fights, I can alter this playstyle from an AoE base back to the maintaining more hots. IMHO, its more versitile and less boring than before so I'm liking it a lot. I do miss the burst we use to have though.

[Diachi]

To put up some numbers on where I'm at with my my op healer, this is would I did last time we did Ravagers 8m SM:

 

Anyways, I probably can get higher numbers, but I like the play style much better now than before. Instead of trying to maintain hots on the whole group for every fight by default which was incredibly boring, I try to keep kolto waves and nano on cooldown and hots on tanks and maybe 2 others. I use SP to refresh hots or heal twice in 10 secs so that only one will use a TA and TA's are up often enough that I use infusion to apply the DR to the tank. In heavy movement/spread out fights, I can alter this playstyle from an AoE base back to the maintaining more hots. IMHO, its more versitile and less boring than before so I'm liking it a lot. I do miss the burst we use to have though.

 

It's Story Mode, of course you'll get high numbers. However, if you use Kolto Wave off CD, then your co-healer might have some words with you about burst damage intake. It's more impressive if a healer can do DPS and still maintain the survivability of the raid. It's less impressive if you just show us a number of how much healing you did. eHPS > DPS > HPS.

 

Healing is not about the numbers but how you execute your heals on the right targets at the right time.

[BoboHut]

It's Story Mode, of course you'll get high numbers. However, if you use Kolto Wave off CD, then your co-healer might have some words with you about burst damage intake. It's more impressive if a healer can do DPS and still maintain the survivability of the raid. It's less impressive if you just show us a number of how much healing you did. eHPS > DPS > HPS.

 

Healing is not about the numbers but how you execute your heals on the right targets at the right time.

 

I never look or care about HPS until after the fight. Thats why I put up the ehps and even then its about how you heal and how your other healer is healing. I didn't feel the need to discuss how to heal but I agree with what your saying, for the most part. When torparse gets back up then I can link to that but I don't feel like taking a bunch of screen shots to show that . Anyways, the one thing I absolutely disagree with you on is dpsing as a healer being impressive. The only time you should be doing that on progression ops is if the extra dps is the only way to get past a certain phase (start of Brontes burn phase in NiM). Its a waste of energy and most healers that think its cool end up losing hots and getting behind on heals after and putting more pressure on the other healer.

 

As far as how I use those AoE's on c/d, i like how quick you saw SM and made an assumption and then just started insulting. If you attempted to think about if it was viable, you might have seen that I'm basically swapping the hots that take time to refresh and time to tick to actually heal with an AoE that heals instantly and more as it channels for fights that I can position it to where the damage is happening. I spend less time overall doing the AoE and its heals are more effective if used properly than the kolto probes. This allows me actually more time to do burst heals than if I were to spend the whole time refreshing the entire groups hots. Also, while communicating with the other healer if the group takes a ton of damage, i can get a quick aoe (sometime clipping it) on the whole group to give him time to burst heal the lowest HP and then I step in and start burst healing as well. The other huge benefit to this is that I can recover heals a lot faster than trying to rehot a whole group if I lost hots while burst healing before. With the alacrity I have, I can use the KW's and nano and SP and refresh 2-3 people and still have time for injections as well, so I have no issue with getting those burst heals out while keeping those AoE's on c/d and of course if more focused heals are needed then there are exceptions to keeping them on c/d.

 

For it being just SM, its easy to say that like its easy mode like the ones before 3.0 but these new ones have closer to an EC feel and many guilds are having trouble and few pugs have any chance at completing them. Their mechanics are more on par with HM's before and they are still new to most of us who didn't have PTS access. I think sparky and malaphar are the only 2 that feel like the old easy sm content and we could stack and AoE heal FTW. For everything else, there were many situations where I had to figure out the best use of the AoE heals to get the most out of them.

 

Anyways, the point of me posting those numbers was to show its not as bad as some think. If you still don't like them, that's fine but we can discuss how to heal in another thread and you can convince me why healers should be dpsing

Edited December 23, 2014 by BoboHut
added a few words

[Diachi]

Top to bottom:

 

1. If you haven't encountered it yet, then in HM there will be those "start of Brontes burn phase in NiM" and 2nd phase Healer DPS phases throughout some boss fights. And I can guarantee you, it'll be in NiM.
   
2. Because in SM your group is not severely punished for missing mechanics. I've single healed SM as well as many other healers have already.
   
3. This tier of content of SM does not compare with HM. Some fights are completely different in both mechanics and the amount of damage increase. IE: Sword Squadron, Blaster, Torque, etc.
   
4. I wish I could post my 620k damage phase 2 NiM Council pre-nerf. Oh man, did we push that phase and it gave us the kill that made <YES> server 2nd title run. That pushed 2nd phase helped top off heals, grab crystals, and still have time to spare. I never bothered to heal because that phase can be solo healed. So, why not help push phases, make the fight extremely easier, and push for completion in progression?
   

 

Anyways, I digress.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Diachi

[BoboHut]

1. like I said, in those specific situation, dps is okay. Should not be a goal every fight.

2. did not have the PTS access to get ahead of the game, so our HM progression is at those HM bosses you speak of as being the few harder sm bosses. That being said, we had sm was done in the first few days.

3. you really seam to be stuck on this SM thing like what I'm doing is straight up not viable because of only that. We did only knock out the first boss of each op in HM tonight to get them out of the way, but 6990 (2663) on Sparky HM with a decent amount of burst healing to the tanks and 7337(4994) on Malaphar HM and like I said before, the AoE's play a bigger part on fights when people are grouped and the focus to more hots occurs when there's more movement.

4. Do you want a cookie? Didn't Zorz help Yes with that, before you were in Zorz? In all reality, I don't care. I don't even know what you are arguing at this point other than trying to make it sound like I don't know what I'm talking about soley based on the fact I said SM. I have the NiM clears from before as well and I'll get the HM's soon enough as well as NiM again when it comes out. I also know I've healed enough in this game to figure out what works and what doesn't for each fight and all I'm saying is that KW is a pretty damn good heal and you have offered nothing to prove it isn't other than saying I'm wrong because its SM.

Edited December 24, 2014 by BoboHut
small changes

[Timodruid]

To all of these comments, I've been playing NiM scoundrel for years and years. I've gone to sage because Scoundrel is straight up not good anymore. It's the last of the 3. They really need to buff scoundrel, or rework it otherwise I will stay sage. It requires WAY too much work, and requires your group to stack, on top of less mobility. The best quote I have found from this thread is "Pre-Rakata Sage" Very well done. Sage is just too OP for me not to play it, and mando is just an overall better healer than scoundrel. Thus, I will not be going back until they buff scoundrel healing. (Please do I miss it)

[Koarria]

Op healing is good enough to get through most content. But BH healing and Sorc healing are both better, and by a fair margin, so if you are looking to do a lot of grouping, level another toon or get DPS gear.

 

In my experience, I only feel safe when an Operative Healer is around. Not sure why, but Operatives heal A LOT. Especially Sorcerer/Sage Healers seem to be unwilling or unable to heal, or their heals take way to long. Scoundrels/Operatives are the best and BY FAR!

[mydogclimbstree]

In my experience, I only feel safe when an Operative Healer is around. Not sure why, but Operatives heal A LOT. Especially Sorcerer/Sage Healers seem to be unwilling or unable to heal, or their heals take way to long. Scoundrels/Operatives are the best and BY FAR!

 

Big HPS numbers do not equal good EHPS or good burst. Operative have to heal a lot, because our style is all proactive, whereas the other class are more reactive in nature. My EHPS percent is usually pretty low due to the need to keep up SRMP stacks. If the tank takes a big hit, and I don't have both buffs and 2 stacks of SRMP on him already, I am going to have a much harder time healing him back up timely and efficiently. Compared to my commando, it is a ton of work, and hard to react to changing conditions (like a DPS suddenly being focused by adds, for example).

[MotorCityMan]

Big HPS numbers do not equal good EHPS or good burst. Operative have to heal a lot, because our style is all proactive, whereas the other class are more reactive in nature. My EHPS percent is usually pretty low due to the need to keep up SRMP stacks. If the tank takes a big hit, and I don't have both buffs and 2 stacks of SRMP on him already, I am going to have a much harder time healing him back up timely and efficiently. Compared to my commando, it is a ton of work, and hard to react to changing conditions (like a DPS suddenly being focused by adds, for example).

 

These are precisely the reasons that ops healing suffers in pvp.

[Gaedel]

I'm new to this profession, level 19 as of last night, so I have no experience as to how OP OP healers were previously. I grouped in Hammer Station as a healer and had a tough time doing anything other than heals for many of the tougher fights. Is this normal? Maybe I'm going about it all wrong in terms of the healing/attack rotation. I think it might have to do with the reactive/proactive heals. With proactive heals, when do you attack, if at all? Do you use Stealth at any time prior/during battle, or just use it to sneak past enemies? How about crouch, do you use that at all?

 

With only being at level 19, I'm only at a couple choices in my skill tree, but what order should I choose? If you were starting over, what would you choose and in what order? I think we're looking at 3 choices in the first part, 2 in the second, then moving on to the third.

[omeru]

l see people saying i did 7k hps on SM but

1-it was possible to do 7k hps pre 3.0 with spamming probes

2-you cant decide a class in sm or with hps

How many gcd do merc heals need to top a guy after load lifter in hm? 3-4

How many for OP healers? 4-6 and your energy will be very low also you will loose your kolto stacks and dont forget to pray he doesnt get a barrel while you heal since you dont have any intant heals or abilities to make your next heal instant

Operative/scoundrel are support heal classes now get used to your new role for new hm ops and dont try to be hero. Even our raid buff is joke. Most RNG dependant healer class gets %10 crit buff as raid utility. Yay even our raid buff is RNG.

lt was hard to pass raptus healer challenge with 2 operatives and if it was with this burst heal nerf it would be impossible.

Btw i was rejected for semi pug hm bulo since i said my healer is scoundrel (i had 5 hm boss kill with my scoundrel at that time). New rule for new hm pugs melee and op/scou are not allowed

Edited January 19, 2015 by omeru

[mydogclimbstree]

Btw i was rejected for semi pug hm bulo since i said my healer is scoundrel. New rule for new hm pugs melee and op/scou are not allowed

 

I do not agree with this. My raiding guild has gone 3/5 HM Rev and 3/5 HM TOS, both with a scoundrel healer (different healers, even, so it's not one super awesome scoundrel). Bringing 2 scoundrels/ops would not be the greatest idea, because our burst is low compared to other classes, but we do have solid tank buffs and great AoE healing.