Just spent around 50k at the trainer for skills that I already earned.

[ebado]

Mr. Musco,

 

I have a Sage, Shadow, Assassin and Sorceror. The Sage and Shadow have to retrain Force Lift. The Assassin and Sorceror do not have to retrain the corresponding skill (Whirlwind). How is this not a bug?

 

I have a hard time believing this was intentional. A lot of time with these responses you get the straight company explanation at first and then maybe in a few days acknowledgement of some of the bugs related to it.

[Zin-Zin]

I have a hard time believing this was intentional. A lot of time with these responses you get the straight company explanation at first and then maybe in a few days acknowledgement of some of the bugs related to it.

 

Yeah I think I'm just going to suck it up and shut up about it, otherwise he'll come back here saying 'oh you're right, it was a bug that you didn't have to retrain that skill that you had the whole time and DIDN'T CHANGE AT ALL' and then patch in charging Assassins and Sorcs for it.

 

I have other examples of skills that actually changed and had no associated training costs.

[megadongs]

 

 

• If an existing ability changed, in name or functionality. This could especially affect Disciplines which used to share an overlapping name and set of abilities, such as Lethality Sniper/Operative.
  
• We adjusted at what level you would acquire certain ranks of skills. If you are a character pre-55 you may be training skills at ranks that were previously unavailable.
  
• In some cases we moved abilities from the Base Class to the Advanced Class or vice-versa. This technically means you could have to retrain an ability you already had, since it changed where/how you got it.
  

 

 

 

 

I don't see how any of this applies to slow-release medpac. Guess I should just consider myself lucky you didn't make me relearn speeder piloting "as intended".

[FULONGAMER]

Hey folks,

 

Ok so I have an update on the training/re-training of abilities with the launch of 3.0. With all of the changes that hit with 3.0 to Disciplines, it is intended that there are abilities that need to be trained/re-trained. Here are some of the criteria that could cause this to happen:

• If an existing ability changed, in name or functionality. This could especially affect Disciplines which used to share an overlapping name and set of abilities, such as Lethality Sniper/Operative.
  
• We adjusted at what level you would acquire certain ranks of skills. If you are a character pre-55 you may be training skills at ranks that were previously unavailable.
  
• In some cases we moved abilities from the Base Class to the Advanced Class or vice-versa. This technically means you could have to retrain an ability you already had, since it changed where/how you got it.
  

I had not realized the scope of abilities that would need to be trained or I would have been more proactive in alerting everyone to this prior to 3.0. With this in mind, the need to train/re-train abilities in 3.0 is intended and therefore we are not planning on making any changes at this time. I apologize sincerely for the inconvenience this has caused.

 

Thank you for your understanding.

 

-eric

Sir,

 

I get the Company answer as to "why" and "how" this could apply to a small select handful of skills, and in a reasonable expense kind of way. However, you are not appreciating the full scope and context of this problem or the impact of your unintended consequences. Are you seriously stating that a Heal Spec Trooper (Commando) which was Heal Spec before and Heal Spec After the Discipline system went into effect has to pay over 150K in "RECLAIMED TRAINING". Whether it came from a Class Tree or an Advanced Class Training tab is immaterial if you are not going to fully refund our initial training costs we already paid to defray the "RENEWED" training costs of this forced ReSpec.

 

3k for one character (L 55) vs 150K+ for another (L 50) in "Renewed Training" is not your "Intended Training Cost" excuse.

 

Please revisit this problem in detail and assess EXACTLY how widespread this effect on all classes is. I GUARANTEE that your well reasoned explanation is not the root cause of this class/AC Class based training cost problem. The Code written to "translate" old training into new training was simply NOT a finished product as of "Early access Street Date" for this new content.

 

Not. By. A. Long. Shot.

 

Some classes were CLEARLY not included in the Training Translation code written to implement this change.

 

Early access is now NO access as I cannot play the characters I paid for (19 alts in total) because the Initial-to-play-again costs of this training cost bug are not affordable.

 

I STRONGLY suggest reactivating the Pre-Order Training Cost exemption in the New Discipline System with your "costs" resumed from whatever level you are now forward ONLY. That or at least return all the previously spent training Cost Credits to allow us to Re-Invest what we have already spent on OLD training into the NEW Training.

 

There is NO WAY that the 3k vs 150k difference is intended in your model. Fix the Code please.

 

And no... (other players who say "So what it rains money"...) I will NOT go to Illum and grind for cash because the Character is UNPLAYABLE if not SKILLED (class trainer costs) to do so.

Edited December 4, 2014 by FULONGAMER
typo

[ebado]

Yeah I think I'm just going to suck it up and shut up about it, otherwise he'll come back here saying 'oh you're right, it was a bug that you didn't have to retrain that skill that you had the whole time and DIDN'T CHANGE AT ALL' and then patch in charging Assassins and Sorcs for it.

 

I have other examples of skills that actually changed and had no associated training costs.

 

Yeah. Force Lift is luckily one of the less troublesome ones, since its just one rank and very cheap.

 

The difference between Commando and Mercenary shows the issue better, I think.

 

Commando training window at 55: http://i.imgur.com/L05Vj5U.jpg

Mercenary training window at 55: http://i.imgur.com/ogPNVwk.jpg

 

Maybe this is intended but it doesn't seem so at first look.

[ebado]

I don't see how any of this applies to slow-release medpac. Guess I should just consider myself lucky you didn't make me relearn speeder piloting "as intended".

 

That one makes sense to me since it was a spec skill previously (Sawbones) and is now baseline for operatives. You never paid to train Slow-Release Medpac, you just had it from your skill tree.

 

I don't really mind those but understand people might be bothered.

[Max_Killjoy]

So now it's "entitlement" to expect things not to be taken from you without compensation?

 

I'm really glad I don't live in your neighborhood.

 

Ignore him, he's just using worn-out kiddie memes to try get a rise out of people.

[TravelersWay]

Hey folks,

 

Ok so I have an update on the training/re-training of abilities with the launch of 3.0. With all of the changes that hit with 3.0 to Disciplines, it is intended that there are abilities that need to be trained/re-trained. Here are some of the criteria that could cause this to happen:

• If an existing ability changed, in name or functionality. This could especially affect Disciplines which used to share an overlapping name and set of abilities, such as Lethality Sniper/Operative.
  
• We adjusted at what level you would acquire certain ranks of skills. If you are a character pre-55 you may be training skills at ranks that were previously unavailable.
  
• In some cases we moved abilities from the Base Class to the Advanced Class or vice-versa. This technically means you could have to retrain an ability you already had, since it changed where/how you got it.
  

I had not realized the scope of abilities that would need to be trained or I would have been more proactive in alerting everyone to this prior to 3.0. With this in mind, the need to train/re-train abilities in 3.0 is intended and therefore we are not planning on making any changes at this time. I apologize sincerely for the inconvenience this has caused.

 

Thank you for your understanding.

 

-eric

 

And what kind of sense does that make for skills like Force Lift that were early level skills that we already paid to train for. Nothing in Disciplines should have or warrant a retraining for such skills. To me it makes no sense to have to retrain for a skill we already paid for just because it was trained originally from the base class and is now an advanced class skill or vice versa - since we didn't change classes or advanced classes. And to have to retrain a skill that simply changed its name is simply ludicrous.

 

Mr. Musco,

 

I have a Sage, Shadow, Assassin and Sorceror. The Sage and Shadow have to retrain Force Lift. The Assassin and Sorceror do not have to retrain the corresponding skill (Whirlwind). How is this not a bug?

Indeed

Edited December 4, 2014 by TravelersWay

[Code_Airwolf]

Hey folks,

 

Ok so I have an update on the training/re-training of abilities with the launch of 3.0. With all of the changes that hit with 3.0 to Disciplines, it is intended that there are abilities that need to be trained/re-trained. Here are some of the criteria that could cause this to happen:

• If an existing ability changed, in name or functionality. This could especially affect Disciplines which used to share an overlapping name and set of abilities, such as Lethality Sniper/Operative.
  
• We adjusted at what level you would acquire certain ranks of skills. If you are a character pre-55 you may be training skills at ranks that were previously unavailable.
  
• In some cases we moved abilities from the Base Class to the Advanced Class or vice-versa. This technically means you could have to retrain an ability you already had, since it changed where/how you got it.
  

I had not realized the scope of abilities that would need to be trained or I would have been more proactive in alerting everyone to this prior to 3.0. With this in mind, the need to train/re-train abilities in 3.0 is intended and therefore we are not planning on making any changes at this time. I apologize sincerely for the inconvenience this has caused.

 

Thank you for your understanding.

 

-eric

 

 

This is all completely understandable but CHARGING everyone a second time to retrain is shenanigans. This is basically a giant respec, and should simply be treated as one. The game obviously knows when each character is logging on for the first time after this expansion, they are stripped down and need to respec their entire build. The first time one respecs the character it should be @ no charge up to your current level. Everything after is charged as per the norm. It's kind of a common sense request that people are making here.

 

Edited December 4, 2014 by Code_Airwolf

[Hiragawa]

Yeah. Force Lift is luckily one of the less troublesome ones, since its just one rank and very cheap.

 

The difference between Commando and Mercenary shows the issue better, I think.

 

Commando training window at 55: http://i.imgur.com/L05Vj5U.jpg

Mercenary training window at 55: http://i.imgur.com/ogPNVwk.jpg

 

Maybe this is intended but it doesn't seem so at first look.

 

Thank you Ebado, this was the exact point I was trying to reference in my post, but I lacked the screenshots to compare them since I zipped through the training costs on my Merc without paying much attention after the patch.

 

Clearly something is wrong here Eric and the "Working as intended" excuse just won't cut it for a lot of us. The discrepancies between costs for classes is just too wide to be acceptable, and clearly we are seeing differences between mirrored classes as well. My Powertech for instance (Admittedly 52, not 55) only had to train the "new" passives and ONE rank of Flame Sweep (Which I think was due to rank 4 being lowered to 47?). That's it. No skills needing to be retrained, no giant credit sink, no buttons missing from my bars in the line of charged bolt or force lift.

 

If it were just one or two abilities that seemed to line up perfectly, I'm sure a great many of us would understand or at least be willing to accept it and move on without any further discussion, but clearly things DON'T line up here.

[Oyranos]

Hey folks,

 

Although there may have been some skills that would require training with the implementation of Disciplines, it does seem (due to these reports) that it may be wider spread than that. We are looking into this now and once I have more info I will pass it on.

 

-eric

 

Dont forget to mail us the credits!! Also, have u seen the proffesion trainers? they sell us the things we allreadt know.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Oyranos

[Aelgerion]

I was extremely excited to download the new content and play around with the new disciplines. This situation last night pretty much killed my excitement for a few days and I, too, am voting with my wallet while I unsub and play different games.

 

The key thing that needs to happen is for some more rigor to be put into evaluating the discrepancies between even mirror classes, refund credits for those who have retrained abilities just to be able to play, and actually fix what's wrong.

 

As a side note to this, my Jedi Guardian doesn't even have Dispatch or Cyclone Slash anymore and I haven't found out why - curious if anyone else had this issue.

 

Good luck, friends.

[NogueiraA]

No. I'm NOT spending credits on something that's CLEARLY bugged and you don't want to admit it.

 

Waiting on a fix, I don't mind spending credits, i DO mind spend credits on bugged stuff.

[Zin-Zin]

That one makes sense to me since it was a spec skill previously (Sawbones) and is now baseline for operatives. You never paid to train Slow-Release Medpac, you just had it from your skill tree.

 

I don't really mind those but understand people might be bothered.

 

At the same time, you have a skill on Marauders/Sentinels that was actually changed in effect (Leg Slash went from just a snare to a snare + heal debuff). According to the 'rules', it should have been sitting at your trainer, waiting for you to buy it again. Nope, my Sentinel/Marauder didn't have to buy that skill, while my Jedi Guardian had to rebuy all ranks of a skill that may only have changed in the level it was granted.

 

The issue is that the 'rules' for having to pay for skills again obviously wasn't applied consistently. I don't have a problem with paying for new things--I have a problem with paying for things on some classes and not others, haphazardly.

 

Edit: Removed an invalid example after double-checking. The Sorc/Sage group heals seem to still be granted via the heal skill tree. My bad!

Edited December 4, 2014 by Zin-Zin

[Propecius]

Hey folks,

 

Thank you for your understanding.

 

-eric

 

I don't think you guys understand how many players you're alienating. Or maybe you do, and you think the number of new players will make up for us legacies you'll be losing. I don't know enough about your business to tell you how to run it. I only know I don't like being treated like this, and I will put my money where my mouth is.

 

What doesn't make sense about this is, if they're charging for "new" abilities that are very much like old abilities, then why are we not also being credited for the old abilities we lost?

 

Ideally (and what we all expected was) it should be a zero-sum respec. None of us asked for the skill system to be changed, so why should the customers have to pay (even fake in-game money) for something they forced on us?

 

My sub is paid up until March. If they don't go back on this by then, I have a calendar reminder set to cancel. I suspect I will have stopped playing long before then. Again, not rage-quitting, just disappointed to be treated like this by a company and game I enjoyed and even defended in the past.

 

Still, all good things must come to an end. Anyone for STO? I still have a lifetime sub there.

 

Cheers!

[Warrgames]

Hey folks,

 

Ok so I have an update on the training/re-training of abilities with the launch of 3.0. With all of the changes that hit with 3.0 to Disciplines, it is intended that there are abilities that need to be trained/re-trained. Here are some of the criteria that could cause this to happen:

• If an existing ability changed, in name or functionality. This could especially affect Disciplines which used to share an overlapping name and set of abilities, such as Lethality Sniper/Operative.
  
• We adjusted at what level you would acquire certain ranks of skills. If you are a character pre-55 you may be training skills at ranks that were previously unavailable.
  
• In some cases we moved abilities from the Base Class to the Advanced Class or vice-versa. This technically means you could have to retrain an ability you already had, since it changed where/how you got it.
  

I had not realized the scope of abilities that would need to be trained or I would have been more proactive in alerting everyone to this prior to 3.0. With this in mind, the need to train/re-train abilities in 3.0 is intended and therefore we are not planning on making any changes at this time. I apologize sincerely for the inconvenience this has caused.

 

Thank you for your understanding.

 

-eric

 

BS you wouldn't have told us anything. Just like with comms and gear. Lies are nice.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Warrgames

[ndursinger]

Hey folks,

 

Ok so I have an update on the training/re-training of abilities with the launch of 3.0. With all of the changes that hit with 3.0 to Disciplines, ................. we are not planning on making any changes at this time. I apologize sincerely for the inconvenience this has caused.

 

Thank you for your understanding.

 

-eric

 

 

Hmmmm...........

 

I'm surprised no one has hit on the truth of this conundrum. This is ALL about keeping the servers active/full and nothing more.

 

Why do we have to pay a fee for selling on the gtn with imaginary money? Because it keeps people playing to cover these unnecessary fees which equals revenue for EA

 

Why is it that the cartel packs really are not well rewarding ? thus not only filling the gtn with the spam filler stuff (like speeders that sell for under 10k) but also making the unnecessary super rare stuff sell for "retirement amounts" ? Because not only do they bilk the hypercrate buyers into buying more to get the super rare, but they also get people to grind endlessly to afford the items on the gtn ......either way they get your money or your time which equals revenue for EA

 

Why is it that they implement a new system of abilities thus making you pay AGAIN to learn what you already did? Because it keeps people playing/grinding to cover these unnecessary fees which equals revenue for EA.

 

This is corporate greed at its best imho. In real life we are taxed to hell and back, manipulated into buying crap that breaks the day after warranty because nothing is made with pride anymore, and lied to by the people who do it to us with vague politically correct replies that acknowledge that .....YEP!,they got us good and they are the ones collecting revenue. When a game or entertainment device/method forgets that they are nothing but a luxury and consider themselves now a neccesity their arogance will bring their own downfall. I'm glad that I had the chance to play all 8 classes to 55 before this hammer came down.THIS is the reason why myself, and others I have spoken with ,agree,,no more cash paid for cartel coins, no more pre order anything. Because if this is the way you treat your customers, I would hate to think how you treat your enemies. As a 30+ year business owner, all I can do is shake my head. Will we still play?...YES but sparsely with no extras because this event was the straw that broke the the camels back and if I had wanted a bad taste in my mouth then I would of rather of dined at a restaurant with low dept of health scores.

[Zin-Zin]

Since I'm waiting on a friend of mine to log in to STO, here's another example:

 

Marauder had to rebuy their interrupt skill.

Sentinel did not.

[Lyriel]

Hey folks,

 

Ok so I have an update on the training/re-training of abilities with the launch of 3.0. With all of the changes that hit with 3.0 to Disciplines, it is intended that there are abilities that need to be trained/re-trained. Here are some of the criteria that could cause this to happen:

• If an existing ability changed, in name or functionality. This could especially affect Disciplines which used to share an overlapping name and set of abilities, such as Lethality Sniper/Operative.
  
• We adjusted at what level you would acquire certain ranks of skills. If you are a character pre-55 you may be training skills at ranks that were previously unavailable.
  
• In some cases we moved abilities from the Base Class to the Advanced Class or vice-versa. This technically means you could have to retrain an ability you already had, since it changed where/how you got it.
  

I had not realized the scope of abilities that would need to be trained or I would have been more proactive in alerting everyone to this prior to 3.0. With this in mind, the need to train/re-train abilities in 3.0 is intended and therefore we are not planning on making any changes at this time. I apologize sincerely for the inconvenience this has caused.

 

Thank you for your understanding.

 

-eric

 

Do not thank me for my understanding before you know what it is I understand from what you have said.

 

What I understand is that the consequences to players, and especially to casual players who enjoy many alts, was not adequately considered ahead of time, and is now being waved off as immaterial. Sorry, but "Oops, should have said something" is not an acceptable response. Even if you had said something it would not lessen the impact. Nothing you could have possibly said would have made this any more reasonable.

 

My characters are not rich, and I can't afford to retrain them all. The sticking point was when I got to my level 55 Commando and noticed I had to rebuy so many things at so many levels that she would be unable to afford them all. Seriously, Charged Bolts for example? ALL levels of it, regardless of how many I bought before?

 

Sorry, but that's the last straw for this Founder.

[Hunterr]

Ya this explanation still doesn't make sense due to mirrored classes having to pay more/less than the other.

[XyonicS]

I would not say no if you wanted to mail out say, 500k or so credits to every character to help cope with the costs.

 

Would likely go a long way to helping ease the angry.

 

I know will not happen, lol.

[ShyNyny]

Eric, in the future please ask the team to reduce the costs to 1 credit or even free when such substantial changes are being made. I've spent hundreds of thousands of credits on one character alone - god forbid how much I'll have to spend on my 11 other alts.

 

Agreed. I can't afford this retraining on any of my characters, right now. This retraining business was a massive, somewhat nauseating surprise when I logged in yesterday. Worse than a good chunk of my Decorations magically being inaccessible in my Decorations list.

Edited December 4, 2014 by ShyNyny

[Ivy_Blackrose]

well considering you make about 1.5 mil by the time you are done with all the quests, you actually have about 400k left over from training when you are done, so no I dont see a problem here

[JoeeyyMagzz]

Ya this explanation still doesn't make sense due to mirrored classes having to pay more/less than the other.

 

This! Also, we may not have paid for the initial ability and got it from our skill tree, but we did pay to upgrade the ability before. How do you justify us paying for ability upgrades that we ALREADY PAID FOR?! Paying for abilities is already an early 2000's MMO sink, but now you want us to repay? The dev's are either going, or have gone, insane. I'm sorry that you have to be the messenger for something like this Eric, that's really sad.

 

I'm cancelling my sub. This game had a rough start, slowly picked up in 1.4, and now it's falling far enough to where it's becoming unrecoverable. I'll check this game out again in 6 months or so. Hopefully something changes because I cannot justify subbing to this game anymore when the developers clearly do not give a crap.

[JoeeyyMagzz]

Hmmmm...........

 

I'm surprised no one has hit on the truth of this conundrum. This is ALL about keeping the servers active/full and nothing more.

 

Why do we have to pay a fee for selling on the gtn with imaginary money? Because it keeps people playing to cover these unnecessary fees which equals revenue for EA

 

Why is it that the cartel packs really are not well rewarding ? thus not only filling the gtn with the spam filler stuff (like speeders that sell for under 10k) but also making the unnecessary super rare stuff sell for "retirement amounts" ? Because not only do they bilk the hypercrate buyers into buying more to get the super rare, but they also get people to grind endlessly to afford the items on the gtn ......either way they get your money or your time which equals revenue for EA

 

Why is it that they implement a new system of abilities thus making you pay AGAIN to learn what you already did? Because it keeps people playing/grinding to cover these unnecessary fees which equals revenue for EA.

 

This is corporate greed at its best imho. In real life we are taxed to hell and back, manipulated into buying crap that breaks the day after warranty because nothing is made with pride anymore, and lied to by the people who do it to us with vague politically correct replies that acknowledge that .....YEP!,they got us good and they are the ones collecting revenue. When a game or entertainment device/method forgets that they are nothing but a luxury and consider themselves now a neccesity their arogance will bring their own downfall. I'm glad that I had the chance to play all 8 classes to 55 before this hammer came down.THIS is the reason why myself, and others I have spoken with ,agree,,no more cash paid for cartel coins, no more pre order anything. Because if this is the way you treat your customers, I would hate to think how you treat your enemies. As a 30+ year business owner, all I can do is shake my head. Will we still play?...YES but sparsely with no extras because this event was the straw that broke the the camels back and if I had wanted a bad taste in my mouth then I would of rather of dined at a restaurant with low dept of health scores.

 

Amen. This was indeed the straw that broke the camels back for me. I seriously doubt there are many people still around that have subbed as long as I have, and that's really sad, but it's what Bioware deserves. They do not deserve our money because they won't even listen to us. They keep telling us one thing and then posting the, "Oh yeah, forgot this part...," later on. I'm done. I can't say I regret spending the money because I don't. I did enjoy the game for a very long time. However, when you keep dumping garbage on top of someones head, they eventually get sick and tired of the stink and want out. I'm just happy I'm getting out before the pile is too high.

 

2nd wave early access (December 13, 2011) Original CE owner - December 3, 2014.