Hate this new skill tree

[Arkerus]

i dont play other mmos. what other mmos do is none of my concern. talk about other mmos where people care about other mmos.

 

and while i dont really care about the skill trees, this thread and the dozens of others are evidence that people do seem to care.

 

Its painfully obvious you have zero perspective on the issue and why they changed the skill system. I am not sure what else to tell you because you dont grasp what is going on.

[EllieAnne]

They changed for three reasons.

1) Eliminate hybrids because something about PvP and because if you don't have the absolute perfect build in NiM mode your group will wipe and everyone in SWTOR will hate you. Obviously these are much more important than having a fun build to run PvE

 

2) Make things easier for the lowest common denomenator. No real choices (those utilities "choices"? interesting how only a few actually make sense for a tank or healer) because who cares because everyone was playing the exact same build anyways - except those who weren't (See #1).

 

3) Eliminate people in PvP from using skills mechanics to get an unfair and unintended advantage because

a) Clearly that is more important than PvE

b) Clearly PvP players would never dream of trying to abuse the mechanics NOW. and there is not a significant subset of MMO players that view abusing the mechanics as part of the game and had it figured out about an hour after early release.

[Ryllynyth]

They changed for three reasons.

1) Eliminate hybrids because something about PvP and because if you don't have the absolute perfect build in NiM mode your group will wipe and everyone in SWTOR will hate you. Obviously these are much more important than having a fun build to run PvE

 

(bolding mine)

 

To the part I highlighted: Yes, actually, balance is more important than a small subset of players getting to have their hybrid builds.

 

Whether it's because of PvP or endgame raiding is irrelevant, the devs decided they had to adjust balance for the good of the game, so they did it. I'm sorry you can't have your hybrids anymore, but since they were apparently part of the balance problem itself (and with the skill tree system level cap raises would always result in issues balancing hybrids, it's just how that kind of system works) I can certainly understand their thought process in 'taking away' hybrid possibilities.

[EllieAnne]

(bolding mine)

 

To the part I highlighted: Yes, actually, balance is more important than a small subset of players getting to have their hybrid builds.

 

Why?

No I'm serious. Why? If 90% of the players want to run around with a fun build like a self healing "tank" hybrid or want to nerf themselves by not having the optimum skills. Who cares?

 

And I honestly don't think it's a PvP issue. PvPers are all about abusing mechanics and gear tweeks and what not. Like my boyfriend says, they are the "tunerboyz" so why not have hybrids vs hybrids in PvP?

 

And about ops, I see more problems with not knowing fights (interrupt the F'ing corrupter!!!!) than builds. I mean have you ever run in a PUG? What percentage of wipes are due to builds? Very close to zero except at the toughest level which you won't run as a PUG anyways.

[Pagy]

Its painfully obvious you have zero perspective on the issue and why they changed the skill system. I am not sure what else to tell you because you dont grasp what is going on.

do you have a problem with reading comprehension or are you just being purposely obtuse?

 

i think the skill system is fine.

[MillionsKNives]

Why?

No I'm serious. Why? If 90% of the players want to run around with a fun build like a self healing "tank" hybrid or want to nerf themselves by not having the optimum skills. Who cares?

 

I think you mean 1%. BioWare themselves stated that pretty much everyone used the same builds already and that for the most part as it was designed it didn't allow all that much real choice. Your perception that a lot of people played with "fun builds" is incredibly skewed.

 

And I honestly don't think it's a PvP issue. PvPers are all about abusing mechanics and gear tweeks and what not. Like my boyfriend says, they are the "tunerboyz" so why not have hybrids vs hybrids in PvP?

 

Yes, PVP love to exploit mechanics, which is why it's incredibly important that everything is balanced, because if it's not they'll exploit it. Allowing hybrids makes the job of balancing classes much tougher, because there are a lot of issues where some crazy combination that the developers didn't think of all of a sudden just crushes everything else.

 

And about ops, I see more problems with not knowing fights (interrupt the F'ing corrupter!!!!) than builds. I mean have you ever run in a PUG? What percentage of wipes are due to builds? Very close to zero except at the toughest level which you won't run as a PUG anyways.

 

When one spec over another makes a fight a breeze then it doesn't matter how skilled or unskilled the player is, it's easier to just take that one spec. This is more true for HM and NiM content, but over time that information trickles down and people start requiring it for lower level content as well. You could see it in early 2.0 with Assassin Tanks. Even if overall they weren't at a huge disadvantage in all but 16 NiM people over time learned that Assassin tanks were having trouble and people stopped taking Assassin tanks on runs. And not only that, if someone would ask which tank to level they would be steered away from taking Assassins even if they would never step foot in 16 NiM.

 

The problem with imbalance doesn't just affect PVP, nor is it just the highest tiers of PVE. If left long enough it will affect almost all levels of group content.

Edited December 8, 2014 by MillionsKNives

[EllieAnne]

I'm not saying people were running around with fun builds, I just pointed out that IF a majority wanted to, then what's the problem? But as someone pointed out elsewhere in this thread, if there are so few hybrids then why should BW be so worried about it to fundamentally change the game. Let the player be punished by not being able to solo content or invited to groups or whatever.

 

And I still don't get the problem with PvP because the point most (all?) of you are missing is that as balanced as BW thinks it is now, I guaranty it isn't and moreover it never will be. If I hit this attack and this buff THEN hit CC ... . So this balancing that makes everyone including PvP change how they play the game will be broken within the week anyways. Or maybe you haven't been following how many times BW has nerfed a class or a skill for balancing purposes. Has it ever been 100%?

 

In short the discipline system either addresses a problem that doesn't need to be fixed (take you're pick: you're punished in-game for your sub-optimum build OR doesn't matter since everyone has the same build anyways) and indeed can never be fixed (fixing balancing for mechanics abusers)

[MillionsKNives]

I'm not saying people were running around with fun builds, I just pointed out that IF a majority wanted to, then what's the problem? But as someone pointed out elsewhere in this thread, if there are so few hybrids then why should BW be so worried about it to fundamentally change the game. Let the player be punished by not being able to solo content or invited to groups or whatever.

 

And I still don't get the problem with PvP because the point most (all?) of you are missing is that as balanced as BW thinks it is now, I guaranty it isn't and moreover it never will be. If I hit this attack and this buff THEN hit CC ... . So this balancing that makes everyone including PvP change how they play the game will be broken within the week anyways. Or maybe you haven't been following how many times BW has nerfed a class or a skill for balancing purposes. Has it ever been 100%?

 

In short the discipline system either addresses a problem that doesn't need to be fixed (take you're pick: you're punished in-game for your sub-optimum build OR doesn't matter since everyone has the same build anyways) and indeed can never be fixed (fixing balancing for mechanics abusers)

 

If so few players use hybrids why should BioWare care to keep it in the game? Getting rid of hybrids wasn't the only reason why disciplines was needed, but it was certainly a bonus. And it wasn't the non-optimal hybrids that people worried about mostly, it was the OP ones. And those became just as much FOTM as a pure spec might. The main difference being that at least with a pure spec BioWare is more likely to catch major imbalance early on than with a hybrid spec they didn't see coming.

 

There will never be 100% balance, but it is a necessary goal to work towards regardless. Disciplines makes that process easier, at the expense of a system that very few people made use of.

[Sangrar]

I'm not saying people were running around with fun builds, I just pointed out that IF a majority wanted to, then what's the problem? But as someone pointed out elsewhere in this thread, if there are so few hybrids then why should BW be so worried about it to fundamentally change the game. Let the player be punished by not being able to solo content or invited to groups or whatever.

 

And I still don't get the problem with PvP because the point most (all?) of you are missing is that as balanced as BW thinks it is now, I guaranty it isn't and moreover it never will be. If I hit this attack and this buff THEN hit CC ... . So this balancing that makes everyone including PvP change how they play the game will be broken within the week anyways. Or maybe you haven't been following how many times BW has nerfed a class or a skill for balancing purposes. Has it ever been 100%?

 

In short the discipline system either addresses a problem that doesn't need to be fixed (take you're pick: you're punished in-game for your sub-optimum build OR doesn't matter since everyone has the same build anyways) and indeed can never be fixed (fixing balancing for mechanics abusers)

 

hybrids and the potential for hybrids created various issues. There have been several known instances under which hybrids were created with devastating class balance results, including a dps tank Powertech among the most famous, being used a lot in pvp and even ranked if I remember correctly. Also, it slows down class balancing, as devs would have to be careful when modifying skills or abilities that it wouldn't create some deadly hybrid combo. The skill trees in the end just made it harder balancing wise, and the last time an expansion came out and 5 points were added it totally screwed up class balance, with scoundrels being the preferable choice as healers by a large margin for many months.

 

Disciplines hasn't made the class balance any better yet, thats a given. BUT, it will be easier, they won't have to deal with the threat of hybrids anymore which rids them of an obstacle to balancing, and now the level cap can be raised with less of a problem. In the end, the balance has to be kept as close as can be, so that way players can choose a class and playstyle that they want instead of choosing one solely to be competitive.

 

Now, balancing, in the end, will never get it 100 percent right, I mean, whenever there are different classes with different abilities, its never going to be 100 percent as one will always have an advantage over the other. THE DIFFERENCE is how much of an advantage, it could be slight, which is the best we can hope for, OR it can be a landslide which is what happened several times due to skill tree issues.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Sangrar

[Arkerus]

I'm not saying people were running around with fun builds, I just pointed out that IF a majority wanted to, then what's the problem? But as someone pointed out elsewhere in this thread, if there are so few hybrids then why should BW be so worried about it to fundamentally change the game. Let the player be punished by not being able to solo content or invited to groups or whatever.

 

And I still don't get the problem with PvP because the point most (all?) of you are missing is that as balanced as BW thinks it is now, I guaranty it isn't and moreover it never will be. If I hit this attack and this buff THEN hit CC ... . So this balancing that makes everyone including PvP change how they play the game will be broken within the week anyways. Or maybe you haven't been following how many times BW has nerfed a class or a skill for balancing purposes. Has it ever been 100%?

 

In short the discipline system either addresses a problem that doesn't need to be fixed (take you're pick: you're punished in-game for your sub-optimum build OR doesn't matter since everyone has the same build anyways) and indeed can never be fixed (fixing balancing for mechanics abusers)

 

You don't get to put a sentence at the end with two hard factors and say "pick one". That isn't how a discussion works. The discipline system is allowed to address multiple issues. This isn't black and white. Stop being obtuse.

 

There were several "problems" and Bioware chose to fix them with a new system. I 100% agree with them.

[Sorwen]

People seem to think all MMOs were balanced before there were skill trees which isn't the case. The biggest balance issues come between PvE and PvP, but even without one or the other there are still issues. Until you totally separate the two or totally ignore the need for balance in one then there are going to be continual balance issues beyond just the class issues. And having one stat difference between the two doesn't cut it.

 

The lack of pretty much any choice has made the game extremely boring. It seem people are not going to be happy until the ground game is on rails as much as the PvE space game.

[azudelphi]

People seem to think all MMOs were balanced before there were skill trees which isn't the case. The biggest balance issues come between PvE and PvP, but even without one or the other there are still issues. Until you totally separate the two or totally ignore the need for balance in one then there are going to be continual balance issues beyond just the class issues. And having one stat difference between the two doesn't cut it.

 

The lack of pretty much any choice has made the game extremely boring. It seem people are not going to be happy until the ground game is on rails as much as the PvE space game.

 

It isn't skill trees inherently that cause the problem, it's vertical advancement + a limited resource pool for combat balance that causes Skill Trees to become problematic.

[Whisperingdruid]

I hate this new skill tree! IT HAS RUINED SWTOR!

yes I agree 100% this is the worst choice they have made so far "in my opinion" this is nothing more the a lazy way to balance things sadly it wont. all it did was take away the need for thought and make it easier for the wow converts to ruin this game as well. thank you devs. for killing a game I loved, you will get no more of my money. I know its silly but I feel betrayed.

[Obi-Gon]

They tried to do this back in early 2012 and it was shot down by the Better Businesses Bureau. I agree I have played with the system for a bit now and it's not good they are telling us how we should play and took away the option for us hybrid players to play the way we want as it states in their advertisements. It would be different if this was the system from the start but as it stands it was not and now they have dilemma either stay and suffer loses or revert it back to the way it was witch I am surprised that it has not already happen. I know of a few people that have already filled out forms and made complaints to the Better Businesses Bureau about this issue and I expect the out come to be about the same as last time. It kind of goes with the saying if it's not broke don't fix it and I know the last system was not perfect and it had been fixed time and again but this hole new system and not the fix it needed in my option it was the worst idea they have came up with. I would like to see the old system restored back to the way it was just a few teaks here and there because like many others we have lost out on many skills and our unique play styles that have taken time to create.

[LordArtemis]

I don't hate this new skill tree...far from it.

 

But I am concerned about some of the ability mechanics that changed, like moving OS to a cover only ability. That was an odd change IMO.

 

Some of the ability changes seem a bit odd here and there. And a few of the build rotations are much more clunky than they used to be, especially sniper IMO.

[Arkerus]

They tried to do this back in early 2012 and it was shot down by the Better Businesses Bureau. I agree I have played with the system for a bit now and it's not good they are telling us how we should play and took away the option for us hybrid players to play the way we want as it states in their advertisements. It would be different if this was the system from the start but as it stands it was not and now they have dilemma either stay and suffer loses or revert it back to the way it was witch I am surprised that it has not already happen. I know of a few people that have already filled out forms and made complaints to the Better Businesses Bureau about this issue and I expect the out come to be about the same as last time. It kind of goes with the saying if it's not broke don't fix it and I know the last system was not perfect and it had been fixed time and again but this hole new system and not the fix it needed in my option it was the worst idea they have came up with. I would like to see the old system restored back to the way it was just a few teaks here and there because like many others we have lost out on many skills and our unique play styles that have taken time to create.

 

[citation needed]

 

They tried to do this in 2012 and were shot down by the BBB? What planet did this happen on?

 

I'm going to be gentle and nice about this since I assume you aren't kidding and actually believe what you are typing.

 

There is no violation, of any kind, regarding state or federal law. There is no moral issue being violated either. Bioware, as the game designer reserves every right to change their product at any time. There is no false advertising and this isn't some bait and switch scam. You are still receiving what you pay for: a Star Wars MMO. They haven't replaced it with hello kitty island adventure or changed the game from an MMO to a MOBA.

 

There was nothing that was stopped by the BBB before either. You are simply making things up.

 

It comments like this that actually hurt the conversation more than anything since they don't allow for serious discourse.

 

(And if you got me with a troll post, good show sir, good show)

Edited December 10, 2014 by Arkerus

[Max_Killjoy]

do you have a problem with reading comprehension or are you just being purposely obtuse?

 

i think the skill system is fine.

 

He's just eager to attack people instead of ideas, to the point that he doesn't bother with their actual ideas.

[MillionsKNives]

They tried to do this back in early 2012 and it was shot down by the Better Businesses Bureau. [...] I know of a few people that have already filled out forms and made complaints to the Better Businesses Bureau about this issue and I expect the out come to be about the same as last time.

 

Wait...what? What the hell are you talking about?

 

Please do explain, I really want to hear this.

Edited December 10, 2014 by MillionsKNives

[Eldrenath]

I'm not saying people were running around with fun builds, I just pointed out that IF a majority wanted to, then what's the problem?

 

The majority doesn't want to. Many do want to, but not the majority. Players have every right to dislike EA/BW but they have the stats on their game. If 90%--no, if even 20%--were running hybrid, this change would not have happened. No way. I am not saying that no one ran hybrid. Not at all. Many did. Many have come here to point that out. But there's simply no way it was even close to a majority. If it was, they never would have rolled the dice on this change.

 

So that means the small minority used it. And the existence of those builds used by a small minority was adversely impacting other player. Far more players than were using the hybrid builds. If hybrid builds had no impact on other players and was removed, I'd absolutely complain as well. But it did, so now its gone.

[leihn]

The majority doesn't want to. Many do want to, but not the majority. Players have every right to dislike EA/BW but they have the stats on their game. If 90%--no, if even 20%--were running hybrid, this change would not have happened. No way. I am not saying that no one ran hybrid. Not at all. Many did. Many have come here to point that out. But there's simply no way it was even close to a majority. If it was, they never would have rolled the dice on this change.

 

So that means the small minority used it. And the existence of those builds used by a small minority was adversely impacting other player. Far more players than were using the hybrid builds. If hybrid builds had no impact on other players and was removed, I'd absolutely complain as well. But it did, so now its gone.

 

I'm genuinely curious, what was the adverse effect on players, if universally hybrids are viewed as non-viable.

[MillionsKNives]

I'm genuinely curious, what was the adverse effect on players, if universally hybrids are viewed as non-viable.

 

Aside from the minimal bonus of saving players from themselves, it's not the crappy hybrid builds that people were trying to get rid of. It's the OP hybrids that were the problem, but you can't have one without the inevitability of the other. Also, getting rid of hybrids was not the only reason for the change, but it was a big bonus.

[leihn]

Aside from the minimal bonus of saving players from themselves, it's not the crappy hybrid builds that people were trying to get rid of. It's the OP hybrids that were the problem, but you can't have one without the inevitability of the other. Also, getting rid of hybrids was not the only reason for the change, but it was a big bonus.

 

So the predominant argument that hybrids are bad and players who play hybrid are bad is unfounded then, the real problem is that hybrids were too good?

 

Like it doesn't really affect me either way, I have the same 23-24 talents I had before with the same 7 utility talents that I can choose from, the only thing it saves me is convenience when I switch utilities depending on boss encounters and don't ahve to redo my whole tree or action bars.

 

But I think there needs to be more solid justification for a change that took things away from people who liked them for minimum benefit or impact to those that didn't.

[MillionsKNives]

So the predominant argument that hybrids are bad and players who play hybrid are bad is unfounded then, the real problem is that hybrids were too good?

 

Like it doesn't really affect me either way, I have the same 23-24 talents I had before with the same 7 utility talents that I can choose from, the only thing it saves me is convenience when I switch utilities depending on boss encounters and don't ahve to redo my whole tree or action bars.

 

But I think there needs to be more solid justification for a change that took things away from people who liked them for minimum benefit or impact to those that didn't.

 

Not at all. Hybrids are awful, play terribly, and would be a large liability for anyone who grouped with them...except when they're not. Then they are gods. Until the devs find out about it and they're nerfed into the ground again.

 

And again, since you failed to see it the first time, killing hybrids wasn't the only reason for the change.

[leihn]

Not at all. Hybrids are awful, play terribly, and would be a large liability for anyone who grouped with them...except when they're not. Then they are gods. Until the devs find out about it and they're nerfed into the ground again.

 

And again, since you failed to see it the first time, killing hybrids wasn't the only reason for the change.

 

What are the other reasons?

[Max_Killjoy]

As long as someone with a hybrid build wasn't grouped, it was always 100% entirely meaningless how they were built.

 

Unless of course you're one of these tools who thinks that people need to be "saved from themselves" and takes dire moral offense at someone "doing it wrong".