Alignment system - The illusion of choice.

[Kaesho]

I have no strong feelings on this subject one way or the other.

Yay for morally neutral characters \o/

[Alexhrazz]

I have read the posts... and im intrigued over the debate of this.

 

It makes me think of something.... as a player of Mass Effect... most of Shepard's choices were never based on really 'good' or 'bad'... but on what was important to the player and what they thought was the best course of action.

 

Instead of Light and Dark, there were Paragon and Renegade, both were seperate stacks that didn't cross each other so to speak. I.e you cannot make up a renegade action by taking a paragon action and vice versa.

 

However Light and Dark struggle with each other. An evil action will hurt your good actions, while a good action will make up for an evil action you did.

 

Also to note... Paragon and Renegade didn't neccessarily mean good or evil respectively. Renegade stood more for the attitude of taking no prisoners and a very militaristic mental state and such while Paragon was more selfless and compassionate to others. Atleast how I see it.

 

Okay... perhaps im a little rambley or philosophing a bit too much, in that case forgive me.

 

 

By the way, I also dug up some info about the Gray Jedi: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Gray_Jedi

[VisionStorm]

I agree with the OP. I've been enjoying the multiple dialog options we get, even though I sometimes dont entirely get why some of those options provide light or dark side points. But alignment becomes an issue where they add mechanics into the picture and start setting limits to your character based on how much points of either side they have accumulated.

 

There is also the issue of alignement being subjective. So sometimes we may not even agree that a certain alignment shift is the right one given our decisions. I got light side points for helping a woman decieve her husband, for example, which seems pretty dark side to me.

 

I think alignment should be an aesthetic choice. It should only open up alternate dialogs or mission paths, or affect your companions affection for you, not indirectly limit your stats by gating useful gear behind the alignment system. Especially orange gear, since appearance customization options are limited enough in this game without gating some of the gear that allows it as well.

Edited December 25, 2011 by VisionStorm

[Sarfux]

you do realize that what you say early on in the game DOES IN FACT, have effects on what you CAN say later on in the game. I have seen this first hand!

[Sarfux]

I agree with the OP. I've been enjoying the multiple dialog options we get, even though I sometimes dont entirely get why some of those options provide light or dark side points (I got light side points for helping a woman decieve her husband, for example, which seems pretty dark side to me). But alignment becomes an issue where they add mechanics into the picture and start setting limits to your character based on how much points of either side they have accumulated.

 

I think alignment should be an aesthetic choice. It should only open up alternate dialogs or mission paths, or affect your companions affection for you, not indirectly limit your stats by gating useful gear behind the alignment system. Especially orange gear, since appearance customization options are limited enough in this game without gating some of the gear that allows it as well.

 

It does open up alternate dialogue choices that you can say..depending on what points you have and what you choose to say earlier on. That's the whole thing people aren't seeing. It IS like that..I have seen it first hand, it does have an effect on mission paths and affection loss/gain..AND has an effect on the armor. I have seen it first hand on some missions I did over and over with other characters..I chose something different than the last time, and because of that, the choice was NOT there to say the next thing I just said before on the different character. Trust me dude...it's just like a typical BioWare dialogue choice wheel.

[cradleofphilth]

I keep hearing about the so-called "grey jedi".

 

Let me ask you a question.

 

Are these grey jedi saving babies one day and then murdering them the next?

 

Or do they act like light jedi who simply don't listen to everything the coucil tells them?

 

Qui-Gon was a grey jedi. They sit on the borderline of the truth, not blindly walking into **** like the Sith or Jedi.

[LordJestR]

BW already said they are aware and will be implementing more neutral gear. Posting about how BW has wronged you personally just seemed so over dramatic.

[Arumat]

Which begs the questions, why is there no neutral gear? I dont mean grey, i mean gear that has no alignment requirement at all being sold at all levels from the vendors? As it stands now, if you want to maintain your gear through commendations and quests you have to either press 1 for every response, or press 3 for every response, there is no in between.

 

Bioware this needs to be changed, Alignment as far as i can tell is purely cosmetic, as it should be, and if you are making it cosmetic you need to account for all variables. You can easily fix this problem by adding in gear that has no alignment to go alongside the gear that has the dark side 1 to 5 requirements.

 

I really cant wait to start raiding, so i can deal with the dark / light 5 gear.

 

Buy the gear even though you don't require the LS/DS alignment, take the mods out and put them in your corrent orange gear. Presto. Theres that same gear just looks like your same armor.

 

This is assuming you can modify something you don't have alignment for, which I am sure you can.

 

The neutral gear is there. It's called what you are wearing. now non orange on the other hand thats different but I myself havent seen any non orange LD/DS alignment gear.

[LordJestR]

Qui-Gon was a grey jedi. They sit on the borderline of the truth, not blindly walking into **** like the Sith or Jedi.

 

And he got killed by Darth Maul which proves his equipment is inferior. Heck even Obi Wan has better stuff than him.

[JediNg]

No? I've seen plenty of non-alignment gear. You're being very selective.

[Eegore]

Why isn't neutrality rewarded?

 

Because in the whole light side/dark side conflict, there is no middle ground. It's a conflict of absolutes.

 

Reward neutrality and you might as well pull the system entirely.

 

 

Agreed. Everyone talks about "grey jedi" and such but from a storytelling good vs evil perspective the Grey ideas are less emotion invoking.

 

Imagine if Darth Vader was all neutral about stuff in the original films.

 

Emperor: Kill the jedi!

 

Vader: Eh maybe later, I mean if I run into one.

[silverdanta]

Why isn't neutrality rewarded?

 

Because in the whole light side/dark side conflict, there is no middle ground. It's a conflict of absolutes.

 

Reward neutrality and you might as well pull the system entirely.

 

James Ohlen has already said they are working on neutral gear. They had planned to put the gear in but did not like some aspects of the gear and the way the system worked. We will see it soon. And the way he defined soon, not as long as a year but not as close as a month lol. If your curious where I got the info, head over to darth hater, they had a podcast interview with him.

[Wolfeisberg]

Why isn't neutrality rewarded?

 

Because in the whole light side/dark side conflict, there is no middle ground. It's a conflict of absolutes.

 

Reward neutrality and you might as well pull the system entirely.

 

You haven't played Knights of the Old Rupublic 1 and 2 have you?

 

SPOILER ALERT ABOUT THE 2 GAMES

 

Reven, the character you play in KOTOR 1, was basically a Gray Jedi. How? Because Reven discovered that the Sith would one day come back and he/she felt that the republic was not ready for them, he/she felt like that only through battle can the republic become strong enough to fight against the True Sith. So he/she started another war and made himself a Sith Lord, he felt like that either the republic would become stronger through this, or his own order would be victorious and be able to fight off the True Sith when they arrived.

 

A Grey Jedi is really someone who would use any means for the greater good, if that means going Dark Side and killing a bunch of innocents, they would do that.

 

 

If Reven didn't do what he did, then it would have been quite possible that when the Sith arrived, they would have wiped out all of the republic, instead of being in a peace treaty.

[Foxtrotmikelima]

I keep hearing about the so-called "grey jedi".

 

Let me ask you a question.

 

Are these grey jedi saving babies one day and then murdering them the next?

 

Or do they act like light jedi who simply don't listen to everything the coucil tells them?

 

 

According to The Jedi Path book. Sentinels are actually the 'Grey Jedi'. They take on the missions the Consulars and Guardians dont want to do.

 

Atleast according to this book. The Sentinels are kindof the SF of Jedi. They specialize in things like Cybertech, Slicing, Security Expert, and an Elite group known as the Shadows. A group of Sentinels whos primary job is to hunt down Sith where they hide. Sentinels are known to make decisions that are not completely in line with the Jedi Code. The situations the Sentinels get themselves into require them to seek answers outside of common Jedi Practices.

 

The Grey Jedi are notorious for accepting missions but in many ways despise the leadership they answer to for their very extreme views that dont always reflect the realities of the Galaxy they live in. The Jedi Council is actually very nervous about these types as theyre the most likely to fall to the darkside wether it be as a Dark Jedi or to the Sith.

[Liaskar]

Not all gear with alignment restrictions say "Requires Light 1 or higher", etc. Some of them say that they cannot be used by someone with too high of an alignment one way or the other. So a benefit of being neutral is being able to use any gear that forbids certain alignments.

[Bgiffo]

You haven't played Knights of the Old Rupublic 1 and 2 have you?

 

SPOILER ALERT ABOUT THE 2 GAMES

 

Reven, the character you play in KOTOR 1, was basically a Gray Jedi. How? Because Reven discovered that the Sith would one day come back and he/she felt that the republic was not ready for them, he/she felt like that only through battle can the republic become strong enough to fight against the True Sith. So he/she started another war and made himself a Sith Lord, he felt like that either the republic would become stronger through this, or his own order would be victorious and be able to fight off the True Sith when they arrived.

 

A Grey Jedi is really someone who would use any means for the greater good, if that means going Dark Side and killing a bunch of innocents, they would do that.

 

 

If Reven didn't do what he did, then it would have been quite possible that when the Sith arrived, they would have wiped out all of the republic, instead of being in a peace treaty.

 

That's not what happened. Revan was good. Then he became evil. Then he was goodish, and then he was darkish.

 

In any case, a Gray Jedi/Sith is someone who adheres to the basic principles of their code, while remaining unbound by certain extreme aspects.

Edited December 25, 2011 by Bgiffo

[Squiddish]

To everyone saying its not possible to add a Gray option: stop and think for a second.

 

If you get over 1k toward the Light, you get LS I.

1k toward the Dark, DS I.

 

Now, why couldn't you reward middle ground? If you have 2k total points and you aren't 1k in either direction, you get Gray I. 4k total points and you aren't 1.5k in either direction, Gray II (would override LS/DS I since you are obviously more gray. Qualifying for a Gray would always override LS/DS).

 

This is a very simple solution that allows people to play the way they want. I want my Trooper to be gray, but he is LS simply because the game FORCES you to pick LS or DS. Middle ground is penalized with no rewards.

[Sardoni]

The PVP gear doesn't have a light/dark restriction. Neither does the PVE gear. It's just the commendation vendor with certain items on certain planets.

 

The illusion of meaningful choice indeed exists, but there is multiple types of gear available at max level with no light/dark requirement.

[LocoJediman]

easy and quick solution:

 

remove "must be DS 1/LS 1" requirements and make it a number system. For example, Lightsaber of Awesome requires 500 DS points. Easy. I mean the game already keeps track of it..

[Odiusphate]

So I have to agree with the OP here. As I go further and further into the game, I am being more and more restricted by being nuetral. I'm not trying to be neutral, I just kill people that deserve to die, and I help people that deserve help. I was cool with not being able to access the vendors because there are gear out there I can use instead as a workaround... until today.

 

I pop open my character sheet. Level 24 Jedi Guardian. Hmmm... no relics on me yet at all. So I jump on the GTN and check it out. Woot!!! 6 pages of relics!! Then it hits me that they ALL require LSII or DSII or above.

 

As I see it, I could get an additional +28 endurance if I was DSII (+14 in each slot). But now I'm stuck with two empty slots because I'm only +900 LS. I know BW is going to add this stuff in the future, but for the time being I'm gimped. I had so much faith they wouldn't overlook such an obvious flaw in a game that prides itself on letting players live their own story... I really hope this is fixed soon.

[Nizzemancer]

I keep hearing about the so-called "grey jedi".

 

Let me ask you a question.

 

Are these grey jedi saving babies one day and then murdering them the next?

 

Or do they act like light jedi who simply don't listen to everything the coucil tells them?

 

The first option.

 

That's how my jedi roll.

[DeaconX]

The second alignment became a restricting factor for gear, the freedom of choice was ripped out of the 'role play' for players.

 

It became something that essentially penalizes a player for the decisions they've made.

[Squiddish]

The second alignment became a restricting factor for gear, the freedom of choice was ripped out of the 'role play' for players.

 

It became something that essentially penalizes a player for the decisions they've made.

 

Its hardly decisions when you're basically required to just click LS/DS options to rack up one type of points :/

[Odiusphate]

Its hardly decisions when you're basically required to just click LS/DS options to rack up one type of points :/

 

Actually, a decision is all that it is because it is just about what you click- this is exactly why relevant gear (ie anything other than social/cosmetic) shouldn't be tied to it. Maximizing stats should be earned though completing quests, downing bosses, and grinding some tokens. The fact that I haven't found a single relic to equip because of which button I clicked on the choice wheel is just dumb.

 

They need to either not have gear tied to things like this or to have enough gear for all choices so you aren't put in a situation where you have to decide a certain way just because you know you won't be able to equip an entire slot.

[deserttfoxx]

easy and quick solution:

 

remove "must be DS 1/LS 1" requirements and make it a number system. For example, Lightsaber of Awesome requires 500 DS points. Easy. I mean the game already keeps track of it..

 

With some tweaks, this could work actually.