Need better defensive CDs

[egriz]

This is an issue in ranked PVP, where the team doesn't have a tank or healer.

I play a vanguard dps on The Red Eclipse server and most of the time there aren't any/many tanks or healers in the queue so it ends up in a 4v4 dps ranked arena. The problem is that compared to most of the classes, vanguards and commandos have really bad defensive CDs, so they tend to be targeted first. While the commandos can at least kite the opponents and heal themselves for a short time, vanguards can't really do that..

 

How usually (I mean almost every match) things go (and this is still a good scenario):

-I see the opponents getting closer so I use Adrenaline rush.

-The fight starts and the opponents start hitting / stunning me.

-If I'm still alive and not in stun, I pop my reactive shield and adrenal. (not joking about the being alive part.. had some matches where 2 shadows popped up behind me and before I could do anything they killed me.. couldn't even use Tenacity and they hit so hard that Adrenaline Rush didn't even activate being under 35% hp.. they just killed me with a huge blow from 40-50% hp)

-Only 2-3 secs went by and Adrenaline Rush is active, giving me +30% dmg reduction being on the assault tree, so altogether I am around 100% dmg reduction for the next 6 secs (unless I got an armor reduction).

-Adrenaline Rush wears off, I use my medpac and Diversion.

-3 secs later I am dead.

In this time a can't really do massive damage, I am busy surviving and it seems it isn't long enough for my teammates to cripple the opponents either..

 

You could say I'm not using my CDs properly, but had a few cases where the Reactive Shield and Adrenaline Rush together weren't able to keep me alive, if they do, after they wear off, using just the adrenal doesn't make nearly any difference.. so I just use all of them together to have at least a few seconds when I can be sure that I will not die.

I have 2018 expertise, fully optimized Brutalizer set with augments, so it isn't even the gear's fault.

 

When there are 1 or more stealthers, staying alive is even harder.. since I have no idea where they are, I can't just use my CDs as a precaution for the incoming dmg and since they usually start with stuns too, I need to use Tenacity in order to be able to use my CDs to stay alive for at least as long as doing a single damaging skill.

 

And it really isn't just me, had teammate vanguards and opponent powertechs killed the same way, basically in a GCD. When that powertech died, he was targetting me and getting really close to 30m, so I went behind a rock on the Makeb arena (so I don't get pulled), while a shadow and sage went into range. I saw his hp drop, so I jumped over the rock to start shooting, but when I clicked hammer shot, he was already dead. He died literally in a GCD..

 

Tactics tree has better survivability (+30% dmg reduction while stunned, +30% aoe dmg red.), but I can't do much more damage with that either. (still die quite fast)

And it looks like that in 3.0, survivability will still be an issue compared to the others, we could heal ourselves with shoulder cannon and use Adrenaline Rush while stunned - if we put points in these in the utilities - but then we won't be able to put points in the +45% speed bonus for Hold the Line for kiting..

And the gap between the 2 talent trees will be bigger too: since in Tactics you have +3 shoulder cannons, you can heal +15% hp and the de-taunt's +25% def chance will become +30%, but instead of leaving it at the weaker Assault (Plasmatech) tree, Tactics will get it..

So yeah.. something must change.

[egriz]

Ok, forget what I said about having a few secs of guaranteed survivability while using every DCD and adrenal together.. had a match today where there was a slinger opponent, who used the armor reduction debuff on me, which is apparantly high enough that even though adrenaline rush, reactive shield and adrenal was popped, I had to use my medpac because my hp was dropping down like crazy.. (I was at 8% already even though adrenaline rush was triggered when I entered the 35%hp "phase").

There was also a combat senti opponent, maybe he used the armor penetrating ability too, but it's still not an excuse!

 

Using all the available survival skills do not protect me while a guardian dps don't just survive with his self heal for a time, but heal himself to full even with 4 ppl attacking him. Ridiculous..

 

If someone has experienced these problems, please speak up! I can't believe that I am the only vanguard who feels that something isn't right and must be changed.

Edited November 12, 2014 by egriz

[Vember]

Tactics tree has better survivability (+30% dmg reduction while stunned, +30% aoe dmg red.), but I can't do much more damage with that either. (still die quite fast)

And it looks like that in 3.0, survivability will still be an issue compared to the others, we could heal ourselves with shoulder cannon and use Adrenaline Rush while stunned - if we put points in these in the utilities - but then we won't be able to put points in the +45% speed bonus for Hold the Line for kiting..

And the gap between the 2 talent trees will be bigger too: since in Tactics you have +3 shoulder cannons, you can heal +15% hp and the de-taunt's +25% def chance will become +30%, but instead of leaving it at the weaker Assault (Plasmatech) tree, Tactics will get it..

So yeah.. something must change.

 

On top of that Plasmatech (Assault) in 3.0 is losing all of their mobility to Tactics and gaining none of Tactics defensive abilities. Now all of your damage and utility is going to be tied to a channeled attack that requires you to be standing still, no more HiB proc, and still no defensive cooldowns. You'll pretty much be forced into taking the two heroic talents for whatever our Kolto Overload talent is called, and the shoulder cannon heals, which means you can't get the speed increase for Hold the Line.

 

I'm excited about the 3.0 discipline structure changes, but for the spec itself this just looks like a giant step backwards, especially for pvp.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Vember

[Slurmez]

On top of that Plasmatech (Assault) in 3.0 i losing all of their mobility to Tactics and gaining none of Tactics defensive abilities. Now all of your damage and utility is going to be tied to a channeled attack that requires you to be standing still, no more HiB proc, and still no defensive cooldowns. You'll pretty much be forced into taking the two heroic talents for whatever our Kolto Overload talent is called, and the shoulder cannon heals, which means you can't get the speed increase for Hold the Line.

 

I'm excited about the 3.0 discipline structure changes, but for the spec itself this just looks like a giant step backwards, especially for pvp.

 

"Assault" losing all their mobility? You know theres a 15% speed boost passive and hold the line boost by 45% in the utilities right? They also gain significant energy regeneration.

[Vember]

"Assault" losing all their mobility? You know theres a 15% speed boost passive and hold the line boost by 45% in the utilities right? They also gain significant energy regeneration.

 

All of your utility is now tied to Pulse Cannon, instead of Ion Pulse and HiB, which means, while you can still maintain DoT pressure, your bread and butter damage is now coming from a channeled attack, which requires you to be standing still to execute. That means less mobility, and no dcd's to compensate. At least, that's how it looks to me in its current iteration, going by the livestream and Dulfy's calculator.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Vember

[Zoom_VI]

Both DPS specs have more than enough offensive potency to compensate for the lack of DcD. Hence "glass cannon." Powertechs will always be glass cannons since it would be as unbalanced as hell to have a class that had the burst (new tactics) or the cleave + sustained (plasmatech) while still being tanky.

 

Also the only DPS spec in the game that is tankier than PT is the warrior AC, everything else is squishier.

[teclado]

Yes, sins and stuns are OP. The only dps spec that I think has better defensive cooldowns than VG/PT are guardians and juggernauts. No matter what dps class you are, if you get jumped by a pair of sins and you have no tank / healer, you are history. The only exception to that rule is guard/jug.

 

If you know that the other team has stealth, sometimes you can anticipate where they are and drop a stealth scan.

Edited November 13, 2014 by teclado

[Zoom_VI]

All of your utility is now tied to Pulse Cannon, instead of Ion Pulse and HiB, which means, while you can still maintain DoT pressure, your bread and butter damage is now coming from a channeled attack, which requires you to be standing still to execute. That means less mobility, and no dcd's to compensate. At least, that's how it looks to me in its current iteration, going by the livestream and Dulfy's calculator.

 

Stop comparing Assault to Plasmatech. Plasmatech is new Tactics, the gameplay is the same, the functionality is the same. Tactics will have Pyro's old gameplay.

[Vember]

Stop comparing Assault to Plasmatech. Plasmatech is new Tactics, the gameplay is the same, the functionality is the same. Tactics will have Pyro's old gameplay.

 

I'm not, i'm comparing this DoT spec to the 3.0 DoT spec, I've made that pretty clear. Tactis is not a DoT spec, never has been, and won't be in 3.0. Assault is currently the DoT pressure spec with high mobility and low defense..in 3.0 Assault is going away and Plasmatech will be the DoT pressure spec with low mobility and low defense. I play Assault because i love DoT pressure specs, which is exactly what it is in its current state. Tactics is not, and won't be in 3.0.

 

And honestly, I don't understand why keep saying this. Everything about Plasmatech is the same as Assault with the sole exception being the loss of all the utility tied to HiB which is now being tied to Pulse Cannon. My problem with this is that we sacrificed a long range moveable proc for a channeled stationary attack, to a higher defense dps tree and yet gained none of their defense.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Vember

[TACeMossie]

I'm not, i'm comparing this DoT spec to the 3.0 DoT spec, I've made that pretty clear. Tactis is not a DoT spec, never has been, and won't be in 3.0. Assault is currently the DoT pressure spec with high mobility and low defense..in 3.0 Assault is going away and Plasmatech will be the DoT pressure spec with low mobility and low defense. I play Assault because i love DoT pressure specs, which is exactly what it is in its current state. Tactics is not, and won't be in 3.0.

 

And honestly, I don't understand why keep saying this. Everything about Plasmatech is the same as Assault with the sole exception being the loss of all the utility tied to HiB which is now being tied to Pulse Cannon. My problem with this is that we sacrificed a long range moveable proc for a channeled stationary attack, to a higher defense dps tree and yet gained none of their defense.

 

If you want to play the HiB Resetting DoT Spec, The commando forums are that way ->

 

If you want a mobile burst spec, then play Tactics in 3.0

If you want a sustained DoT spec, then play Plasmatech in 3.0

 

Also note that in order to enable the use of both DoTs and the HiB reset, something had to give. In the case of mandos, the ICD of Ionic Accelerator was increased, slowing the whole spec down.

 

BTW due to changes revealed on the live stream, its obvious that both Assault AND Gunnery are very mobile long-ranged DPS options in 3.0, so dont go complaining about mobility to me.

[AxeDragoneth]

If you're blowing all of your cooldowns at once, you're doing it wrong.

Don't charge in first knowing you will be the first target.

Cycle cooldowns. Your kolto will refresh roughly every 40s of constant pressure, if I remember the math right.

Get better at stealth scanning. Learn when Tenacity will truly be worth it.

You forgot to mention Chaff Flare.

Anticipate your enemy's strategy before you even consider your own.

[PBoba]

If someone has experienced these problems, please speak up! I can't believe that I am the only vanguard who feels that something isn't right and must be changed.

 

Not just you. you have to be all sorts of lucky, if the first focus target, and have a good team who might care bout keepin you alive to last too long in all dps ranked.

 

I think the only thing that might improve this aspect of yolo queue is a longer TTK with it (looking) like health goes up to 50k at level 60, but with similar damage output as at 55. This just from dev streaks, i dunno.

[PBoba]

If you're blowing all of your cooldowns at once, you're doing it wrong.

Don't charge in first knowing you will be the first target.

Cycle cooldowns. Your kolto will refresh roughly every 40s of constant pressure, if I remember the math right.

Get better at stealth scanning. Learn when Tenacity will truly be worth it.

You forgot to mention Chaff Flare.

Anticipate your enemy's strategy before you even consider your own.

 

All true. But sometimes Yolo teammates are all like "charge"! And the leapers and the stealth are away and lil ol Vanguard is chuggin around alone.

 

Most of your advice boils down to a lot of experience. The best PT/VGs, like all ACS, I guess, are tigers who earned their stripes.

[AxeDragoneth]

All true. But sometimes Yolo teammates are all like "charge"! And the leapers and the stealth are away and lil ol Vanguard is chuggin around alone.

 

Most of your advice boils down to a lot of experience. The best PT/VGs, like all ACS, I guess, are tigers who earned their stripes.

 

So let the leapers go in and attract the attention. Meanwhile the PT can ramp up with their dots and burst their way into the battle on their own terms, instead of being broken like glass before they can fire their cannons.

 

While I agree that PT tanks require an additional cooldown, I think the issue here is more of strategy..

Edited November 13, 2014 by AxeDragoneth

[egriz]

If you're blowing all of your cooldowns at once, you're doing it wrong.

Don't charge in first knowing you will be the first target.

Cycle cooldowns. Your kolto will refresh roughly every 40s of constant pressure, if I remember the math right.

Get better at stealth scanning. Learn when Tenacity will truly be worth it.

You forgot to mention Chaff Flare.

Anticipate your enemy's strategy before you even consider your own.

 

I never "charge into battle", I am well aware of my weaknesses, so I always try to get out of sight at the beginning, maybe they will start with someone else or at least will take them a bit more time to get to me. The problem is that whatever happens, as soon as I get into range, they will switch targets to me.

Recorded a match where my shadow teammate thought it would be a great idea to run at them alone, leaving us 3 behind. We reached the opponents when he was around 30% hp and instead of finishing him, they switched to me. Watching the video back after the match, from the ops frame it was clear that while I was alive, they didn't even hit the others (only what they got from the aoes) and only after I was killed did they continue hitting the shadow (still around 25-30%).

 

And about rotating the cooldowns.. I never said anything about normal warzones. Of course I rotate them there and I have absolutely no problems, I am usually among the highest damage dealer players (if not the first).

My only problem is with solo ranked (with 4v4 dps, which is the most common match on my server), where there is no way to rotate them.. as I said I die really quickly, if I don't use them all at once, I just die without even using that little extra defense they give. And I've yet to see adrenaline rush refreshing itself, there's no chance it would happen under normal circumstances.

[egriz]

Yes, sins and stuns are OP. The only dps spec that I think has better defensive cooldowns than VG/PT are guardians and juggernauts. No matter what dps class you are, if you get jumped by a pair of sins and you have no tank / healer, you are history. The only exception to that rule is guard/jug.

 

If you know that the other team has stealth, sometimes you can anticipate where they are and drop a stealth scan.

 

Let's not forget the shadow's resilience, battle readiness healing, phase walk, the purge ability along with scoundrels + I consider stealthing a def ability too.. they start the battle how /whenever they want, in almost every situation giving the first hits and never receiving them.. plus escaping through stealth means they can restore their hp and reenter the fight again..

The gunslinger's immunity to every crowd control effect, rolling, slowing, pushing, isn't bad either (plus he can get dmg reductions, reset some of the dcds on aoe talent, ...).

Along with vanguards and commandos the only dps class that doesn't really has good dcds is the sage, although that 1 that he has is quite decent (and also has self heal and bubble).

[Hei_Atzfel]

Yes, sins and stuns are OP. The only dps spec that I think has better defensive cooldowns than VG/PT are guardians and juggernauts. No matter what dps class you are, if you get jumped by a pair of sins and you have no tank / healer, you are history. The only exception to that rule is guard/jug.

 

If you know that the other team has stealth, sometimes you can anticipate where they are and drop a stealth scan.

 

You realize that sins have a single hardstun right? Low slash is a MEZZ. We can't harm you while keeping you controlled with that move (which happens to be the only CC we have that is even close to being spammable"). Besides, if two of ANY dps jump a lone person without tank/heal aid, you're going to die. That in no way makes sins OP.

[Vember]

If you want to play the HiB Resetting DoT Spec, The commando forums are that way ->

 

 

Yea, except I'm playing that exact spec as a Vanguard right now, Sherlock.

 

Also note that in order to enable the use of both DoTs and the HiB reset, something had to give.

 

How so? That's exactly what we're playing RIGHT NOW and we are from OP in any way, shape or form. That doesn't make any sense at all. The only change I can really see that might be cause for this is the increased speed in Hold the Line, which most Plasmatechs can't afford to take anyway, and I'd gladly give that up to avoid a revamp to the entire spec.

 

BTW due to changes revealed on the live stream, its obvious that both Assault AND Gunnery are very mobile long-ranged DPS options in 3.0, so dont go complaining about mobility to me.

 

No spec tied to Pulse Cannon is exactly "mobile", unless its not a heavily used ability. When 3.0 drops, most of your damaging utility will be meshed with it, which makes it a large part of your rotation.

 

To be honest, this whole thing is reminiscent of the 2.0 Shadow Tank changes that completely destroyed the spec in pvp.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Vember

[Mularky]

No spec tied to Pulse Cannon is exactly "mobile", unless its not a heavily used ability. When 3.0 drops, most of your damaging utility will be meshed with it, which makes it a large part of your rotation.

 

So you're not considering Marauders and Jugs mobile with their 3 second ravage?

[Vember]

So you're not considering Marauders and Jugs mobile with their 3 second ravage?

 

Well i've only played Annihilation and Vengeance, and neither have a large amount of utility tied into Ravage. Annihilation has none whatsoever.

 

And to add, Annihilation is probably the least mobile spec in the game due to their obnoxious susceptibility to CC

Edited November 14, 2014 by Vember

[AxeDragoneth]

I never "charge into battle", I am well aware of my weaknesses, so I always try to get out of sight at the beginning, maybe they will start with someone else or at least will take them a bit more time to get to me. The problem is that whatever happens, as soon as I get into range, they will switch targets to me.

Recorded a match where my shadow teammate thought it would be a great idea to run at them alone, leaving us 3 behind. We reached the opponents when he was around 30% hp and instead of finishing him, they switched to me. Watching the video back after the match, from the ops frame it was clear that while I was alive, they didn't even hit the others (only what they got from the aoes) and only after I was killed did they continue hitting the shadow (still around 25-30%).

 

And about rotating the cooldowns.. I never said anything about normal warzones. Of course I rotate them there and I have absolutely no problems, I am usually among the highest damage dealer players (if not the first).

My only problem is with solo ranked (with 4v4 dps, which is the most common match on my server), where there is no way to rotate them.. as I said I die really quickly, if I don't use them all at once, I just die without even using that little extra defense they give. And I've yet to see adrenaline rush refreshing itself, there's no chance it would happen under normal circumstances.

Those first two sentences were assumptions based on your original post.

 

That match you mentioned sounds strange. Did the sin stealth out or phasewalk before they jumped to you? Most people don't stop hitting the thing that yolo'd into execute range so fast in hopes of killing the glass cannon.

 

I wasn't talking about warzones, either. I've had Kolto reset to where I used it three times in a single match, and if we hadn't won when we did it was ten seconds from a fourth activation. Stressful focus, but that was in group ranked so I had a tank and healer with me [very rare for me not to be tanking]. In soloranked 4v4 dps matches I've seen Kolto go off twice on numerous occasions, both on my side of the field and the enemy's. Popping it early in anticipation of getting focused is wise. Getting jumped by two sins will never end well for any dps class sans vengjugg. A cooldown is almost guaranteed to be blown through it and you better hope a teammate can save you or your carbonize+hydraulics are enough to bide time with. The hardest thing about the class is knowing when to use which cooldowns versus who to the point of not thinking about it because you have to process enough to continue your offensive rotation while keeping yourself up. We don't have a lot to work with, and Pyro actually has more defensive capability than AP and ST. Pyro has dot reduction in this dot-heavy meta, damage reduction tied to kolto, and chaff flare, all things the other two trees lack. Tanks really just have higher health pools since our mitigation is laughable in pvp, and the best thing AP has going for it [-30% when stunned & vs AoE] only made them gods when smash was relevant. The shield reset is nice for it to come up every 40s like Pyro Kolto, but I'd rather the kolto.

 

Give it time and keep practicing, just know that blowing everything at once is never a good idea. Because as you said, you will die after that godmode is over, all you've done is taken out the variables.

 

Let's not forget the shadow's resilience, battle readiness healing, phase walk, the purge ability along with scoundrels + I consider stealthing a def ability too.. they start the battle how /whenever they want, in almost every situation giving the first hits and never receiving them.. plus escaping through stealth means they can restore their hp and reenter the fight again..

The gunslinger's immunity to every crowd control effect, rolling, slowing, pushing, isn't bad either (plus he can get dmg reductions, reset some of the dcds on aoe talent, ...).

Along with vanguards and commandos the only dps class that doesn't really has good dcds is the sage, although that 1 that he has is quite decent (and also has self heal and bubble).

 

Unload, Rapid shots, and [i think] Railshot all get through Shroud. Not many people know this so I figured I'd share.

Shadow/Sins will almost always get the first shot and there's not much to avoid it besides stealth scanning or blowing your DFA for a second stealth scan. Learn common places for sins to place phase walk and scan there. Then, if you can discover where they placed it, try to fight near that spot so they can't get away when they release it. Make sure you tell your team to hit sins when they come out so they aren't left alone. Your team's offense is your best defense.

 

 

Koozie made a guide for Pyro in these subforums and the best part about it is he has general examples of what to do versus each class. I recommend giving it a read. The best ways to learn are through experience and research. ;]

[TACeMossie]

Well i've only played Annihilation and Vengeance, and neither have a large amount of utility tied into Ravage. Annihilation has none whatsoever.

 

Vengeance

 

neither have a large amount of utility tied into Ravage

 

Guys guys guys

 

I played an Assault Spec Vanguard in 2.3 -> 2.10, and High Impact Bolt is USELESS for the spec!

Edited November 14, 2014 by TACeMossie

[Ryuku-sama]

Guys guys guys

 

I played an Assault Spec Vanguard in 2.3 -> 2.10, and High Impact Bolt is USELESS for the spec!

 

I see what you did there

[Vember]

Guys guys guys

 

I played an Assault Spec Vanguard in 2.3 -> 2.10, and High Impact Bolt is USELESS for the spec!

 

Vengeance has one ability that procs Ravage high up in the tree. Ravage does nothing else in their skill tree. Derp.

 

Besides, the comment was about mobility and Pulse Cannon, hardly any relation between Ravage and High Impact Bolt. But keep up the good work!

Edited November 14, 2014 by Vember

[egriz]

Let me say it again: the problem comes when there are 2+ dps opponents focusing me, never had problems with team ranked because of the full healer + tank group. But whenever they have more dps and less ppl in my group to assist me, I am doomed.

 

About that shadow.. no he did not vanish, did not go away, he was like 10 metres away from me the whole time and still they did not finish him.

 

I presume you play on a PVP server? Or at least a server where there are quite a few ppl queueing? On The Red Eclipse (at least in that time periode when I queue) the same 20.. max 30 people queue, most of the opponents or teammates we know or at least heard their names before. And most of the players are playing shadow/sin, scoundrel/op, guardian/jugg, senti/mara, there are less slingers, sages/sorcs, some vanguards and very few commandos.

 

Asked a few of them and they said there's nothing really that one could do about it.. the order they think a team should eliminate the targets follows as: commando -> vanguard -> slinger/sage -> stealthers -> ... (at the end of the line) -> guardian (easier to kill -> harder to kill).

Basically because we rarely see a commando, a tank or a healer, they always end up focusing me.