CM Packs

[LordArtemis]

Perhaps, but folks could have a problem with many things game wise, first and foremost spending too much time playing the game.

 

But yes, freemium, or similar to freemium the way that cartel packs are set up is becoming a problem in the industry.

[tdmaha]

Perhaps, but folks could have a problem with many things game wise, first and foremost spending too much time playing the game.

 

But yes, freemium, or similar to freemium the way that cartel packs are set up is becoming a problem in the industry.

 

Not sure how Cartel Packs are becoming a "problem" for the industry.

 

1) You in no way shape or form have to buy them to advance in the game.

 

2) Nothing you buy in the game will advance you further in game then a current subscriber.

 

3) Everyrhing in then can be sold and bought on the GTN with in-game currency.

 

I don't see how cartel packs could be classified as a "problem".

[Foambreaker]

Not sure how Cartel Packs are becoming a "problem" for the industry.

 

1) You in no way shape or form have to buy them to advance in the game.

 

2) Nothing you buy in the game will advance you further in game then a current subscriber.

 

3) Everyrhing in then can be sold and bought on the GTN with in-game currency.

 

I don't see how cartel packs could be classified as a "problem".

 

He said "in" the industry, not "for" the industry. One is about us, the other is about the industry.

[leihn]

The Gachas in mobile games are more like gambling than cartel packs, A lot of them also offer more power than can normally be obtained in those games too so people have to roll against unknown odds to try and get good stuff for money. It's become a bit of a problem tbh, the common comparison is TCGs like Magic the Gathering, you pay to open packs, but the packs have a fixed ratio of rarities, even though not all cards of a given rarity are equivalent you know the odds of getting a specific rare or mythic rare in a given pack because the distribution and then card sets are free knowledge, this isn't necessarily the case in online gachas, if they wanted to they can significantly alter rarities of items found in these grab bags without any disclaimer to the public, it's a gray area in terms of whether it should have heavier regulation or not, because the psychological lure of chase items motivating people to dump cash is very close to gambling.

[Cernow]

The Gachas in mobile games are more like gambling than cartel packs, A lot of them also offer more power than can normally be obtained in those games too so people have to roll against unknown odds to try and get good stuff for money. It's become a bit of a problem tbh, the common comparison is TCGs like Magic the Gathering, you pay to open packs, but the packs have a fixed ratio of rarities, even though not all cards of a given rarity are equivalent you know the odds of getting a specific rare or mythic rare in a given pack because the distribution and then card sets are free knowledge, this isn't necessarily the case in online gachas, if they wanted to they can significantly alter rarities of items found in these grab bags without any disclaimer to the public, it's a gray area in terms of whether it should have heavier regulation or not, because the psychological lure of chase items motivating people to dump cash is very close to gambling.

 

Exactly. It needs better regulation. With a physical 'grab bag' product like trading cards the odds of obtaining a specific item are known. Then it's down to the buyer to decide if they feel those odds are fair and if they are willing to take their chance.

 

With virtual grab bags like the CM packs, the odds are not known. Bioware doesn't publish them and it would be very hard for players to work them out, other than subjectively by looking at what is available on the GTN or what players are saying about drop rates on the forums. So it is much much harder for players to make a judgement on what is fair (to them).

 

Some will say "it's just RNG". But is it? Is it true RNG (in as much as digital RNG ever can be) or weighted in some way? We have no way of knowing. This is what needs to change. There needs to be more transparency about what the odds are.

 

Or better still, ditch the grab bag concept and sell the items directly on the CM. Then we might actually get some properly designed items and less lazy reskins and fillers.

[Foambreaker]

Exactly. It needs better regulation. With a physical 'grab bag' product like trading cards the odds of obtaining a specific item are known. Then it's down to the buyer to decide if they feel those odds are fair and if they are willing to take their chance.

 

With virtual grab bags like the CM packs, the odds are not known. Bioware doesn't publish them and it would be very hard for players to work them out, other than subjectively by looking at what is available on the GTN or what players are saying about drop rates on the forums. So it is much much harder for players to make a judgement on what is fair (to them).

 

Some will say "it's just RNG". But is it? Is it true RNG (in as much as digital RNG ever can be) or weighted in some way? We have no way of knowing. This is what needs to change. There needs to be more transparency about what the odds are.

 

Or better still, ditch the grab bag concept and sell the items directly on the CM. Then we might actually get some properly designed items and less lazy reskins and fillers.

 

The existence of "Rare" and "Super Rare" imply it is weighted.

[TX_Angel]

So a 5 year old who plays those crane games for a stuff animal is GAMBLING?

 

That same 5 year old who puts a quarter (now probably $0.75) into the machine for a random sticker or toy is also GAMBLING?

 

The same 5 year old that picks out a pack of baseball cards or super hero cards hoping for a spefic card is also GAMBLING?

 

All three of these are a lot closer to cartel packs then playing Roulette.

 

Yes, in those cases, the 5 year old is gambling... Law enforcement ignores that because it is small and petty, and there is no mileage in trying to fight it...

[Cernow]

The existence of "Rare" and "Super Rare" imply it is weighted.

 

Yes of course. But to what extent?

 

The packs only say they cotnain "2 rare bonus items". There's no way of knowing what the chance is of getting a Super Rare compared to a Rare. And if you do get a Super Rare, what are the chances of getting a specific item? Are there equal chances of getting all possible Super Rare items available from the pack? Or are some Super Rares more rare than others (eg chest pieces vs bracers)? In other words, is there a double weighting going on?

 

No-one knows, other than Bioware of course.

[ZiggyTank]

This is the equivalent to trying to decry the evils of Magic the Gathering Booster Packs. For EVERY pack that has come out since their inception its always gone down like this.

 

Pack comes out, hype, first items hit the market and are expensive. Wait 3-5 days and see all the late pack openers flood the market and lower the prices. Wait 2 weeks and items stabilizes between the price ranges of "Ooo that's a bargain!" and "Da*** are you on!?"

 

Wait 1-2 packs later for a cheaper re-skin or color of the exact mount. Wait 6 months to a year for that same **** sell for 5-10 million,

 

That's the secret. If you really want something from the market, buy 2-3 packs and sell those to buy the actual item you want. OR do dailies. Here is a great rule of thumb to save money.

 

Do the dailies on Belsavis ONCE (even if you have a better way of making money), and I mean all of them. Every bonus mission, heroic, etc. and INTERNALIZE the tedium of doing them. Write down how many credits you got, and after sellings greens and repairing that tends to be between 200k-250k. Now, next time you see something shiny on the GTN that does NOTHING but change what the pixels look like on your screen, ask yourself...How many Belsavis do I need to do to get that item? 1-2 Belsavis? 8-16? For me, and a lot of people it put the value of my time and hard earned credits and real life money in perspective.

[Lotharofxev]

The Parent Company should just put every item in 'Collections' up for sale. Advertise the crap out of it and make it one weekend only.

 

Revan's complete set for 12,500 CC? People will buy it.

 

X-Rancor for one, two, three and four thousand apiece? People will buy them.

 

Oh, you don't have 12,500 CC? Not a problem. For the small charge of $29.95, we'll sell you digital currency so you can buy digital items.

[Trevor_the_Bruce]

I will never understand those who judge others based on how they spend their money. Sure call it gambling if that is what you need to do to justify degrading those that enjoy spending their money the way they see fit. Those people who choose to spend money on packs probably think those who spend $100s a night at the bar probably have issues too. But they dont go on some forums trying to claim how much better they are then those who spend tons of money at the bar...

 

I guess all those kids playing that crane game have a gambling problem too right?

 

I guess all those kids who put a quarter in one of those machines hoping for a specific sticker have a gambling problem too right?

 

Well said. I have no problems with the CM and buying packs, cause this game is a free to play MMO and as long as they keep on coming out with new content that is good, then I'll keep buying packs.I'd implore people to not belittle those who buy packs, cause it is those people that are funding future game content for a game we all love. Thats my 5 cents.

[Lotharofxev]

I'd implore people to not belittle those who buy packs, cause it is those people that are funding future game content for a game we all love

 

Not sure the amount of subscribers. If the numbers are true (as reported by the parent company), that over one million people log in every month to play SWTOR, let's assume that 50% are subscribers.

 

That's 500,000 x $13.00 (I'm assuming 6 mo subscription) or 6.5 million dollars a month. Times 12 months is 78 million dollars in subscription fees annually.

 

Gross in CY '12 and '13 was around 150 million dollars a year. (reported)

 

That means that in a worst case subscription, around half of their gross income is from the CM. However, they have also indicated (they being the Parent Company) that the preponderance of CPs and HCs sold are to subscribers.

 

Again, I'm going off publicly available data here and assuming (pretty much) worse-case to average subscriber numbers.

[Foambreaker]

I will never understand those who judge others based on how they spend their money. Sure call it gambling if that is what you need to do to justify degrading those that enjoy spending their money the way they see fit. Those people who choose to spend money on packs probably think those who spend $100s a night at the bar probably have issues too. But they dont go on some forums trying to claim how much better they are then those who spend tons of money at the bar...

 

I guess all those kids playing that crane game have a gambling problem too right?

 

I guess all those kids who put a quarter in one of those machines hoping for a specific sticker have a gambling problem too right?

 

No one has judged anyone.

[hadoken]

I'd implore people to not belittle those who buy packs, cause it is those people that are funding future game content for a game we all love.

 

Very very true. Without the CM this game would be shut down.

[Foambreaker]

Well said. I have no problems with the CM and buying packs, cause this game is a free to play MMO and as long as they keep on coming out with new content that is good, then I'll keep buying packs.I'd implore people to not belittle those who buy packs, cause it is those people that are funding future game content for a game we all love. Thats my 5 cents.

 

No one in this thread has belittled anyone.

[Andryah]

My wife and I think of this as gambling. We open some from time to time for fun but we recognize that due to the odds if you want a particular item GTN is the place to go.

 

Discussion:

Do you think people could have a problem with packs like some do with gambling?

 

Is your context here moral, legal, or both? Regardless.. there will be no consensus here as to is it or is it not gambling. Why? because everyone has a different definition (personally) as to what is or is not gambling.

 

These threads come up after just about every cartel pack release. Primarily because someone either goes nuts. over not getting the item they wanted from a pack, OR they see someone else making same play at going nuts and it spawns a desire to have a virtual ethics discussion on the internet about it.

 

Personally, I think you need to gain a sense of balance of perspective in your views. Technically, yes it is gambling. Then again... you openly face things everyday in your life that are technically "gambling". Like getting into your car in the morning and driving through traffic to work. It's a gamble if you arrive safely, on time, and without incident. Not only that.. but as the driver you have NO IDEA on any given day what your odds are of arriving safely and on time.... but you don't consider it gambling?... even though you could lose your life through no fault of your own?

 

Legally however, another matter entirely. Just as driving to work is not legally gambling in any judicial sense... the same is true of most games of chance that are not specifically legislated as "gambling" in the legal sense (which also varies by local jurisdiction).

 

Now.. if you want to have a lucid and insightful understanding on what is/is-not gambling (both technically and in the legal sense)... I recommend the following: http://www.liebertpub.com/media/content/igl_02_p11-52.pdf

 

Relevant to this ongoing discussion about Cartel Packs = Gambling ..... I would like to bring your attention to one quote specifically on page 13 of the linked document. Please pay particular attention to what I quoted

 

In Yellow-Stone, the Alabama Supreme Court held that a retail promoter did not conduct an illegal lottery where he did not demand that participants in the drawing purchase tickets. Because the payment of money was not required to obtain a chance to win

 

The above is precisely why Cartel Packs do not meet any legal test with respect to gambling. I am a personal example of this in action. I do not buy cartel packs, yet I have every possible item I desire from the packs in my possession on one or more characters. No individual player is required to buy cartel packs to receive specific items they desire. Why? Because pack contents can be freely given or traded inside the game without any need to expend real money in the process. Sure, people can buy packs, and take a chance on them. They also can buy them and resell them for non-real money inside the game. The same is true for the contents of the packs.

 

All that aside... personal moral principles of any given individual can be whatever they want them to be. Which is why these threads never go anywhere productive..... you each have your own moral compass and personal ethics line. But just because you have a moral compass and personal ethic that says cartel packs = gambling does not make it so legally, or commercially, nor do others have to accept your moral tenets. In other words, these types of threads are basically just another variation of internet complaining and attempts to force ones personal will and desires upon others. Which is why we have governments and rule of law as our social foundation. Can you imagine governance and rule of law by gaming forum discussion threads?? Honestly, in a virtual setting where we are all anonymous to one another and are absent ANY authority mandate (other then personal opinion) .. what is the point exactly?

Edited November 7, 2014 by Andryah

[Andryah]

No one has judged anyone.

 

There has been plenty of "judgment" in both this thread and every other thread topic alleging cartel packs = gambling. Just look at the post immediately below this one.

 

I believe this happens primarily because some players want to enforce their world view upon others, and when they don't get agreement.. they move to prosecution and judgment. Which is why threads like this are a waste of electrons, IMO.

Edited November 7, 2014 by Andryah

[BrintoSFJ]

These gambling packs only exist for whales, you know whales are pretty lucky and that is why they are whales. i can buy and open packs and get **** loot but a whale opens just a few of them and gets the best loot, that is why they buy more and open more, typical life of whales. don't buy gambling packs if you are not a whale.

[leihn]

Exactly. It needs better regulation. With a physical 'grab bag' product like trading cards the odds of obtaining a specific item are known. Then it's down to the buyer to decide if they feel those odds are fair and if they are willing to take their chance.

 

With virtual grab bags like the CM packs, the odds are not known. Bioware doesn't publish them and it would be very hard for players to work them out, other than subjectively by looking at what is available on the GTN or what players are saying about drop rates on the forums. So it is much much harder for players to make a judgement on what is fair (to them).

 

Some will say "it's just RNG". But is it? Is it true RNG (in as much as digital RNG ever can be) or weighted in some way? We have no way of knowing. This is what needs to change. There needs to be more transparency about what the odds are.

Or better still, ditch the grab bag concept and sell the items directly on the CM. Then we might actually get some properly designed items and less lazy reskins and fillers.

 

This alternative has some pros and cons, when you have the lure of getting something valuable or rare without consideration of what your odds of getting it are you get more impulse buys without having to give out the valuable item, if instead, the items were set for a fixed sale price you would have to likely raise that price to match the income you would get from the grab bag, we see that in some game models like Star Citizen's current backer/fundraising model where they'll sell you a pretty ship that will take 80-100 hours to grind out for 300$ or so.

 

The existence of "Rare" and "Super Rare" imply it is weighted.

 

My biggest issue isn't with the random nature of grab bags, it's with the lack of transparency in what the odds actually are, if you told me 1/64 cartel packs has a super rare I can make an educated decision on whether or not it's worth it to gamble for the item I want, but if you just tell me there are 8-10 super rare items in each pack collection but the appearance rate could be anywhere from 1/64 to 1/300,000 then I'm pretty much just rolling a dice, especially if the rates are ever tweaked back end without disclosure, so prior empirical evidence cannot even be used to model expected returns.

 

This is not really the case for most physical loot bags of the nature, like I gave the example of MTG booster packs, you know the exact distribution (rares are 1 per pack, 50-53 rares per set, your odds of getting a specific rare is 1/50-53, mythics are 1/8 packs and there are 15-16 per set, so your odds of getting a specific mythic is 1/120)

 

I would have no problems if Cartel Packs told me straight up what the odds are for the different rarities, then you can calculate EV based on secondary market and decide if you'd rather spend the money or not.

 

The absolute worst is when Gachas (especially mobile games) do the "12x appearance rate for super rares" and you have no idea what the base appearance rate is, this marketing gimmick preys on the impulsive and low self-restraint customers who think they're getting an amazing deal only to find out that 12x of a 0.00003 rate is still a terrible rate

[Cernow]

There has been plenty of "judgment" in both this thread and every other thread topic alleging cartel packs = gambling.

 

I believe this happens primarily because some players want to enforce their world view upon others, and when they don't get agreement.. they move to prosecution and judgment. Which is why threads like this are a waste of electrons, IMO.

 

Waste of electrons in your opinion, yet here you are too posting at length. If it's a waste of electrons, why are you so bothered?

 

Funny how threads on this issue seem to be such a honeypot for the forum defenders and how they all seem to concur with each other. Given that apparently everyone has a different world view on the matter, isn't it just a little odd how all the forum defenders seem to fall into line on this issue.

 

Threads like this will keep popping up until the online gaming industry is better regulated, or self regulates based on the threat of the former. So much of what goes on in virtual economies isn't properly regulated by existing legislation. I agree that forum warriors cannot and should not decide the rights and wrongs of the issue, but the reason so many try is because our governments are way behind the curve on this issue.

 

Most physical gambling outlets, casinos, lotteries, grab bags, games of chance etc are properly regulated. Participants can find out what they are entering into in advance and what their chances are. There are also restrictions on where these activities can take place and how they are marketed. The same is not true of many online gaming environments. It is a grey area and this needs to change.

[PanagosTsok]

No, for it to be gambling, you'd have a chance of not getting what you paid for.

In the case of the packs, you paid for a "grab bag" and that's exactly what you got.

The things in the pack may not have been what you wanted, but you did, in fact, get what was clearly promised would be in the pack:

- A decoration

- 2 rare bonus items with a chance of a super rare

- 1 boost item

- 1 high-end companion gift

- 1 rep token or cartel cert

- A chance for a scrap token

 

For it to be 'unadulterated gambling' you would pay your money and then you may or may not receive the pack.

Finally someone with a sense around here.

Edited November 7, 2014 by PanagosTsok

[Reno_Tarshil]

Waste of electrons in your opinion, yet here you are too posting at length. If it's a waste of electrons, why are you so bothered?

 

Funny how threads on this issue seem to be such a honeypot for the forum defenders and how they all seem to concur with each other. Given that apparently everyone has a different world view on the matter, isn't it just a little odd how all the forum defenders seem to fall into line on this issue.

 

Threads like this will keep popping up until the online gaming industry is better regulated, or self regulates based on the threat of the former. So much of what goes on in virtual economies isn't properly regulated by existing legislation. I agree that forum warriors cannot and should not decide the rights and wrongs of the issue, but the reason so many try is because our governments are way behind the curve on this issue.

 

Most physical gambling outlets, casinos, lotteries, grab bags, games of chance etc are properly regulated. Participants can find out what they are entering into in advance and what their chances are. There are also restrictions on where these activities can take place and how they are marketed. The same is not true of many online gaming environments. It is a grey area and this needs to change.

 

You are taking pixels that arn't gambling at all way too seriously.

[Tachenko_Yuri]

no it's not gambling at all, for you get rare items in it.

 

We all know that jawagrams and white hawkeyes have the same drop ratio.

 

/sarcasm

Edited November 7, 2014 by Tachenko_Yuri

[Sillensumbra]

Bioware should reveal their drop rates for the items i would bet in this last bag they have been lowered even more...

[rashadk]

Like I said before, a lot of "games" can take on characteristics of gambling so it can be interpreted as such. This really is not difficult to understand.

 

Frankly I'm not sure why folks like you are getting so indignant over the word "gambling" as if it is somehow taboo. It's just a verb that carries a neutral meaning such as drinking, partying or screwing. Those verbs only take on negative connotations when you start adding on adverbs or nouns such as addiction, illegal, binge, unprotected, reckless, rough, abusive or deceptive. And for the record, I'm ignoring certain religious institution perscribed morality provisions which are oftenly attached to those verbs to give them a negative ring. Such provisions are also open to interpretation and not applicable for many people so let's just not go there.

 

With that said, I buy cartel packs from time to time so yes, I "gamble" in-game too. Heck, I've also gambled plenty of times with real money in Vegas, Atlantic City, Macao as well as Indian casinos. The shared similarity between those two avenues is that I "gamble" with a specific monetary budget in mind which I do not go over. I also do not expect to "win big" so in essence my wagers were strictly for entertainment purposes and killing time. The bottom line is that I have no problem with calling a spade a spade as opposed to dancing all twinkle toed like around the subject.

 

This. Just b/c someone says its a form of gambling doesn't mean they are attacking the integrity of the game. Aspects of gambling are involved in many things.

Edited November 7, 2014 by rashadk