Damage Dropping In 3.0

[ivanhedgehog]

Leave my OP class/spec alone, buff everything else?

 

Power creep much?

 

that is not power creep...no matter how many times you say it. they are nerfing EVERYONE. no matter what gear they have. simply put a diminishing returns on any damage over a certain level. that would eliminate the problem. at a certain point gearing up would simply get you to that cap faster, but would never allow you to pass it.

[Levram]

I would like to address some posters’ confusion as to why the change to overall DPS levels is based on the performance of the top nightmare operation players.

 

Everyone is capable of the same DPS

 

Reaching the highest DPS numbers does not rely on a player’s personal physical abilities. The game has artificial restrictions in place which limit how much a player’s personal physical abilities are able to influence their character performance.

• Global rate-limit of 1.5 seconds for abilities
  
• Character in-combat movement speed is non-variable

 

Therefore, a player in peak personal physical condition cannot achieve a higher DPS number than any other player, in the same gear, who is physically capable of triggering abilities every 1.5 seconds.

 

I will leave aside any discussion of mental abilities as that would imply that players who achieve lower DPS levels are somehow mentally inferior to players at higher DPS levels. I do not believe this and I strongly believe that any player, with enough practice and understanding of their character and spec, is capable of performing at the DPS levels of any other player in this game. Therefore there is no meaningful limit to DPS levels based on a player’s mental abilities.

 

Determining “ceiling” DPS

 

The Developers attempt to mathematically determine what the maximum DPS level (the “ceiling”) is for a given spec based on their understanding of the interaction between a sequence of abilities and the statistics of a character. However, the Developers are human and are capable of making mistakes. As well, with many hundreds of thousands of people playing characters, there is always the possibility that unanticipated gameplay will emerge that supersedes the theoretical DPS calculations of the Developers. One example of this is hybrid specs.

 

If players demonstrate that they are capable of reaching a higher DPS ceiling than the Developers anticipated, then that unequivocally becomes the new ceiling DPS level for that advanced class and spec. It no longer matters what the Developers calculated should have been the DPS ceiling.

 

Therefore the Developers will always use the DPS levels of min/max geared nightmare operation players as the DPS ceiling for a given advanced class and spec when those players’ DPS levels supersede the Developers’ calculations.

 

Time-to-kill

 

The time-to-kill (TTK) any enemy in the game depends on the interaction between three numerical gameplay elements and player skill.

• The hit points (HP) of the enemy
  
• The statistics (or “gear level”) of the player, which can be expressed as a percentage of the highest possible statistics
  
• The DPS ceiling of the spec of the player
  
• The ability of the player to perform a perfect rotation (“player skill”), which can be expressed as a percentage of a perfect rotation

 

TTK = HP / ( Gear Level x DPS Ceiling x Player Skill )

 

Operation difficulty levels and DPS ceiling

 

The three operation difficulty levels have one underlying primary purpose – to affect the ease with which players achieve the DPS ceiling for their advanced class and spec.

 

As the difficulty level of an operation increases, more mechanics are introduced. These mechanics have the ancillary effect of making fights more interesting and fun, but their primary purpose is to make it harder for players to achieve their DPS ceiling. Mechanics can result in players needing to move more often, be out of range of an enemy, or have an enemy become immune to damage. The overall impact is that performing a perfect rotation and reaching the DPS ceiling during a fight becomes harder as more mechanics are added.

 

The Developers’ philosophy behind the three operation difficulty levels can be seen as an interaction between how close to their DPS ceiling (in the case of operations, this means “the maximum possible DPS for the operation’s recommended gear level”) players are expected to come, and how many mechanics are in place to hinder players from reaching their DPS ceiling (numbers provided for example purposes.)

• Story Mode: Players are expected to be able to reach 75% of their DPS ceiling. Few mechanics are present, providing a small hindrance to DPS.
  
• Hard Mode: Players are expected to be able to reach 85% of their DPS ceiling. Several mechanics are present, providing a moderate hindrance to DPS.
  
• Nightmare Mode: Players are expected to be able to reach 95% of their DPS ceiling. Many mechanics are present, providing a large hindrance to DPS.

 

So it becomes obvious why story mode is so easy relative to nightmare mode. The Developers expect story mode players to reach a lower percentage of their DPS ceiling in the recommended gear level and are barely preventing players from reaching that target. In nightmare mode, not only do the Developers expect players to reach a higher percentage of their DPS ceiling in the recommended gear level, but they are also throwing mechanic after mechanic into the fight to make it very hard for players to reach that target.

 

Current 2.10 game state

 

Based on the comments of the developers on the 3.0 DPS reduction, I interpret the current state of the game in 2.10 as follows.

• Nightmare operation players have set new DPS ceilings across almost all advanced classes that are higher than what the Developers intended.
  
• All players are benefiting from these higher ceilings as they can outperform the Developers' DPS intentions at any gear and skill level. For example, if the current maximum possible DPS for being in full 180 commendation gear is 3,300 for a given advanced class and spec, but the Developers intended the maximum DPS to only be 3,000, a player who can only perform at 70% of the maximum possible is still able to achieve 2,310 DPS rather than the 2,100 the Developers intended.
  
• As all players are outperforming expected DPS levels, it has become easier than the Developers intended for players to reach the percentage of their DPS ceiling that is required to clear operation bosses.

 

Conclusion

 

DPS reductions will always be based on the performance of nightmare operation players. Those players demonstrate to the Developers whether a DPS ceiling that is higher than the Developers’ expectation is possible.

 

As well, all players, at any gear and skill level, are benefiting from a higher ceiling number based on the TTK formula:

 

TTK = HP / ( Gear Level x DPS ceiling x Player Skill )

 

Finally, all players are capable of performing the exact same rotation as any other player, as there are artificial limitations to a player’s physical capabilities, and therefore, equally geared, any player is able to perform at the exact same DPS level as any other player.

Edited November 8, 2014 by Levram

[ivanhedgehog]

You know. I actually did. Can't say I cared for nerfing everyone based on what they said.

 

snip

.

 

you also see that they are not adjusting things before release, just after players have had a couple of weeks to wipe and get very angry. I dont expect to see them ever adjust anything like that, we are still waiting for the next phase of the great Orbital tickle nerf.

[Pagy]

levram i could kiss u right now

 

instead i'll make this post

 

thank u

[ivanhedgehog]

I would like to address some posters’ confusion as to why the change to overall DPS levels is based on the performance of the top nightmare operation players.

 

Everyone is capable of the same DPSsnip

Finally, all players are capable of performing the exact same rotation as any other player, as there are artificial limitations to a player’s physical capabilities, and therefore, equally geared, any player is able to perform at the exact same DPS level as any other player.

 

its a good thing every player is equal, otherwise things like graphics lag and ping would affect their ability to pump out the same dps.

as far as combat speed, I wont mention the leaps and force speed that make that part invalid

 

by balancing the game on the top of the statistical curve, the devs have decided that they no longer want swtor to be casual friendly. that approach seems to have worked wonders for the 60 wildstar dev staff that got laid off last week.

Edited November 7, 2014 by ivanhedgehog

[Pagy]

its a good thing every player is equal, otherwise things like graphics lag and ping would affect their ability to pump out the same dps.

as far as combat speed, I wont mention the leaps and force speed that make that part invalid

 

by balancing the game on the top of the statistical curve, the devs have decided that they no longer want swtor to be casual friendly. that approach seems to have worked wonders for the 60 wildstar dev staff that got laid off last week.

dont be afraid, just admit you have no idea what he said and refuse to understand.

 

another troll for the ignore list.

[mokkh]

I see what you did there.

 

 

 

I started playing MMOs only few years ago, Nov 2010 to be exact. EVE (my first MMO), Rift, Tera, WoW, GW2, FFXIV:ARR and of course SWTOR. All I've seen and heard about 3.0 looks good. I'll continue playing.

 

Vanilla EQ1 in '99 was my first foray into mmos, I won't even bother to list all the games I've had a hand in playing since then. In any case, I've been hit with nerfbats and redesigns before and will be hit with them again in the future. It's nothing to be concerned about. Glad you're sticking around.

 

/salute

[Levram]

its a good thing every player is equal, otherwise things like graphics lag and ping would affect their ability to pump out the same dps.

as far as combat speed, I wont mention the leaps and force speed that make that part invalid

 

by balancing the game on the top of the statistical curve, the devs have decided that they no longer want swtor to be casual friendly. that approach seems to have worked wonders for the 60 wildstar dev staff that got laid off last week.

 

1) The Developers are not expected to balance the game's DPS around every individual player's possible hardware performance problems.

 

2) Every Assassin has access to Force Speed. Every Marauder has access to leap. No player of a given advanced class and spec has access to skills and abilities that permit them to move faster in combat than another player of the same advanced class and spec. "Non-variable" in this context means that in-shape Player A cannot move their character any faster when in-combat as compared to out-of-shape Player B.

 

You can think of it this way -- if one of the top nightmare operation players sat down at your computer, logged into one of your characters, fought Grob'thok and pulled X DPS, there is nothing preventing you from also pulling X DPS. Just trigger abilities in the same order and move your character along the same path. The nightmare operation player is not physically capable of playing your character better than you can.

Edited November 8, 2014 by Levram

[Nefastuss]

This is necessary to prevent what happened to world of warcraft. Numbers got so high because the lack of control when an expansion came up that it ruined the game to the point of having to squish numbers a LOT in their next expansion.

 

This is a great idea from Bioware, happy they realize the danger it is to level everything up when a new expac hits. In fact I would like to see an even bigger squish personally.

[LordArtemis]

I think it is fair to argue that all players are probably performing beyond original dev intentions, though I think the problem had more to with improper spec inflation on gear than actual problems with the damage rates themselves.

 

But I digress.

 

One thing, one obvious thing, can be said for sure...the devs created this problem themselves by inflating stats and mob strength far too much over a short term leveling system.

 

This game only deals with 55 levels. IMO we are far too powerful, even in 148 gear at level 55. The mobs are also overtuned and have some rather hard hitting specials, even in the open world.

 

This is poorly planned design IMO, and they are perhaps making the corrections needed at this point.

 

IMO the curve should have been far more shallow, for both players AND mobs.

Edited November 7, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Biroc]

Test reply, ignore.

From what I understand from the stream, they are lowering our damage to be more in line with how long they want fights to be.

 

Our current gear will be doing less at level 60 than it is now

 

If you equip the 198 gear (the new bis) and are level 60, your DPS will be similar to current 55s with 186 gear (from Dulfy notes).

 

This means people will be doing less damage for weeks or months than we currently do.

 

Imagine the rage when this goes live and people are seeing lower numbers... it will be glorious

 

I'm not a fan of this personally, what do you guys think?

[Max_Killjoy]

Have you already watched the stream?

 

Read the transcript, always better/faster/less tedious.

 

Let's just say that you're doing a lot of reading between the lines and inferring things. It's not nearly as concise and informative as you say it is. Read from a neutral stance, the statements leave a lot of things up in the air and leave a lot of room for the sort of speculation going on in these threads.

Edited November 8, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[Vashgud]

This is what happens when people cater too much to the high end crowd. There should be a server where people like to spend there entire life and so much time. I am a casual player I could care less bout that crowd and if I have to spend more than a couple hours a game the company should write me a check for my time. Pushing down the high end crowd's power will push away more casual customers. People like me that are busy don't want more time sinks. It turns me off and makes me put away my cc. Want to see my graveyard of mmo's? It's pretty big cause of post launch changes like this that produce a product that is sub par to the original (in past games).

[Zoom_VI]

I have to spend more than a couple hours a game the company should write me a check for my time.

 

Wow, just wow. Entitlement much?

[Max_Killjoy]

This is what happens when people cater too much to the high end crowd. There should be a server where people like to spend there entire life and so much time. I am a casual player I could care less bout that crowd and if I have to spend more than a couple hours a game the company should write me a check for my time. Pushing down the high end crowd's power will push away more casual customers. People like me that are busy don't want more time sinks. It turns me off and makes me put away my cc. Want to see my graveyard of mmo's? It's pretty big cause of post launch changes like this that produce a product that is sub par to the original (in past games).

 

Wait, what?

 

Shouldn't a game provide MORE than a couple of hours of enjoyment for the money you paid?

 

Or am I misreading you?

[Halinalle]

I am against reducing the difficulty of CZ and Oricon for now.....

 

CZ is yawn fest for my undergeared Shadow

Origon is .... let's put it this way:

Bothrium beast: this is a boss? seriously!? BW, you have to do better than that at level 60.

Subteroth: where's the boss?

Zaoron: yeah, he can be pain if you're not tank with healer companion (in that case it's a joke)

Edited November 8, 2014 by Halinalle

[Aussircaex]

As someone who has played through a number of level cap increases over the years, I was disliked the essential irrelevance old endgame content experiences once new content is released. It often felt like as much content was removed as was added - even if it technically still existed, it served no purpose and nobody ever ran it.

 

Ideally, I'd like to see old content stay relevant somehow. The simplest solution is the poorest; to make new content require gear only attainable from old content. MMO design has abandoned that in favor of commendations, allowing players to always have "endgame -1" gear.

 

The other way would be to offer some sort of other reward for completing the older content. Some sort of incentive can be added to encourage players to complete it. If they do this, however, it still needs to present a challenge. So even though we will gain 5 levels, DF/DP will still be a challenge. I like this.

 

On a different note, is there a statistic of how many players have actually played DF/DP? I've spoken to many people who have not been able to run it at all due to a reputation of difficulty. If that's the case, it would be similar to Naxxramas from Warcraft, which a minority of players were able to access; this led it to be included again in WotLK retooled for the new level cap and raid size. Perhaps DF/DP are in a similar boat?

[katphoenix]

CZ is yawn fest for my undergeared Shadow

Origon is .... let's put it this way:

Bothrium beast: this is a boss? seriously!? BW, you have to do better than that at level 60.

Subteroth: where's the boss?

Zaoron: yeah, he can be pain if you're not tank with healer companion (in that case it's a joke)

 

news flash: its a level 55 planet

 

these are dailies, not raid bosses. they need to be completable solo

if you want challenge raids----->

Edited November 8, 2014 by katphoenix

[Zoom_VI]

news flash: its a level 55 planet

 

these are dailies, not raid bosses. they need to be completable solo

if you want challenge raids----->

 

They are all easily complete able solo. Bronthium requires you to interrupt one thing. The Tower Commander and Subteroth both just require some application of CC.

[LordArtemis]

CZ is yawn fest for my undergeared Shadow

Origon is .... let's put it this way:

Bothrium beast: this is a boss? seriously!? BW, you have to do better than that at level 60.

Subteroth: where's the boss?

Zaoron: yeah, he can be pain if you're not tank with healer companion (in that case it's a joke)

 

Right...and wouldn't reducing the difficulty level of both make them even worse?

[KTap]

Wow, just wow. Entitlement much?

 

I thought the exact same thing

[MisterBlackJack]

The only thing I care for numbers in progression is:

 

Number of my level is

 

The number I need to kill thing

 

The time it takes something to die

 

The number of bosses I cleared

 

The number of difficulty I clear.

 

 

 

Outside of those numbers going across the screen means little as long as things can still fall down

[katphoenix]

They are all easily complete able solo. Bronthium requires you to interrupt one thing. The Tower Commander and Subteroth both just require some application of CC.

 

I agree with you, the person I was replying to was complaining that they were too easy. but they need to be completed by new 55's in leveling greens. they are dailies, not meant to provide challenging content. there is plenty of that if people will just step up to the plate.

Edited November 9, 2014 by katphoenix

[Halinalle]

I agree with you, the person I was replying to was complaining that they were too easy. but they need to be completed by new 55's in leveling greens. they are dailies, not meant to provide challenging content. there is plenty of that if people will just step up to the plate.

 

Yet we see a lot of "come here and help me with this boss!" on Oricon. We don't need any reduction in difficulty. Any dps can defeat those bosses if undergeared tank (note: lower damage output) can defeat them.

 

By the way, you can ignore mechanics in Subteroth fight. At least I did when I defeated that boss the first time. Full 140 (note: vendor junk) + maybe 1 piece of 156, Immortal + Quinn in mix of level 47 and 49 gear.

Edited November 9, 2014 by Halinalle

[LordArtemis]

I really do feel strongly that the difficulty for CZ and Oricon is about right and should remain as it is. IMO Makebs adjustment and buff was a good idea, but I think they should leave CZ and Oricon as it is, at least until the expansion hits.