Damage Dropping In 3.0

[Transcendent]

I'd rather trust BioWare's conclusion on this issue that yours: they have the numbers, and they have a greater interest in the long term health of the game: it's their jobs.

 

Well this sums it up nicely. So why you're continuing to assert x y z about the game, it's pure speculation and opinions. Until someone from BioWare comes in and gives solid reasoning and solid numbers, your anecdotal "evidence" of what is and isn't in SWTOR is purely that.

 

How does it go? YMMV.

[Zoom_VI]

Hardmode s&v was designed to be done in 162's. Its not even relevant anymore. Bringing that up has zero bearing on this conversation.

 

Yeah except if you are doing it in 162s the DPS checks are still a non-issue.

[Jimvinny]

Yeah except if you are doing it in 162s the DPS checks are still a non-issue.

 

Right. Because typically, swtor HM ops have been designed as mechanics checks, while nim had the DPs checks. Nim styrak in 168's was definitely a DPs check.

[Jimvinny]

how are they slowing progression?

 

nim df/dp will drop 186 gear in post-3.0. you dont need to do it unless you want to see old, pointless content.

 

Except they've already stated the nim df/dp WILL still be relevant. Whether it will be be top level comms, or gear tokens, they havent decided.

[Pagy]

Except they've already stated the nim df/dp WILL still be relevant. Whether it will be be top level comms, or gear tokens, they havent decided.

not seeing your point.

 

relevant sure it will drop comms for lvl 60 gear. but there are other ways to get these comms.

 

i dont expect to ever set foot into df/dp for months. as will most people.

[Drockter]

i dont expect to ever set foot into df/dp for months. as will most people.

 

Maybe its me, I could not play like this. I could not focus on 1 or 2 pieces of content for months on end.

 

I still run the Classic Ops (EV, KP, EC), Random FP's, PvP, Craft, Mid Ops (TfB, TC, SnV), and newish (DP/DF). Sometimes, I want to run dailies... other times I don't touch them for weeks. If it becomes just a tad harder, I'm fine with that.

[Larsenex]

News flash...

 

Nobody cares.

 

Lets move on to the next whine please...

[KTap]

News flash...

 

Nobody cares.

 

Lets move on to the next whine please...

 

34 pages.

 

Nobody cares.

 

Makes sense

[ivanhedgehog]

When asked to justify the claim that the number of guilds clearing NiM content is so small as to be "irrelevant:"

 

Ah I see: you actually have no clue at all on how many guilds are clearing NiM content in SWTOR.

Instead, you make a vague and unsupported claim about other MMOs, then assume it applies to SWTOR, which implicitly assumes that SWTOR is no more or no less out of balance, regarding player DPS, than those other MMOs.

 

Sorry, but that's not even close to a valid argument. I'd rather trust BioWare's conclusion on this issue that yours: they have the numbers, and they have a greater interest in the long term health of the game: it's their jobs.

 

there is a very good indicator that the number is small. how many wings of the architect do you see around the game..thats right..not a lot.

[ivanhedgehog]

It doesn't matter if only a few are farming nightmare, you can see the DPS bloat with stuff like Hardmode S&V, seriously DPS check simply do not exist, because pulling the required DPS at gear level is trivial. That not how its supposed to work.

 

s&v shouldnt be that hard..its old , lower level content. it also doesnt reward current gear like dp/df does, so why should the difficulty be similar?

[Halinalle]

34 pages.

 

Nobody cares.

 

Makes sense

 

It's only possible because people only see what they want to see.

[Levram]

I see several people in this thread frustrated that, in their view, the DPS reduction is being made with the primary goal of keeping Dread Fortress and Dread Palace as "relevant content" in 3.0.

 

I understand that many players are very tired of these two operations. I'm there with you. I've been clearing HM since October of last year and having been in NM since its release (anyone want one of the 50+ Corruptor Blades my guild has seen drop?)

 

However, the part that I am not understanding is that, for the players that are completely worn out by the existing content, why in the world would you ever set foot in Dread Fortress or Dread Palace again once 3.0 is released? The two new operations will permit you to gear-up into BiS 198s without ever having to touch a piece of old content again.

 

The DPS reduction will have no effect on your ability to finally get into new content, as everything released in 3.0 will be balanced around the new DPS levels.

[Quraswren]

SNIp..... why in the world would you ever set foot in Dread Fortress or Dread Palace again once 3.0 is released?

 

 

Probably because BW is going to keep it relevant and have laden with ultimate comms to make it stay a lucrative run. It wont be ran because people care for it anymore.

 

It will be ran for the ultimate comms and the jump start it gives to mains and alts (and to some extent companions). Unless of course it doesn't drop ultimate comms but you know it will. Otherwise, no one would run for level 55 186 and lower gear.

[Levram]

Probably because BW is going to keep it relevant and have laden with ultimate comms to make it stay a lucrative run. It wont be ran because people care for it anymore.

 

It will be ran for the ultimate comms and the jump start it gives to mains and alts (and to some extent companions). Unless of course it doesn't drop ultimate comms but you know it will. Otherwise, no one would run for level 55 186 and lower gear.

 

I could see the Developers following an approach similar to the one they use currently to award Ultimate commendations for Level 50 operations, some type of "Level 55 Classic Weekly" that requires a HM or NM clear of TFB, S&V, DF or DP.

 

If, for some reason after 3.0 launches, the individual bosses in NM DF and DP continue to drop Ultimate commendations, I don't see the problem, or the point. A player capable of beating bosses in NM DF and DP, even after the launch of 3.0, has almost no need for Ultimate commendations. They will be more than capable of racking-up 198 tokens from the new HM operations. Outside of a buying some 198 belts/bracers for the min/max power mod, 3.0 Ultimate commendations will be as generally useless to top-level players as 2.10 Ultimate commendations are now.

[KTap]

It's only possible because people only see what they want to see.

 

True enough

[Zoom_VI]

I really don't understand why people get so mad over DF/DP being moved up. Believe it or not there are people who haven't been running ops for years and who are just now getting into raids, its not fair to new players to say "you can't do this content, because its not relevant"

 

This is whats so bad about power creep, it makes life hell for new players.

[Savej]

I really don't understand why people get so mad over DF/DP being moved up. Believe it or not there are people who haven't been running ops for years and who are just now getting into raids, its not fair to new players to say "you can't do this content, because its not relevant"

 

This is whats so bad about power creep, it makes life hell for new players.

 

It's not fair for new players to come in and say everyone has to be forced to run the same old thing over and over again for years since they might decide to start playing. See how that works?

 

No one's saying you won't be able to form a group and do old raids or hms or whatever. But in PVE you can't really freeze content just for the people that haven't bothered to start playing until now. Newbs willl be able to focus on the same things everyone else is when they hit 60 and gear up a little.

[Halinalle]

I really don't understand why people get so mad over DF/DP being moved up. Believe it or not there are people who haven't been running ops for years and who are just now getting into raids, its not fair to new players to say "you can't do this content, because its not relevant"

 

This is whats so bad about power creep, it makes life hell for new players.

 

Where do you get your info? Are you sure that's not NDA thing?

[Jeweledleah]

Where do you get your info? Are you sure that's not NDA thing?

 

http://dulfy.net/2014/10/30/swtor-3-0-global-combat-changes-livestream-notes/

 

top of the page.

 

and content not being relevant progression doesn't meant people won't or shouldn't run it anymore. after all - I will bet you right now - there will still be people running EV, EC and KP even at 60. they just won't be running it as originally intended.. and that's ok too. flashpoints were intended to be run at level in group of 4. as were heroics. but we still go back and solo them after over leveling and/or overgearing them

 

personally, I don't mind actualy numbers on my screen being lower. all i care about is my relative power to content. if it remains the same? /shrug. if things take longer to die and I can no longer solo stuff I currently solo? then I have a problem

[Halinalle]

top of the page.

 

First of all I actually watched the stream few days ago.

 

All I can see from Dulfy's notes is

They want to roll DF/DP into optional part of endgame (55 isn't endgame anymore, surprise!) by allowing people to gear through it. To me that means level 55 operation dropping Ultimates and/or new tier gear.

 

And that's exactly what I heard from stream.

 

I don't mind actualy numbers on my screen being lower. all i care about is my relative power to content.

 

I try to make this as clear as possible.

- Your damage will drop (numbers on the screen)

- Your relative damage output isn't going to change

- Because damage is always relative to content you're running

 

That's just small amount of info you can get from latest stream or Dulfy's notes if you don't have time watch the stream.

 

People who worry about their damage at 55 are wrong. When 3.0 hits the live servers 55 isn't endgame anymore, it is just another level before 60 (new endgame). One moment you're level 55 and next you're 56 and 57. You get the point.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Halinalle

[Jeweledleah]

First of all I actually watched the stream few days ago.

 

All I can see from Dulfy's notes is

They want to roll DF/DP into optional part of endgame (55 isn't endgame anymore, surprise!) by allowing people to gear through it. To me that means level 55 operation dropping Ultimates and/or new tier gear.

 

And that's exactly what I heard from stream.

 

 

 

I try to make this as clear as possible.

- Your damage will drop (numbers on the screen)

- Your relative damage output isn't going to change

- Because damage is always relative to content you're running

 

That's just small amount of info you can get from latest stream or Dulfy's notes if you don't have to watch the stream.

 

People who worry about their damage at 55 are wrong. When 3.0 hits the live servers 55 isn't endgame anymore, it is just another level before 60 (new endgame). One moment you're level 55 and next you're 56 and 57. You get the point.

 

they are saying that DF/DP will be harder. they are rolling NIM versions into end game at lvl 60. last time they did something like that that - they boosted TFB to lvl 55. so given precedence - people are wondering exactly HOW are they keeping DF/DP NIM endgame relevant.

 

my second part of the post was addressed to OP, I probably should have made it clearer. your explanation is what I'm hoping for. however - until either NDA is lifted and I can badger my guildies who are currently in BETA for more info, or until actual expansion drops? we. do NOT. know if this is what they are intending. all we know is that developers think we are doing too much damage. is it too much damage relative to current content difficulty? or they just don't like arbitrary numbers?

 

there is at least some cause for concern here, or at least request for developer clarification.

[Halinalle]

No, what is happening currently is that everyone is freaking out because of little weird scenarios someone created on forums based on false information.

 

Exactly the same that happened on WoW forums few weeks ago and then everyone realized that it's not that bad after all.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Halinalle

[Savej]

 

I try to make this as clear as possible.

- Your damage will drop (numbers on the screen)

- Your relative damage output isn't going to change

- Because damage is always relative to content you're running

 

Damage is going down. @55 we will have the same health, enemies have same health, they die slower. @60 we will have more health, enemies will have more health and we will be doing the same Dps we used to do @55 - there's nothing relative in there. They couldn't have been more clear on what they said. This is not a stat squish. This is not what they did in Wow. This is a nerf. How much of a nerf remains to be seen. Whether or not it turns out to be a nerf remains to be seen. But that is their stated intention.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Savej

[Halinalle]

Damage is going down. @55 we will have the same health, enemies have same health, they die slower. @60 we will have more health, enemies will have more health and we will be doing the same Dps we used to do @55 - there's nothing relative in there. They couldn't have been more clear on what they said. This is not a stat squish. This is not what they did in Wow. This is a nerf. How much of a nerf remains to be seen. Whether or not it turns out to be a nerf remains to be seen. But that is their stated intention.

 

So, you ignored the thing they said about leveling content and you do it on purpose. 55 is leveling content in 3.0. It's not endgame anymore.

 

Why do you even care about dps you do at 55. You're 2 days away from endgame and you worry about your dps at 55.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Halinalle

[Levram]

they are saying that DF/DP will be harder. they are rolling NIM versions into end game at lvl 60. last time they did something like that that - they boosted TFB to lvl 55. so given precedence - people are wondering exactly HOW are they keeping DF/DP NIM endgame relevant.

 

...all we know is that developers think we are doing too much damage. is it too much damage relative to current content difficulty? or they just don't like arbitrary numbers?

 

Here is a copy of the transcript of the Developers from their last LiveStream so that you can read exactly what was said, including the following selected quotes.

 

Rob: …the biggest thing I think is we wanted to look at how the damage was globally on, like, all the Classes, especially how they interacted with in the end-game stuff, like the nightmare mode Operations, especially, you know, Dread Fortress and Dread Palace. And sort of what we decided is that the Classes had kind of started to exceed the baseline values that we originally had set-up for everything, and since we’re going through and doing this big Discipline reorganization anyway, we decided to take the opportunity to get the Classes back to what the Operations expected.

 

...“Creeping up a little bit higher” is a good way to put it. So when we came through and I was talking to George, the Operations guy, we decided that we were going to get everyone back to where they’re suppose to be, come 60. So the end result is that players at Level 60 are going to actually end up about where they are right now at Level 55. Of course the off-shoot of that is that Level 55 guys will come down a little bit and they’ll come back up to where they’re suppose to be at Level 60.

 

Eric: So as part of that, do you want to talk a little bit about, I think something that people are probably going to point to a bit is nightmare Dread Fortress and Palace and what impact this will have on those.

 

Rob: Sure, so the trick with that, of course, is relative to the players doing them now, they might be getting a little more difficult, and that’s true. We will make some adjustments to counteract the Class differences, [omitted interjection of nightmare rewards / end-game philosophy topic].

 

Eric: Right, because based on the changes that we’re making with damage and some of the other stuff we’re going to talk about today, our expectation (we’re still working out exactly the difficulty there), but nightmare Dread Fortress and Dread Palace are going to be actually pretty difficult even at 60, they’ll still be fairly difficult.

 

Rob: Sure, Yeah, yeah, I mean, basically because of all the other changes, the difficulty level of the nightmare mode is still relevant, so we might as well keep it in the content channel. I mean, if it’s still a challenge, let’s reward it.

 

They have never said that nightmare Dread Fortress and Dread Palace are being modified to be Level 60 operations. They will still be Level 55 operations when 3.0 is launched. They will be comparatively more difficult for post-3.0 Level 55 players than they are for pre-3.0 Level 55 players because Level 55 players are doing more DPS today than Level 55 players will do once 3.0 launches if they are in the same gear.

 

The Developers acknowledge that NM DF and DP, "relative to the players doing them now, they might be getting a little more difficult" because of their lower DPS output, so they are going to toss in a few extra rewards for players who choose to continue to work on those nightmare operations (e.g. Ultimate commendations and some Level 60 pieces of gear as an alternative gearing path to running the new SM and HM operations coming in 3.0.) Once 3.0 launches no one has to ever set foot in DF or DP again to gear up to BiS 198s. The new operations provide players with all the token rewards and Ultimate commendations they could require.

 

To answer your second point, the Developers' statement on how they think players are doing too much damage is "Classes had kind of started to exceed the baseline values that we originally had set-up for everything, and since we’re going through and doing this big Discipline reorganization anyway, we decided to take the opportunity to get the Classes back to what the Operations expected." Therefore the reduction to DPS is due to the interaction of current DPS numbers with current operation targets (i.e. relative to current content difficulty.)

Edited November 4, 2014 by Levram