Damage Dropping In 3.0

[Pagy]

So you don't know by how much or what it may be relative too.

 

I care because thats what Im in and how it will affect me. Getting to 60 and getting 60 gear to be back at where I was at 55 is a hard sell already. I wouldn't mind knowing where the gear I have now stands.

 

I'm trying to figure out where we are being placed as far as gear goes when our 55 gear gets nerfed come 3.0

the gear you have now is level 55 gear

 

we are all in the same boat

 

you'll level to 60 in the couple hours it will take and begin replacing the level 55 gear

 

your level 55 gear doesnt matter, just like your level 50 gear didnt matter after makeb.

 

how is this difficult to comprehend or are you just looking for things to panic and pout about?

[Pagy]

Absolutely not true. They (the two pasty faces in the video) that "A character at level 60 with 198 gear will do the same DPS as a 55 now in 186".

 

/\ That's not speculation - even those who argued that the MOBs are being made easier to kill (at least from 1-50) agree that is true.

 

Somebody, many pages ago and even more recently said it best, "This DPS nerf is to keep DF / DP relevant."

gear stats will increase

 

the gear isnt being reduced, your abilities are...and skill trees.

 

you really seem to have a tough time with specifics, dont you. you read one thing and tear off on a tangent of assumptions.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Pagy

[Arkerus]

Damage is all relative. Worrying about this is silly at best. If you "feel" like you are being set back that is your own personal problem. A damage squish has to happen for the longetivity of the game. Otherwise, we will end up with WoW Syndrome where people are walking about with 400,000 HP.

 

If you do 5 damage to a mob that has 100 HP that is the same as doing 50 damage to a mob with 1000 HP.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Arkerus

[Halinalle]

Honestly thats kinda what we were thinking.

 

If you go into DF/DP with 156 gear that BW handed you from dailies, I bet BW used that as a new starting point.

 

As a guess, anything around 186 will act as if it's about 156 for all intents and purposes. If you needed to gauge how you might be doing in that content with current gear and If you plan to get a jump on getting more ultimate comms (which I think most would if they can). You should be able to tell how things might turn out.

 

To remind everyone about the real requirements. To teach DPS to play their role properly.

Yeah, I think it's good for game.

[Lotharofxev]

gear stats will increase

 

the gear isnt being reduced, your abilities are...and skill trees.

 

you really seem to have a tough time with specifics, dont you. you read one thing and tear off on a tangent of assumptions.

 

Your passive-aggressive comments aside, there is no assumption when straight out of the Devs mouth they tell us how top-end gear at 60 will do the same damage as top-end gear now.

[dbears]

At the end of the day, if all the leveling and griding etc. to achieve gear was simply a waste of time, because in five levels, after MORE grinding, I'm right back where I am now, then...well I suppose each individual has to make a choice.

 

I think the word "grinding" gets thrown around way too much.

 

From what I understand is that a lot of people are upset that they have to "grind" to get to 60 and then "grind" to get new gear.

 

What I don't understand is what the complaint is. You'd be logging on to the game anyway. You'd be running dailies anyway. Or you'd be PvPing anyway. You'd be running Flashpoints anyway. What I'm saying is that you'd be online playing the game regardless of the expansion.

 

So why is it all of the sudden when there is something new to work towards that it's a "grind".

 

Choosing to quit the game because the developers have given you something new to do. Damn those developers. Why do they have to do things like that like?

 

TL;DR.. you would've been playing the game whether there was an expansion, level increase, gear "grind" or not. This just gives you new stuff to so. Enjoy it.

[Pagy]

Do as I did. Watch the Twitch stream. Then tell me how, at the 3:00 mark when they say, "A 60 in 198 will be doing the same damage as a 55 in 186" that it's about "ratios".

 

And before you tell me to FF to 4:00 when they talk about the "slog", realize the cutoff for reducing MOB health was * 50 *.

you've been explained this numerous times

 

dps is just a rate in a long equation. tkk depends on more than just dps. the number is just relative.

[Orizuru]

No, it's a nerf to damage. (Gear and raw numbers I don't care about). I don't know how much clearer they can be that that is what is being done. To "balance" the situation, from 1-50 should be easier. Emphasis on should be. But if a 60 in 198 is doing the same as a current 55 in 186, that's not a nerf to "stats", that's a nerf to damage output.

 

I think you missed my point completely.

 

You quoted a guy who said "Its not a nerf to gear" and told him that was "Absolutely not true". I simply responded by explaining that the gear itself isn't the target of the nerf and that it is how the gear scales with level that is being nerfed.

 

I was simply pointing out that you were making a false statement in regards to how they are nerfing damage output to try and help avoid confusing the topic with misrepresented information.

[Pagy]

top-end gear at 60 will do the same damage as top-end gear now.

no one is debating this point

 

please read the words on the screen instead of running off on tangents, yet again.

 

you said that gear is being nerfed. it is absolutely not.

 

dps is being nerfed.

gear, is not being nerfed.

 

just read this 20x and let that sink in.

[Quraswren]

I think the word "grinding" gets thrown around way too much.

 

From what I understand is that a lot of people are upset that they have to "grind" to get to 60 and then "grind" to get new gear.

 

What I don't understand is what the complaint is. You'd be logging on to the game anyway. You'd be running dailies anyway. Or you'd be PvPing anyway. You'd be running Flashpoints anyway. What I'm saying is that you'd be online playing the game regardless of the expansion.

 

So why is it all of the sudden when there is something new to work towards that it's a "grind".

 

Choosing to quit the game because the developers have given you something new to do. Damn those developers. Why do they have to do things like that like?

 

TL;DR.. you would've been playing the game whether there was an expansion, level increase, gear "grind" or not. This just gives you new stuff to so. Enjoy it.

 

I think the problem this time around is not so much the "grind" but the reason behind it.

 

BW knocked you back 2 steps just so you could grind back those 2 steps. Getting back to where you were. Thats pretty messed up design just to keep some year old content around. Can't be getting those ultimate comms to easy now can you from old content.

 

It rarely makes a difference when a new expansion comes out and you level up, so old content becomes easier and the new content is something to work toward completing while getting more powerful gear so your character is more powerful.

 

I have never come across an expansion where everyone takes a nerf at the start just so you can level to be right back where you left off. It's a bit odd in a progression based game. No one runs a race just so that right at the end, you're told to go back to the halfway mark and start again.

 

Personally, I think most of the problem comes from that VS any numbers or raiding problems. Gamers can usually over come the numbers while still not liking it but make the game have the appearance of going no where for the effort you put in. Thats a problem.

 

2 steps back just to take 2 steps forward. I think the problem has more to do with how it all being done VS numbers.

[Pagy]

you keep saying that we're back to where we were...dps is just an arbitrary rate relative to hp and mechanics.

 

if that's true, stay at level 55 and attempt to do lvl 60 content.

 

be sure to report back with your findings.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Pagy

[Lotharofxev]

I have never come across an expansion where everyone takes a nerf at the start just so you can level to be right back where you left off. It's a bit odd in a progression based game. No one runs a race just so that right at the end, you're told to go back to the halfway mark and start again.

 

Agreed. Which is why I said, at the end of the day, folks will make their own decision.

[Levram]

Honestly thats kinda what we were thinking.

 

If you go into DF/DP with 156 gear that BW handed you from dailies, I bet BW used that as a new starting point.

 

As a guess, anything around 186 will act as if it's about 156 for all intents and purposes. If you needed to gauge how you might be doing in that content with current gear and If you plan to get a jump on getting more ultimate comms (which I think most would if they can). You should be able to tell how things might turn out.

 

Wow. No wonder you're so stressed out about the damage reduction if you're working on the assumption that a player in 186 gear will suddenly start performing like a player in 156 gear once 3.0 launches.

 

What the Developers actually said when discussing how the damage reduction will feel in nightmare Dread Fortress and Dread Palace was:

Eric: So as part of that, do you want to talk a little bit about, I think something that people are probably going to point to a bit is nightmare Dread Fortress and Palace and what impact this will have on those.

 

Rob: Sure, so the trick with that, of course, is relative to the players doing them now, they might be getting a little more difficult, and that’s true. We will make some adjustments to counteract the [changes to cleanse and interrupt cooldowns.]

 

If you're not familiar with clearing nightmare Dread Fortress, and especially nightmare Dread Palace, having that content become "a little more difficult" would mean having players perform as though there were one gear tier lower at most. A damage reduction of that size would make the nightmare Dread Palace fights very challenging for many nightmare progression guilds who are currently up to Council.

 

If players performed as though they were five gear tiers lower, as you assume, they wouldn't even be able to pass nightmare Nefra, let alone anything in nightmare Dread Palace.

[Quraswren]

Wow. No wonder you're so stressed out about the damage reduction if you're working on the assumption that a player in 186 gear will suddenly start performing like a player in 156 gear once 3.0 launches.

 

What the Developers actually said when discussing how the damage reduction will feel in nightmare Dread Fortress and Dread Palace was:

 

 

If you're not familiar with clearing nightmare Dread Fortress, and especially nightmare Dread Palace, having that content become "a little more difficult" would mean having players perform as though there were one gear tier lower at most. A damage reduction of that size would make the nightmare Dread Palace fights very challenging for many nightmare progression guilds who are currently up to Council.

 

If players performed as though they were five gear tiers lower, as you assume, they wouldn't even be able to pass nightmare Nefra, let alone anything in nightmare Dread Palace.

 

Stress has nothing to do with it. Lack of information on the other hand does. A general statement of, "A little more difficult" doesn't really mean much to me.

 

But, you may very well be right but I highly doubt 186 NM level gear will be equal to 180 gear (only one less tier) come 3.0

[VitalityPrime]

From what I understand from the stream, they are lowering our damage to be more in line with how long they want fights to be.

 

You're saying they want fights in this game to last longer than they already do?

[BuriDogshin]

You're saying they want fights in this game to last longer than they already do?

Well, it is kind of annoying to have gold mobs die before the end of your first rotation.

[SHAVEDKILLER]

Well if your on a non Pvp server , With a 3 to 1 Imp imbalance and your a pub.THEN ITS A FCKIN RUTHLESS GRIND....but otherwise no prob.

[Lotharofxev]

If you're not familiar with clearing nightmare Dread Fortress, and especially nightmare Dread Palace, having that content become "a little more difficult" would mean having players perform as though there were one gear tier lower at most. A damage reduction of that size would make the nightmare Dread Palace fights very challenging for many nightmare progression guilds who are currently up to Council.

 

1) How many players have been in much less CLEARED Nightmare DF / DP?

 

2) It's DF / DP. Who cares? Old content is old.

 

3) As to your other point - listen to the stream between 3:00 and 3:35 or so.

[Levram]

Lack of information on the other hand does. A general statement of, "A little more difficult" doesn't really mean much to me.

 

Well, the Catch 22 is that the Developers have no specific information to give you. Based on their comment (paraphrasing here), "We delayed doing LiveStreams into November because things are changing on the PTS all the time and we wanted to show the players the Class changes only when they were as close to being in their final state as possible," the damage reduction is likely in flux constantly on the PTS.

 

The Developers have had one specific discussion regarding their damage targets in 3.0. I wrote the transcript of it in this post. The logical conclusions to be drawn from that discussion are:

• 4,125 DPS is the Developer's current target level for Deception Assassin's sustained DPS in non-optimized 198 gear.
  
• 4,125 DPS is likely close to the target level for all other "burst" specs in the game, in non-optimized 198 gear, to maintain general Class balance.
  
• The Developers intend for Madness Sorcerers to have a higher sustained DPS output than Lightning Sorcerers, the burst spec.
  
• The Developers DPS target level for "sustained" specs is higher than 4,125 DPS for players in non-optimized 198 gear.
  
• These DPS target levels are lower than what the Developers expect players to actually be able to achieve as, "players pull a lot more out than that because they optimize their gear and other various things.”

 

TORparse has been down for months, so there are no DPS leaderboards that I can point to in order to "prove" the following numbers. However, among the top-end nightmare players in full min/max 186 gear, dummy parses in the range of 4200-4500 are being performed across multiple Advanced Classes in sustained DPS specs (e.g. Madness Sorcs, Madness Assassins, etc.).

 

Since the Developers' 3.0 burst spec target is 4,125 DPS (and something higher than that for sustained specs), for players in non-optimized 198 gear, I expect that those same top-end nightmare players will end up with slightly higher DPS once they are in optimized 198s as compared to their current optimized 186 parses. Stat-wise, those players will only be moving up two gear tiers (186>192>198) plus one tier of augments (MK-9>MK-10).

 

It also has to be taken into account that players will be five levels higher than they are now. This game has consistently provided a reduced return on player stats the higher they progress in levels (i.e. you don't end up with 100% crit chance as you keep piling on stats level after level).

 

Therefore, to end up at the Developers' 3.0 DPS target numbers, with only the stat boost from two gear tiers and one augment tier, and the negative stat-return impact of five additional levels, I would expect that the damage reduction would be in the neighbourhood of 200-400 DPS--which is approximately like a player performing at a 180 gear level when wearing 186 gear.

 

P.S. And just in case someone reading this becomes obsessed over the fact that I based my analysis on "top-end nightmare players," the DPS reduction would be approximately the same for everyone--performing as though they were about one gear tier lower--a 200-400 DPS reduction.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Levram

[Quraswren]

Well, the Catch 22 is that the Developers have no specific information to give you. SNIP...

 

Kinda sad isn't it.

 

and like I said, you may be right but I'm not sold on it being one tier on gear different.

 

I find it hard to believe 200-400 DPS difference is what caused BW to whine about NM raiders doing more DPS than expected and somehow it caught them by surprise as if they didn't design it to start with - optimized gear or not.

 

If they could balance around 200-400 DPS numbers we would have had better balance before now and they would have had a tighter reign on all levels of content numbers, not just NM raiders.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Quraswren

[Sorwen]

My main character is 55 and often runs things like Black Hole, Section X, Ilum, and now Oricon(I run Belsavis as well btu don't know how those dailys will factor into this change by their limited comment). I also do Flash Points off and on. These are not story sections so when 3.0 comes out he will do less damage and I'll no longer be able to do these until I regear. Sorry it is a nerf and it is only done to cause people to have to continue to re-run old content so they don't have to make as much new content.

[azudelphi]

My main character is 55 and often runs things like Black Hole, Section X, Ilum, and now Oricon(I run Belsavis as well btu don't know how those dailys will factor into this change by their limited comment). I also do Flash Points off and on. These are not story sections so when 3.0 comes out he will do less damage and I'll no longer be able to do these until I regear. Sorry it is a nerf and it is only done to cause people to have to continue to re-run old content so they don't have to make as much new content.

 

You could lose 25% of the level 55 dps and those dailies would still be solo'able...

[Halinalle]

My main character is 55 and often runs things like Black Hole, Section X, Ilum, and now Oricon(I run Belsavis as well btu don't know how those dailys will factor into this change by their limited comment). I also do Flash Points off and on. These are not story sections so when 3.0 comes out he will do less damage and I'll no longer be able to do these until I regear. Sorry it is a nerf and it is only done to cause people to have to continue to re-run old content so they don't have to make as much new content.

 

What are you talking about?

 

Black Hole / Section X isn't even difficult.

Strongs die before my Vigilance Guardian (according to some Forum Knights: spec that has very low damage output currently) finishes her first Master Strike.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Halinalle

[Lotharofxev]

You could lose 25% of the level 55 dps and those dailies would still be solo'able...

 

Speculation. At best.

[azudelphi]

Speculation. At best.

 

Not really speculation.

~75% of ~3k dps is still ~2300 dps against a level 55 target, which means closer to ~2500 dps for a level 50 target. 2500 dps is more than sufficient for Black Hole, Ilum, Section X. 2300 should still be sufficient for Oricon and Czerka. Not to mention AoEs for dailies.

 

There is no chance in hell that the deflation in damage is 25%, so I stand behind my statement that there is no way that the dailies are going to feel the slightest bit less solo'able at level 55 and level 60 than they do now.