Please, change the rules for "Needing" on gear.

[PLynkes]

While it's not an issue that bothers me personally (I never really pay much attention to loot), the amount of strife it causes amongst the general population leads me to the conclusion that maybe they should change it.

 

If we all had our own personal, private loot tables and what you get had nothing at all to do with what anybody else got, then this whole area of grief and woe would vanish overnight.

 

 

(And we'd all have to find something else to moan about. Which of course we would, in about two-and-a-half seconds.)

[Gleneagle]

If it is for an alt, then it isn't need. You have your decked-out char already but the party may be in their undergeared best char and have real need.

[Damask_Rose]

So it is OK for you guys that I rock up in an operation in purple 156, doing crap DPS / eHPS - possibly leading to wipes and need on everything that drops, rather than coming on my BiS 186 main that does thrice the DPS / eHPS (leading to a much more smoother run) and Need tokens for my alt that I want to gear up?

 

I don't understand that logic.

 

Personally, I'd much rather have you show up on your geared character and ask if it's OK to roll for a different one than show up undergeared and possibly cause wipes and enrages. The way I see it, rolling for one character is rolling for one character and I don't care which character it is as long as you declare it at the start.

 

Clearly many other people would rather you show up on your undergeared character so they can carry you. Apparently it is better to wipe multiple times and have the raid fall apart than risk someone being greedy.

[Gleneagle]

Apparently 'need' isn't need, but merely desire instead.

[Warrgames]

What do you expect you are grouping with pugs.

[BrittneyNB]

LMAO, I woke up and decided to check for new information on 3.0 before starting my day and ended up reading this entire thread. I have a few issues.

 

1. If you are running a SM Op, under geared doesn't really matter....there is a bolster. BiS will still give a significant boost.

2. Fresh 55 mains are no more entitled to loot than an alt. Period. When you need roll, you have the EXACT same chance as others that need. As long as the person needing for an alt is needing like they are playing said alt I don't see an issue. They are contributing to the group, they deserve a chance at loot too.

3. I really don't agree with the sense of entitlement of some people. So what this is your first 55? Run it till you get the gear you need. Guess what...I had to do the same, everyone does. You are not a special snowflake. Running with a guild will make this much faster.

4. I am incredulous that people would prefer running with person x on a poorly geared alt than a BiS main. Person x will need on the same items either way, but things will go much more smoothly on the BiS toon.

5. The looting behavior between a ninja and an alt is very different. If a willpower user is needing only on cunning gear and tokens, clearly they are gearing something specific. If they loot everything....ninja!

6. Etiquette dictates you should only recieve 1 set bonus token per run, unless otherwise stated, regardless of main or alt status. Some people don't follow this, GF is fickle that way. If it is a really big concern, join a guild. I am in a guild that runs 2 SMs weekly for coms and gearing new members/alts.

 

Personally, I don't gear alts through legacy gear, I'm too cheap. After switching 2 times (from item to legacy gear, then from legacy gear to the skin I actually want) each piece of gear is about 60k credits, it adds up fast. But if someone is willing to, that is there prerogative. Sorry if parts came off unkind, it isn't meant to be, I just couldn't believe what I was reading.

[Cernow]

Need vs Greed is a perennial MMO problem that will never be resolved because everyone has a different definition of what is Need. It's a fundamental design flaw in the genre that constantly causes squabbles, bad feeling and mistrust. The question is, why do we put up with it and why do so many games continue to make the same design mistake? This needs to change

 

Some other MMOs have learned that personalizing loot is the way forward. This can still be randomized to keep players re-running the content, either for themselves or to gear alts or companions. But if everyone gets something then there's a lot more happiness and a lot less grief.

 

And before anyone drops in the word "entitlement" it's not about getting something for nothing, you still have to complete the FP / OP to get your reward. It's about creating a fairer reward system that generates a more enjoyable and co-operative gaming environment.

[AlienEyeTX]

While it's not an issue that bothers me personally (I never really pay much attention to loot), the amount of strife it causes amongst the general population leads me to the conclusion that maybe they should change it.

 

If we all had our own personal, private loot tables and what you get had nothing at all to do with what anybody else got, then this whole area of grief and woe would vanish overnight.

 

 

(And we'd all have to find something else to moan about. Which of course we would, in about two-and-a-half seconds.)

 

I like this solution better than any other I've seen. +1

 

I generally believe that everyone has the same rights to any loot. If not, that needs to be established beforehand. Not an issue in guild runs, as this is all worked out. For random groups, take what you can get and use as you see fit. If it's something you don't want, simply pass on it.

 

So, while I think people need to just be cool about this stuff, I really do like that idea of individual random loot. I see no reason that anyone should argue against such a thing. After all, what good is accomplished by having the entire group stand around rolling on each individual drop?

[bdatt]

Am I saying something wrong, or is there just some reading comprehension issues going on in here?

 

Reading comprehension. Your statements were pretty clear to me.

[bdatt]

If we all had our own personal, private loot tables and what you get had nothing at all to do with what anybody else got, then this whole area of grief and woe would vanish overnight.

 

So, while I think people need to just be cool about this stuff, I really do like that idea of individual random loot. I see no reason that anyone should argue against such a thing. After all, what good is accomplished by having the entire group stand around rolling on each individual drop?

 

Please no. One of two situations I can see:

 

1) Every player is guaranteed a token drop. Makes gearing 8x as fast and is not something that will ever be considered.

2) Add 7 trash blues for every token in the personal loot table. Averages out to the same percentage over time, but the RNG would be atrocious (see what Wildstar did with RNG loot and all the burn out/rage quit; it was awful).

 

If you're pugging, just accept the fact you're competing with a lot of need rolls. Get over it. If you're in a guild run, hopefully there are set rules (one piece per run. declared mains before alts, priority to those present, etc.).

 

Edit: To further elaborate, recall the rage when Nefra and Bestia had a random chance to drop implant/earpiece/bracers/belt. Many threads "Five weeks in a row and no implant..."

Edited October 28, 2014 by bdatt

[Orizuru]

No, it's not a perfect system, and it never will be. But it can so much better than what it is now.

 

It can also get worse as well.

 

In games where there are restrictions on who can roll when loot drops I've seen loot left on bosses because there wasn't an appropriate class in the group who could use it.

 

The companion system in this game has really muddied the waters on the tired old Need vs Greed debate. I tend to follow the old standards and I never roll Need on an item unless I plan to use it on the character I'm playing. If its for an alt or a companion, I tend to roll Greed instead. However, I can also tell you that I have yet to gear a single alt or companion in this manner. The companions I have geared were all done from GTN and commendations because I might win 1 in 30 drops when I roll Greed.

 

If I ever get serious about gearing all of my companions, I'm fairly certain I'm either going to have to start rolling Need or spend millions of credits.

[Icestar]

There will be lots of these threads in the upcomming months. Players that needs for their alts when the characters that actually are there gets nothing.

 

After this XP event almost every player have atleast one character that "needs" each of the stat that drops so we will see alot of players needing on every drop there is.

 

Some players think it is a good thing that a alt gets the gear they need themselves others does not.

 

I votekick the ninjalooter and move on, it has worked so far. Most of the players I play with does not appreciate a player needing on items the character they currently play can not use.

 

It is a good thing that the character that is actually there gets first chance to get what drops, not a player needing on items they will later send to a alt in the mail.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Icestar

[Gleneagle]

3. I really don't agree with the sense of entitlement of some people. So what this is your first 55? Run it till you get the gear you need. Guess what...I had to do the same, everyone does. You are not a special snowflake. Running with a guild will make this much faster....

Fair play is now 'entitlement'? Hypocrisy is expressing dismay at the "sense of entitlement" in others while asserting that they're 'entitled' to need a blue for an alt that nobody can see... which item will, btw, soon appear at an inflated price on the GTN... but their entitlement is a natural right, and somehow not really 'entitlement'.

[Halinalle]

5. The looting behavior between a ninja and an alt is very different. If a willpower user is needing only on cunning gear and tokens, clearly they are gearing something specific. If they loot everything....ninja!

 

Your logic has one very big hole in it:

Most of us already have at least one character for every main stat in the game.

 

Especially now when there's "lack of good gear" and everyone rolls Need on everything.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Halinalle

[Orizuru]

Fair play is now 'entitlement'? Hypocrisy is expressing dismay at the "sense of entitlement" in others while asserting that they're 'entitled' to need a blue for an alt that nobody can see... which item will, btw, soon appear at an inflated price on the GTN... but their entitlement is a natural right, and somehow not really 'entitlement'.

 

I think the word "entitlement" has become so overly used in baseless arguments that anyone who uses it, be it appropriately or not, should be tied to a tree and whipped by lumberjacks wielding studded leather straps.

 

In just about every argument I've seen it used its just way of rationalizing personal greed as something better than the greed of another person.

 

As I said in a previous post, I tend to follow the standard of only rolling need when I can use the item as an upgrade on the character I'm playing. However, my personal belief is that it takes a full group to down the boss. In a 4-man group that means if one piece of loot drops, each person deserves a chance to roll on the item regardless of what they plan to do with it. How the item is going to be used is not important to me. What matter most to me is that it took a group to get the item and each person in the group deserves and equal chance at receiving it. Any attempt to label a group member as not-eligible for the loot is an inequality motivated by greed because someone else in the group believes they should have priority over another because they perceive their need to be greater.

 

I've learned that my idea of equality in loot distribution is not always the popular opinion though and I modify behavior to keep the peace. I will continue to see my way as the most fair and simple resolution of loot drama though. A system that gives players priority on loot based upon how they plan to use it is inherently unfair when loot drops are randomized. If a FP has 5 bosses and Aim gear drops in all 5 cases, there is no fairness in this loot system for a class that doesn't use Aim if they are expected to only roll Greed while the rest of the group is rolling Need. The only way to truly be fair about loot distribution is to give an equal chance at winning the loot to every single player who made it possible for the loot to drop.

 

Sadly though, a majority of players only find a system to be fair when they can leverage an advantage.

[BrittneyNB]

Your logic has one very big hole in it:

Most of us already have at least one character for every main stat in the game.

 

Especially now when there's "lack of good gear" and everyone rolls Need on everything.

 

No hole, imo, looting on everything, even if you plan to send them to various alts is ninja looting. Needing for 1 alt and bypassing any gear your current toon can use is not. It is no different than simply playing on that toon.

 

Gleneagle, call me hypocritical all you like, I'm specifically referring ops groups, which is where most posts here were directed. More specifically, I am referring to a very limited situation. Taking an idea out of context... Obviously needing on things to sell falls under ninja looting, those people should be kicked.

Edited October 28, 2014 by BrittneyNB

[Galbatorrix]

This is another one of those things that surprises me greatly that Bioware hasn't fixed in 3 years.

 

- Put a marker on all gear indicating Tank/Healer/DPS.

- You can need only if it's your primary stat and if your current job matches the job listed on the gear.

- You can not need on pieces that are in your inventory or that you're currently wearing.

- Greed is free for all.

 

This way, if you're an aim tank, you'll get priority if an aim tank piece drops. The healer or a DPS needing on these pieces for companions or alts is very selfish. I mean, if alts and companions qualify as "need", then every single class in the game has a need for every piece of gear that drops. So, they might as well just change the system to "need" or "pass" only. All the current system does is make it so that nice guys finish last. Because considerate people will greed or pass if an upgrade drops for a group member where as the jerks will need away on everything and claim "I was in here too! Don't be so entitled!!".

Edited October 28, 2014 by Galbatorrix

[Drockter]

So you'd rather have me do 1/2 the work I could on my main, just so you'd be able to accept that I beat your need roll?

 

C'mon, man...

 

What I would rather is that you use the Need/Greed system as defined. Needing is for you active character, not alts, not comps, not friends, not guilds, not vendoring, not GTN. That was the purpose. That was the intent.

 

You want to say that your Alt needs the item, then you should be running with your alt... and yes, I would prefer your alt is the one you are using. That way, without a shadow of doubt, I know you aren't a GTN/Vendor Ninja just being greedy.

 

That being said, asking the group if it is ok if you need for an alt is also acceptable. If everyone is geared, or others are doing the same thing... then no problem. Saying nothing, and needing on equipment that doesn't benefit the character in the group... grounds for a kick in any group I run.

[Foambreaker]

... I understand that some people want it for a companion...

 

You answered your own question, NO.

[Orizuru]

What I would rather is that you use the Need/Greed system as defined. Needing is for you active character, not alts, not comps, not friends, not guilds, not vendoring, not GTN. That was the purpose. That was the intent.

 

And who provided this definition?

[Galbatorrix]

Need vs Greed is a perennial MMO problem that will never be resolved because everyone has a different definition of what is Need. It's a fundamental design flaw in the genre that constantly causes squabbles, bad feeling and mistrust. The question is, why do we put up with it and why do so many games continue to make the same design mistake? This needs to change

.

 

The problem has already been fixed in FFXIV. You can be every single job in the game on one character (You just have to change weapons), so, technically, you could "need" everything that drops if you have all of the jobs leveled up. But, the devs made it to where you can only need on gear for your current job only. And also, it won't let you need if you already own the gear.

 

Seriously, this may be a hard fix for old gear in the game, but Bioware could easily address this issue with gear going forward. Attach a group role to the armor mod and only let people in that role at the time of the gear roll need on it. If they can change set bonuses to be attached to the armor mod instead of the shell, then I'm sure they could assign armor mods a group role for need/greed purposes.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Galbatorrix

[Galbatorrix]

And who provided this definition?

 

Common sense kind of already dictates it. And using semantics really doesn't work against logic.

[ivanhedgehog]

What

 

I would run the fp/op on my well geared character and need on things for my alt. I have as much right to need as he does if I actually need the gear too. I don't have to be on said alt to need a certain piece of gear.

 

I would then legacy the gear to my alt.

 

The run would be smoother.

 

The end.

 

you are exactly the type of person that vote kick was designed for. hope I never team with you.

[Orizuru]

Common sense kind of already dictates it. And using semantics really doesn't work against logic.

 

Common sense and logic dictates that if Bioware never intended for me to be allowed to roll Need on an item that they wouldn't present me with the option to do so.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Orizuru

[ivanhedgehog]

What is wrong with you guys you're pretending like I have a better chance at the gear than you do or something

 

If I'm running story mode it's to get comms or gear for alts. What makes you think your character is more valuable than my alt?

 

Please answer this. Would you really rather have me need it on my alt, while doing significantly less to contribute?

 

your alt has not put out a single dps, healed a single point of damage or held any taunt. unperforming characters should be booted. your alt wont even respond to tells..kick time.