Wherein Ellie rethinks her reaction to concerns over 12xXP

[Cernow]

Please tell me how, if the situation is bad now, simply allowing people to group with 60 greens is any better than allowing them to group with 55 greens?

 

Please tell me how, if folks are "underprepared" and "underskilled" (your words not mine), adding new FPs and a NEW discipline tree is going to diminish the problem and not amplify the problems?

 

Players with a strong main / legacy who have been using the 12x to quickly level up some alts, will likely focus on their main(s) come the expansion. Their undergeared alts will likely return to the pre 12x back burner.

 

Inexperienced players who might not ever have made it to 55 without the 12x xps, probably won't make it to 60 very fast either. Particularly as there's not going to be much class story to speak of in the expansion.

 

Everyone will be on a learning curve when the expansion launches. 12x xps will be gone. So I expect the situation will self-correct.

[Galbatorrix]

Such a narrow minded view. MMOs are different things to different people. Players have different playstyles, likes/dislikes, abilities/disabilities, amounts of available time etc. Forced grouping never works out well.

 

Many players like MMOs because they enjoy adventuring with other people around, but not necessarily formally grouped with them. This doesn't mean they should stick to playing single player games. But someone always trots out this tired old argument when the word 'solo' comes up in a MMO.

 

A good and successful MMO doesn't try to pigeon-hole players and supports a range of playstyles. TOR does this pretty well - there's lots of solo content, lots of group content and also a fair bit of more relaxed group content such as Tacticals.

 

12x xps is currently causing some issues with players arriving at endgame undergeared, underprepared and underskilled. But soon as the expansion launches we'll all be in the same boat anyway, with new gear, new content, new skill system.

 

 

No, games in general are different things for different people, but people that go into a Massively Multiplayer Online RPG and then complain because the game makes you group with other people are not very bright at all. It would be like me buying Skyrim and then complaining because I can't play it with all of my friends.

 

Also, forced grouping worked out great for FFXIV:ARR. It added to the story and helped players learn how to group and how to use their class in dungeons. It actually has worked out better for them than SWTORs system... since they haven't had to switch to F2P at this point.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Galbatorrix

[leihn]

No, games in general are different things for different people, but people that go into a Massively Multiplayer Online RPG and then complain because the game makes you group with other people are not very bright at all. It would be like me buying Skyrim and then complaining because I can't play it with all of my friends.

 

I wish I could play skyrim with all of my friends.

[Galbatorrix]

I wish I could play skyrim with all of my friends.

 

Did you rage quit Skyrim because the Devs weren't letting you play it your way?

[Cernow]

No, games in general are different things for different people, but people that go into a Massively Multiplayer Online RPG and then complain because the game makes you group with other people are not very bright at all. It would be like me buying Skyrim and then complaining because I can't play it with all of my friends.

 

You seem to fail to understand what the MMO genre actually represents. It is about sharing a virtual world / environment with other people you can choose to interact with. This interaction can take many forms, formal grouping is but one of them.

 

Forcing players to group during levelling in order to prepare them for group endgame play assumes that all players have participating in group endgame content as a goal. Such a blinkered view ignores the fact that MMOs are about more than just running FPs / dungeons, Ops / raids.

[EllieAnne]

Here's what I see as a problem. If I see a level 32, yes they may be an idiot but I have to assume they have some idea about what a rotation is. And I'm not saying the perfect rotation for their class like I see in guides or tricks like when DPSing and pulling agro, wait for tank to taunt then drop threat. What I am saying is that a player understands their character and is at least consistent. But lately I've seen people that cant decide whether they're tanks, heals or dips. People who are inconsistent in how they use stealth or use stealth in ways that it is clear they have no experience in stealthing. For example, if you have cleared out a section of KDY, why are you stealthing through it? The idea that stealth=slow and you don't need to stealth if no one is around comes from experience. The limitations of a DPS build tanking comes from experience. Knowing that as ranged you don't need to kite the same way as melee or that smuggler/agent are played VERY differently depending on whether or not you can take cover - all of this is comes from experience which noobs using the 12xXP on their first few toons simply are not getting.

[EllieAnne]

I do not get paid by the parent company of Star Wars: The Old Republic to teach, spoon feed, explain or acquiesce to their sense of entitlement.

 

What I am asking them to * KNOW *, I either researched, or asked myself. I put in the necessary legwork to not only learn the fights (or at least read a guide, watch a video), and /or subvert my pride / ego to ASK "Hey, any special mechanics on this one?", and to come to the group / party PROPERLY EQUIPPED.

 

I always help out people willing to learn and have questions. I was a noob once and will be again. All I ask is listen, try and don't be an idiot. Which also means I drink a lot when running KDY as often my groupmates compete to see who can ignore help, make no effort to help the group and be an idiot the most often.

[Gleneagle]

Here's what I see as a problem. If I see a level 32, yes they may be an idiot but I have to assume they have some idea about what a rotation is. And I'm not saying the perfect rotation for their class like I see in guides or tricks like when DPSing and pulling agro, wait for tank to taunt then drop threat. What I am saying is that a player understands their character and is at least consistent. But lately I've seen people that cant decide whether they're tanks, heals or dips. People who are inconsistent in how they use stealth or use stealth in ways that it is clear they have no experience in stealthing. For example, if you have cleared out a section of KDY, why are you stealthing through it? The idea that stealth=slow and you don't need to stealth if no one is around comes from experience. The limitations of a DPS build tanking comes from experience. Knowing that as ranged you don't need to kite the same way as melee or that smuggler/agent are played VERY differently depending on whether or not you can take cover - all of this is comes from experience which noobs using the 12xXP on their first few toons simply are not getting.

All good points, but I'd argue it is also a good point that people who don't have that experience have to have some way to get that experience. They aren't going to magically acquire everything you already worked hard to learn for yourself before anyone really knew how the systems worked. So (granted I'm using an extreme case for illustrative purposes) if nobody will group with them because they haven't run the instance how can they gain anything like your level of expertise unless the rest of us will take them underwing (given they aren't jerks and are willing to learn)? How many rejections and boots do we expect these people to suffer before they give up not because of the game, but because of the self-righteous?

[Lotharofxev]

Other than solitaire, is there such a thing?

 

http://memerial.net/308_obvious_troll_is_obvious

[Galbatorrix]

You seem to fail to understand what the MMO genre actually represents. It is about sharing a virtual world / environment with other people you can choose to interact with. This interaction can take many forms, formal grouping is but one of them.

 

Forcing players to group during levelling in order to prepare them for group endgame play assumes that all players have participating in group endgame content as a goal. Such a blinkered view ignores the fact that MMOs are about more than just running FPs / dungeons, Ops / raids.

 

 

You're acting as if requiring players to run each flashpoint once while leveling as part of the story would some how destroy their enjoyment of the game. Do you really not see the benefits of this? If not, we'll just agree to disagree. Personally, I think training players from an early level on how to properly play group content in an MMO is a great idea. I'll just leave it at that (sense some of you are getting so defensive about those poor solo players rights).

[Gleneagle]

You should really think about playing a single player game instead of a MMO. Playing a community based game solo is insufferably arrogant, selfish, short-sighted, ill and a strong argument in itself to avoid you and your opinions altogether.

You can put me on ignore, I won't mind. It is antithetical to your 'community' though if you cannot bear disagreement. Posting in an echo chamber so you only hear your own point of view won't provide you or anyone out here with an opportunity to disagree, revisit assumptions, and possibly grow, but if that is your sense of 'community', who am I to stop you?

[Galbatorrix]

You can put me on ignore, I won't mind. It is antithetical to your 'community' though if you cannot bear disagreement. Posting in an echo chamber so you only hear your own point of view won't provide you or anyone out here with an opportunity to disagree, revisit assumptions, and possibly grow, but if that is your sense of 'community', who am I to stop you?

 

 

LOL, that comment was a joke based off your comment. Lighten up, man. Play the game however you want, but I'll never fold on my belief that forcing players to do each flash point once while leveling would greatly assist their ability to actually add to end game group content. And no, I don't believe forcing them to do this would infringe on their god given rights as solo only gamers.

[Gleneagle]

LOL, that comment was a joke based off your comment. Lighten up, man. Play the game however you want, but I'll never fold on my belief that forcing players to do each flash point once while leveling would greatly assist their ability to actually add to end game group content. And no, I don't believe forcing them to do this would infringe on their god given rights as solo only gamers.

Well that part is actually a pretty good idea, but I would urge it should play out like Esselles: as an option for the same reason Esselles wasn't left as a gate everyone had to pass through before heading to Coruscent or DK, especially when almost everyone in the game is FAR beyond that point and has run Esselles more times than they can remember. Edited October 23, 2014 by Gleneagle

[Orizuru]

You're acting as if requiring players to run each flashpoint once while leveling as part of the story would some how destroy their enjoyment of the game. Do you really not see the benefits of this? If not, we'll just agree to disagree. Personally, I think training players from an early level on how to properly play group content in an MMO is a great idea. I'll just leave it at that (sense some of you are getting so defensive about those poor solo players rights).

 

I think it's a bit of a moot point. There really isn't much a player is going to learn in a level 10-16 Black Talon flashpoint that will help them later in the game. They may pick up a tiny bit of socially acceptable etiquette in regards to how loot should be distributed and how keep up with the rest of the team, but these skills really aren't any different whether you learn them in a group at level 10 or 55. In my experience I've actually found that there far less emphasis on these things in the lower level flashpoints, which could end up being counter productive instead. For example, it's fairly common for people to just roll need on every drop in the lower level flashpoints. The idea is it will be replaced so quickly that people just don't care as much, whereas at level 55 if a Jugg rolls need on a piece of medium armor Black Market gear, he's probably going to get an earful of complaints from any Marauder that might be in the group.

 

In my opinion, the best solution is for all players to be respectful of other players enough to be willing to help new players be better, regardless of the level of the players or content. As long as they have appropriate gear for the content, we should be working with them to help them be better players in the group without trying to create some kind of standardization where the only place to learn is during early levels of game play.

 

When players stop expecting others to "know their role" and instead focus on helping each other, then it doesn't matter if they learn the ins and outs of group play at level 10 or level 55.

[EllieAnne]

All good points, but I'd argue it is also a good point that people who don't have that experience have to have some way to get that experience. They aren't going to magically acquire everything you already worked hard to learn for yourself before anyone really knew how the systems worked.

 

Agreed but that what running quests at levels 11-20/25 are for. At above level 30 you should have some clue of what you're doing. Oh and running Heroic 4's I'm seeing the same thing as in Flashpoints so I don't think it's as much of "knowing the fights" as everyone believes.

[Cernow]

You're acting as if requiring players to run each flashpoint once while leveling as part of the story would some how destroy their enjoyment of the game. Do you really not see the benefits of this? If not, we'll just agree to disagree. Personally, I think training players from an early level on how to properly play group content in an MMO is a great idea. I'll just leave it at that (sense some of you are getting so defensive about those poor solo players rights).

 

I see the benefits of encouraging players to group. I don't see any real benefits of forcing them. There's a difference. Forcing people to do things they don't enjoy doesn't usually contribute to increased enjoyment of a game for anyone, neither the players being coerced or the people they are forced into joining.

 

The fundamental problem is that formal grouping in MMOs can sometimes be a rather toxic or challenging environment that not everyone enjoys. Also, some players have restrictions on their abilities or time availability which can make partipating in group content difficult. This does not however mean that "MMIOs aren't for them" as you seem to be implying.

[Gleneagle]

Agreed but that what running quests at levels 11-20/25 are for. At above level 30 you should have some clue of what you're doing. Oh and running Heroic 4's I'm seeing the same thing as in Flashpoints so I don't think it's as much of "knowing the fights" as everyone believes.

Hmm. My thoughts were trending toward a culture shift, similar to what we see in employment where people just entering the workforce have a radically different set of cultural needs than older workers, but what is being reported looks more like simple immaturity.

 

Children whose physical development has reached the point where the myelin sheathing that forms the insulation for the brain enough to bring abstract reasoning online usually express their new ability to think as rebellion, often marked by gratuitous assertions of independence combined with childlike center-of-the-universe awareness. Rebellion is usually sparked when the child compares what they have been taught with the actual behavior of those who taught them.

 

This suggests we are seeing the effects of very young players in SWTOR.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Gleneagle

[hadoken]

LOL, that comment was a joke based off your comment. Lighten up, man. Play the game however you want, but I'll never fold on my belief that forcing players to do each flash point once while leveling would greatly assist their ability to actually add to end game group content. And no, I don't believe forcing them to do this would infringe on their god given rights as solo only gamers.

 

Your belief is pretty irrelevant since it's not something they'll ever do. The one thing BioWare understands best is single player gaming. That's what the story experience is really for, and the strongest part of this game. As others have said it's ok for them to encourage people to group (and they do by providing vastly superior rewards for heroics and flashpoints) but making it mandatory is just going to cost them customers. It's a very bad idea.

[Galbatorrix]

I think it's a bit of a moot point. There really isn't much a player is going to learn in a level 10-16 Black Talon flashpoint that will help them later in the game

 

No, but if they had to do each and every one once while going through their class story there would be a gradual build up since the difficulty ramps up later in the game. Which is better anyway, since they could learn as they go along.

 

Jumping into a level 55 HM when you don't know what priority marking is, or threat, or party roles, etc is just asking for a wipe fest. If the player completed all of the prior flashpoints before the level 55 HMs though, then they've likely experience all of the different group dynamics in some form or another along the way. So, all they really need to learn at level 55 is the layout of the new FPs and the boss mechanics. Personally, I'd rather briefly explain the mechanics than explain basic stuff that people at that level should already know. You should never have to tell a DPS in end game that they need to kill adds as they spawn for instance.

[Joesixxpack]

Yes! Multiple wipes on KDY!

 

Yes I said it! LEARN TO PLAY YOUR CLASS!!!

 

Hear hear!

 

For some reason when I saw the thread title my first thought was:

 

"Ellie puts the lotion in the basket or it gets the hose again"

Edited October 23, 2014 by Joesixxpack

[LyraineAlei]

When Disciplines come out, the lower leveled people should be learning how to be their roles, since the good tank/heal/dps skills will be available sooner without having hybrids as OP, because they won't be there anymore.

 

With that, I think Esseles/Talon could be helpful in teaching people their roles in group content. If not that, then Hammer Point should. Hammer Point is the next one, right?

 

One FP being required in-story sounds reasonable. One. Not all, because not everyone enjoys grouping with random people they never met in-game before, in case of buddies and guildies being offline.

[Orizuru]

No, but if they had to do each and every one once while going through their class story there would be a gradual build up since the difficulty ramps up later in the game. Which is better anyway, since they could learn as they go along.

 

Jumping into a level 55 HM when you don't know what priority marking is, or threat, or party roles, etc is just asking for a wipe fest. If the player completed all of the prior flashpoints before the level 55 HMs though, then they've likely experience all of the different group dynamics in some form or another along the way. So, all they really need to learn at level 55 is the layout of the new FPs and the boss mechanics. Personally, I'd rather briefly explain the mechanics than explain basic stuff that people at that level should already know. You should never have to tell a DPS in end game that they need to kill adds as they spawn for instance.

 

I see your point. I still disagree though.

 

You said, "...stuff that people at that level should already know."

 

This statement bothers me because it makes an assumption that is based upon an opinion. There are other players who have different opinions that your approach leaves out in the cold because you are basically saying if they haven't learned this by now, you are less likely to help them improve. I would rather see people stepping up and teaching them what they need to know, regardless of anyone's level. This fosters good-will among the players and creates an open atmosphere where its ok to be new. Whereas the alternative fosters excluding players for arbitrary reasons and leaves them feeling like the community is against helping them in a lot of ways.

 

I think everyone deserves the chance to be better. If we begin ostracizing people for not knowing something before they have reached a certain level, then we are denying them that chance to be better. If they want to be obtuse and refuse help, then there isn't much that we can do in that case, but I still think they deserve the opportunity to learn from more experienced players before they are kicked or excluded.

[hadoken]

When Disciplines come out, the lower leveled people should be learning how to be their roles, since the good tank/heal/dps skills will be available sooner without having hybrids as OP, because they won't be there anymore.

 

With that, I think Esseles/Talon could be helpful in teaching people their roles in group content. If not that, then Hammer Point should. Hammer Point is the next one, right?

 

One FP being required in-story sounds reasonable. One. Not all, because not everyone enjoys grouping with random people they never met in-game before, in case of buddies and guildies being offline.

 

Well that won't accomplish what the person suggesting it wants either, particularly if it's one of the early ones.

 

It's best to just let them learn in the group content and others who PUG be ready to deal with players that are learning (or just bad). Forcing group content on a largely (intentionally, even) solo experience is a really bad idea. I've seen this done in other games and it always generates complaints and rage (last stage of GW2 comes to mind).

[robertthebard]

You're acting as if requiring players to run each flashpoint once while leveling as part of the story would some how destroy their enjoyment of the game. Do you really not see the benefits of this? If not, we'll just agree to disagree. Personally, I think training players from an early level on how to properly play group content in an MMO is a great idea. I'll just leave it at that (sense some of you are getting so defensive about those poor solo players rights).

 

How many threads have you seen calling for xserver queues? Requiring people to sit in that queue for a week could indeed have a negative effect on their gaming experience, if sitting in a queue for a couple of hours a day is having a negative impact on players now. I'm all for people learning the game before they get to end game, but since the OP is here complaining about people not understanding the game, then turns around and demonstrates that their grasp on the game isn't 100% either, whom should we be lenient with? All Smugglers and IAs can take cover. Now, whether they'd want to is another matter, but since that ability is given to both classes before level 10, I'm having a hard time taking the OP seriously. It would seem that they don't understand the game 100% either, while requiring that others do? Am I to assume we can just, as the OP does, blame this lack of knowledge on 12x xp? Isn't it more likely that they just didn't realize that Gunslinger/Sniper are essentially the same class, while the ACs that come with Smuggler/IA are night and day from each other?

 

My Operative was 25 right around the time they nerfed Orbital Strike, my Sniper and Gunslinger were both 55 by then. So it's not like I'm drawing this conclusion from limited exposure to the ACs. While both are IAs, the ACs are completely different in practice, from about midgame on. Something you'd think one would know, if they're going to come to the forums calling out people about their lack of knowledge about a class. I mean, if we're going to be judgmental about people not knowing classes, shouldn't that extend to everyone, and not just "those people over there that don't"?

 

That's the problem with requiring group content as well; people that think they understand the game, that really don't, will be blacklisting people that simply haven't learned something yet, and then those people can't advance in the game. 12x xp didn't create stupid people in groups. It's certainly not helping matters, but it didn't create the problem, it's been around as long as people have.

[SteelPiranha]

You're acting as if requiring players to run each flashpoint once while leveling as part of the story would some how destroy their enjoyment of the game. Do you really not see the benefits of this? If not, we'll just agree to disagree. Personally, I think training players from an early level on how to properly play group content in an MMO is a great idea. I'll just leave it at that (sense some of you are getting so defensive about those poor solo players rights).

 

Mandating group content to advance a single-player story is not a good idea.

 

Now if you want to require a mandatory FP quest to qualify for raiding, that would be a better suggestion as they have experienced the entire game leading up to that point and have chosen to participate in future group content.

 

Also, some people play MMO's because they are unlike single-player games in that theMMO contains a massive amount of people that you can choose to interact with. Some people enjoy crafting/RP/chatting/solo questing/etc.,