Ability Bloat: Being Addressed?

[Ryuku-sama]

Here's an idea if your playing a class maybe only play one roll not all of them? If your being a dps you don't need healing and if your healing cut down the dps skills you don't need every skill mapped out trees only tend to favour a few of them so maybe use those.

 

These are my sage's binds. Note the space left empty. Note the keybind I use.. And I have no problem playing.

[Levram]

Let me remember.... Oh yeah... Isn't something like Wither > Shock > other high DPS/threat abilities the answer???

 

Ok, so the Tank performed three abilities that generated X amount of threat. The DPS in the first threat position has also performed three abilities and has generated Y amount of threat. The new threat table is:

 

DPS 1 threat: 75,000 + Y

Tank threat: 50,000 + X

 

Unless this equation holds true, the enemy is still not aggroed on the Tank.

 

50,000 + X >= 110% x (75,000 + Y)

 

To give the most favorable circumstances possible. Let's say the three abilities of the Tank generate 40,000 threat while the DPS's three abilities only generate 10,000 threat. That is a 4:1 threat ratio in favour of the Tank. The new threat table is:

 

Tank threat: 50,000 + 40,000 = 90,000

DPS 1 threat: 75,000 + 10,000 = 85,000

 

The Tank still does not have aggro on the enemy as they need 110% of the threat generated by the player the enemy is currently aggroed on. In this example the Tank would not pull aggro off the DPS unless they had 85,000 x 110% = 93,500 threat at the end of those three Globals.

 

High threat generating abilities are not taunts and do not act like taunts, which is the point I am trying to explain to robertthebard.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Levram

[Ryuku-sama]

Ok, so the Tank performed three abilities that generated X amount of threat. The DPS in the first threat position has also performed three abilities and has generated Y amount of threat. The new threat table is:

 

DPS 1 threat: 75,000 + Y

Tank threat: 50,000 + X

 

Unless this equation holds true, the enemy is still not aggroed on the Tank.

 

50,000 + X >= 110% x (75,000 + Y)

 

To give the most favorable circumstances possible. Let's say the three abilities of The tank generate 40,000 threat while the DPS's three abilities only generate 10,000 threat. That is a 4:1 threat ratio in favour of the Tank. The new threat table is:

 

Tank threat: 50,000 + 40,000 = 90,000

DPS 1 threat: 75,000 + 10,000 = 85,000

 

The Tank still does not have aggro on the enemy as they need 110% of the threat generated by the player the enemy is currently aggroed on. In this example the Tank would not pull aggro off the DPS unless they had 85,000 x 110% = 93,500 threat at the end of those three Globals.

 

DPS can threat drop. Or does an untauntable boss would still be affected by a taunt threat generation?? I mean. If tank was to use a taunt would it put his threat at 110% of the DPS??? Or would the untauntable boss simply ignore it???

[Levram]

DPS can threat drop. Or does an untauntable boss would still be affected by a taunt threat generation?? I mean. If tank was to use a taunt would it put his threat at 110% of the DPS??? Or would the untauntable boss simply ignore it???

 

Good question. You cannot even trigger a taunt on an enemy with the Taunt Immunity buff. Your single taunt ability button is dimmed and you receive an on-screen warning message similar to "this opponent cannot be taunted" if you do try to active a taunt on them. There is no effect on the enemy's threat table.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Levram

[Ryuku-sama]

Good question. You cannot even trigger a taunt on an enemy with the Taunt Immunity buff. Your single taunt ability button is dimmed and you receive an on-screen warning message similar to "this opponent cannot be taunted" if you do try to active a taunt on them. There is no effect on the enemy's threat table.

 

Then you're stuck at hammering the boss hoping to get on top of the threat table while DPS threat drop.

[Levram]

Then you're stuck at hammering the boss hoping to get on top of the threat table while DPS threat drop.

 

Exactly! But robertthebard believes that high-threat generating abilities are the same as a taunt, when they do not generate threat or affect aggro in the same manner.

 

Having an enemy re-aggro on a Tank after the Tank uses seven Globals to generate threat to the point that eventually the Tank passes 110% of the threat of the player the enemy is currently aggroed on is not the same as using a taunt and instantly being given 110% (or 130%) of the current highest threat number.

 

In one circumstance (using high-threat abilities) the tank eventually pulls aggro back from the other player at some point which the Tank does not control, in the other circumstance (using a taunt) the Tank instantaneously pulls aggro on demand.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Levram

[Ryuku-sama]

Exactly! But robertthebard believes that high-threat generating abilities are the same as a taunt, when they do not generate threat or affect aggro in the same manner.

 

Having an enemy re-aggro on a Tank after the Tank uses seven Globals to generate threat to the point that eventually the Tank passes 110% of the threat of the player the enemy is currently aggroed on is not the same as using a taunt and instantly being given 110% (or 130%) of the current highest threat number.

 

In one circumstance (using high-threat abilities) the tank eventually pulls aggro back from the other player at some point which the Tank does not control, in the other circumstance (using a taunt) the Tank instantaneously pulls aggro on demand.

 

Ok.. Nice to know I wasn't wrong.. Your answer to my sarcastic comment left me wondering, thus my answer being unsure.... The first comment was meant to say 'hit the boss until you get aggro back'

[robertthebard]

Ok, so my tanking technique for that fight doesn't work. Got it.* Wither is still not bloat, which is what started this tangent in the first place, so *smile and nod*.

 

*My guildies are going to be surprised to find that out, but hey, check it out, people on the forums are telling me I can't do what I've been doing, so they must be right.

[Bryoal]

It isn't dumbing the game down though. It's a situation of "less is more". If we had fewer abilities that worked differently due to procs or changes of a character's state it would be more interesting than having 30+ situational abilities that do nothing more than give some stat changes or some extra damage at the expense of an ability slot, a keybind and screen space. Just for the sake of fake depth.

 

As for an example this is a screenshot from my UI on my Assassin. Haven't redone his talents since the patch (thus the couple of empty slots). Too much stuff:

 

http://i.imgur.com/e9UtLqT.jpg

 

A lot of that doesn't need to be there if certain things were baked into the class/spec.

 

You have sprint (passive) and a lightsaber charge on your bar and binded. After seeing that I can see why you want this.

 

Bad is bad

[Dimoxinil]

Centering Fury.. Useless??????? Play a Mara without ever usign Bloodthirst/Inspiration and Berzerk/Zen. Try it. Focus cannot. Watchman is shafted without Zen. Only Combat is viable but not optimal without it.

 

Obviously in the current design it's not useless, point is that the class should work without this annoying mechanic. The "must have" effects of zen should be worked into the skills.

[azudelphi]

Obviously in the current design it's not useless, point is that the class should work without this annoying mechanic. The "must have" effects of zen should be worked into the skills.

 

What? The must have effects of Zen are able to be timed and controlled by the player to suit their needs... isn't that a good thing?

 

For example, Zen popping during a shielded phase is useless. Zen being selectively delayed and popped during a burn phase is extremely necessary.

[Max_Killjoy]

You have sprint (passive) and a lightsaber charge on your bar and binded. After seeing that I can see why you want this.

 

Bad is bad

 

I stick that on/off stuff that's not touched in the middle of combat over on the sidebars to the right... isn't that what everyone does?

[Ryuku-sama]

I stick that on/off stuff that's not touched in the middle of combat over on the sidebars to the right... isn't that what everyone does?

 

No.. most will just click them once at lvl1 then unslot them

[azudelphi]

No.. most will just click them once at lvl1 then unslot them

 

Ummm.... what? I'm with Max here.

 

I have sprints, stances, vehicles, recharge, qt, fleet pass, etc off on another bar away from my combat abilities but still available as needed.

 

That's not ability bloat.

[Zoom_VI]

Actually in assessing my UI, there is still a lot of room for more abilities, the question is how many abilities before you hit the point where it becomes unmanageable, particularly from the standpoint of limited number of available keybinds.

[robertthebard]

Actually in assessing my UI, there is still a lot of room for more abilities, the question is how many abilities before you hit the point where it becomes unmanageable, particularly from the standpoint of limited number of available keybinds.

 

If they stay in the system we're using now, about level 70 before my tanks have to re-evaluate how their bars are set up. That's based on the current system, and is dependant on how many of those "new" skills are either upgrades or passives. As it stands right now, I could completely remove 9 skills from my hotbar and never notice, since I can't remember the last time I deliberately used my Heroic Moment, and the 8 skills that are bound to it. So really, I could go a long time under the current system.

[Gaff]

You have sprint (passive) and a lightsaber charge on your bar and binded. After seeing that I can see why you want this.

 

Bad is bad

 

I have those binds on my bars for other classes that actually use those keybinds. Just filling up the space with other stuff on classes that don't. I play every class and spec (actually have 43 characters total across two accounts) so I try to keep my UI and keybinds uniform across all characters.

 

Not that you know me but I feel like I have earned the right to a valid opinion on this matter considering how much emphasis I put on efficiency in my UI. Have even gone as far as to research a user's psychology when it comes to UI arrangement.

 

The stuff like transportation, stance toggles, items etc are not the ability bloat I refer to. Anything that is an actively used ability on those bars, and there are so many they spill out into the same bars I use for non-important things.