Class story expansion

[well]

Just a thought on this. You can put out anything you want but you need to have some relevant facts to back it up. In the early 70s they say there would be a Ice Age coming. Media went wild:eek: I'm still waiting and waiting...ahh the energizer bunny died.

[Oyranos]

I said that sound in overall cost allot of bucks, orchestra, voice acting in 3 languages (english, german and french) etc, fx, etc. If you noticed, it says 10.000 voices in all 3 languages.

 

Hero engine cost that much? All new mmos, with hero engine, didnt exceed the 50 million overall production.

 

Eso online didnt cost even 50millions and its hero engine-remastered. But they do have cheesy voice acting in some npcs lol. So I dont believe, that hero engine cost that much and its not the strong element of swtor (the engine), its not very well balanced, it makes it heavy... So I assume, someone took the money and left... (in Bahamas)

Edited October 14, 2014 by Oyranos

[Girdeux]

Not only does BioWare have contracted studio voice artists, it was stated pre-release that much of the voice acting for forthcoming class story content is already completed. It's not the voice acting that's expensive - it's everything else, plus the inherent inefficiency in developing content that the average player will only see 1/8th of.

 

Bioware paid nothing for the voice dialogue when the game released. It was all provided by LucasArts. Not sure if it changed after release.

 

I've definetly heard multiple things about whether the VA was expensive or not. A Dev said on these forums or in a Q&A that the VA was expensive

Edited October 14, 2014 by Girdeux

[Gomla]

I'd be okay with text based questing, doesn't bother me in the slightest.

 

Only gave any attention to planet and class stories the first time through then they became space bar fodder. Having text wouldn't really change anything for me.

[Darth-Obvious]

I said that sound in overall cost allot of bucks, orchestra, voice acting in 3 languages (english, german and french) etc, fx, etc. If you noticed, it says 10.000 voices in all 3 languages.

 

Now you're trying to grasp at anything you can to try and not look worse than you already do or having to try and admit that you were completely wrong and talking out of your ***.

 

Also it doesn't matter how many languages you record something in when you know how to keep the cost down as they've pointed out that they clearly know how to do.

 

Seriously, what does it take with you? There's evidence that flat out proves you wrong and somehow that's not enough.

 

Hero engine cost that much? All new mmos, with hero engine, didnt exceed the 50 million overall production.

 

Nobody said it was the engine that cost that much, did you not pay attention yet again? It was stated that player choice was basically what drove up the cost.

 

Eso online didnt cost even 50millions

 

Yes, it did. By the time ESO finished production it cost well over 50 million. Anybody that's saying it cost less than 50 million is referring to the game's development budget after it switched engines or rather what the current version of the game cost, without counting the money spent on previous development versions of the game.

 

It's like saying that Duke Nukem Forever did cost 50 million (or whatever) to produce just because Gearbox was able to finish it for a small amount of money. In other words the small budget that Gearbox finished that game with isn't the total development cost of that game over the history of it's development.

 

and its hero engine-remastered.

 

No, it isn't.

 

Why do you constantly feel the need to lie?

 

At one point the game was on HeroEngine, then it was running on a modified version of HeroEngine, before being moved to something new after the HeroEngine proved to be too restrictive for what they were trying to accomplish. ESO still retains HeroEngine coding, which is why HeroEngine receives a credit on the game, but ESO is by no means a HeroEngine game.

 

I'm guessing you never saw what ESO looked like running on HeroEngine or else you wouldn't say that the game that currently exists as ESO is actually using HeroEngine.

 

So I dont believe, that hero engine cost that much and its not the strong element of swtor (the engine), its not very well balanced, it makes it heavy

 

HeroEngine is a nightmare to work with in many ways and for many reasons namely being it's restrictions. It is difficult to program for and as such something that might not be difficult, time consuming, resource intensive, etc, on something like Unreal, Unity, or whatever else is really difficult to do on HeroEngine and as such takes longer to accomplish, requires more people, and drives up the cost. That's how game development works.

 

The bottom line being that SWTOR's crazy development cost didn't have anything to do with anything sound related. It doesn't matter if you believe that or not, or how many lies you tell, or how much BS you spew, those are the facts. You were wrong, only you didn't go about it simply, but rather spouted off about it with this insane sense of arrogance as if you words/assumptions/lies were fact, and then people took you to task for that. Weird huh?

[Darth-Obvious]

Bioware paid nothing for the voice dialogue when the game released. It was all provided by LucasArts. Not sure if it changed after release.

 

No, that's not true.

 

LucasArts handled the recording of the actors in their studios, but everything was funded by EA. LucasArts were the ones that apparently nixed the same gender romances for the vanilla version of the game too. Funny how numerous implied sex scenes were something that LucasArts had no problem with yet SGA was a big no, no.

 

After a certain point Bioware took over recording everything internally.

 

I've definetly heard multiple things about whether the VA was expensive or not. A Dev said on these forums or in a Q&A that the VA was expensive

 

Even if someone said that on the forums, it was either someone who didn't know any better, or it was something they were saying in order to avoid having to give a much more complicated answer. Either way, we know it wasn't the voices that drove up the production cost.

[bdatt]

To the OP, I would likely quit if they removed voice acting and cinematic cut scenes. I realize most people spacebar through stuff after the first time, but the VoiceOver during a flashpoint or Op makes replay much more enjoyable to me. And as others have said trying another game like wildstar made gameplay just awful.

 

And to be honest, any focus on individual class stories is not something I'm overly interested in. I appreciate an overarching one-time story but you have to think about development cost vs replayability. A makeb planet sized story line I've played 5 or 6 times (not dailies, main story). If individual to class multiplying cost by 8 I would only play each once (8x the cost, 1/8 the playability does not equal good ROI). The same dev time could be put into a new operation which I'll probably play 100+ times.

Edited October 14, 2014 by bdatt

[Sorwen]

1) First I see people yelling that voice acting isn't expensive without a shred of proof to back that up. Yelling it doesn't make it more right.

 

2) Would have to dig, but BioWare said when creating SWTOR that voice acting was extremely expensive. They moved forward with it in spite of the huge costs involved. Though I agree I don't remember them saying exactly how much nor how much of SWtOR's total budget was use for VO.

 

3) Even games studios that own their own sound studio compalin about the costs. It is no little cost to get a few lines let alone amounts of dialog that a quest can require(though cost is generally by time not lines). While I don't know one that has stated exactly how much(Star Citizen may have since they are being very open with backers) the more open companies(this isn't limited to game VO work) have tried to make people aware of the costs. Though we do know how little VO actors are paid at times.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Sorwen

[Darth_Wicked]

1) First I see people yelling that voice acting isn't expensive without a shred of proof to back that up. Yelling it doesn't make it more right.

 

2) Would have to dig, but BioWare said when creating SWTOR that voice acting was extremely expensive. They moved forward with it in spite of the huge costs involved. Though I agree I don't remember them saying exactly how much nor how much of SWtOR's total budget was use for VO.

 

3) Even games studios that own their own sound studio compalin about the costs. It is no little cost to get a few lines let alone amounts of dialog that a quest can require(though cost is generally by time not lines). While I don't know one that has stated exactly how much(Star Citizen may have since they are being very open with backers) the more open companies(this isn't limited to game VO work) have tried to make people aware of the costs. Though we do know how little VO actors are paid at times.

 

I guess you missed this along the way:

Ohlen began his presentation by dispelling some misconceptions about the creation of Star Wars: The Old Republic. Some journalists and fans attributed much of the upfront cost of TOR to its scripting and voice acting. Ohlen explained that this belief is erroneous: "[Voice acting] was a known entity, and cost was quite low in comparison to the cost of the rest of the project."

The issue is not digging but more so being proven wrong I guess.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Darth_Wicked

[DarthDymond]

1) First I see people yelling that voice acting isn't expensive without a shred of proof to back that up. Yelling it doesn't make it more right.

 

2) Would have to dig, but BioWare said when creating SWTOR that voice acting was extremely expensive. They moved forward with it in spite of the huge costs involved. Though I agree I don't remember them saying exactly how much nor how much of SWtOR's total budget was use for VO.

 

3) Even games studios that own their own sound studio compalin about the costs. It is no little cost to get a few lines let alone amounts of dialog that a quest can require(though cost is generally by time not lines). While I don't know one that has stated exactly how much(Star Citizen may have since they are being very open with backers) the more open companies(this isn't limited to game VO work) have tried to make people aware of the costs. Though we do know how little VO actors are paid at times.

There's a lot of nuance to what was actually said about voice acting costs:

Ohlen began his presentation by dispelling some misconceptions about the creation of Star Wars: The Old Republic. Some journalists and fans attributed much of the upfront cost of TOR to its scripting and voice acting. Ohlen explained that this belief is erroneous: "[Voice acting] was a known entity, and cost was quite low in comparison to the cost of the rest of the project."

Now his statement does run counter to your claim that "BioWare said when creating SWTOR that voice acting was extremely expensive", but some people take it too far and interpreted Ohlen as basically saying the cost was negligible.

 

Thing is he said that cost was low "in comparison to the [...] rest of the project." - and when the "rest of the project" involved developing the entire game, including their massive reworking of the Hero Engine, designing sixteen planets, over a dozen flashpoints, a major marketing campaign, CGI cinematics that cost a million dollars per minute,etc., etc., etc., ... well it's easy to see how something that would be a notable cost elsewhere can end up being just a drop in the bucket when you're talking about upfront costs.

 

VAing costs certainly fall somewhere in the space between "practically nothing" and "extremely expensive" - but I doubt they're prohibitively expensive for any of SWTOR's content updates.

Edited October 14, 2014 by DarthDymond

[Sorwen]

I guess you missed this along the way:

 

The issue is not digging but more so being proven wrong I guess.

I did, but then they don't say it was cheap there either. Assuming that any of the estimates from 200 million to 400 million for the whole game is right then the estimates of 80-150 million would be "[Voice acting] was a known entity, and cost was quite low in comparison to the cost of the rest of the project." Again I don't see anything that say VO work isn't expensive to do. In no language does "low in comparison" mean cheap. Especially when many studios talk about the high costs of VO work.

 

Edit: As to too expensive to make more fully voiced stories I totally agree that is wild speculation since they will not say why they will not continue the class stories as talked about before.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Sorwen

[Darth_Wicked]

I did, but then they don't say it was cheap there either. Assuming that any of the estimates from 200 million to 400 million for the whole game is right then the estimates of 80-150 million would be "[Voice acting] was a known entity, and cost was quite low in comparison to the cost of the rest of the project." Again I don't see anything that say VO work isn't expensive to do. In no language does "low in comparison" mean cheap. Especially when many studios talk about the high costs of VO work.

 

He says this:

Ohlen began his presentation by dispelling some misconceptions about the creation of Star Wars: The Old Republic. Some journalists and fans attributed much of the upfront cost of TOR to its scripting and voice acting. Ohlen explained that this belief is erroneous: "[Voice acting] was a known entity, and cost was quite low in comparison to the cost of the rest of the project."

 

Definition of "erroneous" follows as well:

containing error; mistaken; incorrect; wrong:

an erroneous answer.

 

You claimed it was "VERY expensive"; Ohlen states otherwise, going so far as to say it was "QUITE low", all things considered.

 

Dunno what else is there to discuss.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Darth_Wicked

[Jadescythe]

He says this:

 

 

Definition of "erroneous" follows as well:

 

 

You claimed it was "VERY expensive"; Ohlen states otherwise, going so far as to say it was "QUITE low", all things considered.

 

Dunno what else is there to discuss.

 

Quite low in comparison to the overall project does not mean quite low. If something costs $100 million dollars, $10 million dollars is quite low compared to everything else, but is still a lot of money.

[Sorwen]

He says this:

 

 

Definition of "erroneous" follows as well:

 

 

You claimed it was "VERY expensive". Ohlen states otherwise.

 

Dunno what else is there to discuss.

No he doesn't state otherwise. While trying to tell me what "erroneous" means you might look up the words he uses as well. Its doublespeak, getting the listener to try and draw conclusions other than what is actually said.

 

If you wanted to get into semantics you could say hiring VO actors is relatively cheap. That is true only in that the rest of the costs to produce it exceeds the cost of hiring them. Assuming quality production and that your not trying to get big name celebrities.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Sorwen

[Darth-Obvious]

No he doesn't state otherwise. While trying to tell me what "erroneous" means you might look up the words he uses as well. Its doublespeak, getting the listener to try and draw conclusions other than what is actually said.

 

If you wanted to get into semantics you could say hiring VO actors is relatively cheap. That is true only in that the rest of the costs to produce it exceeds the cost of hiring them. Assuming quality production and that your not trying to get big name celebrities.

 

I did, but then they don't say it was cheap there either. Assuming that any of the estimates from 200 million to 400 million for the whole game is right then the estimates of 80-150 million would be "[Voice acting] was a known entity, and cost was quite low in comparison to the cost of the rest of the project." Again I don't see anything that say VO work isn't expensive to do. In no language does "low in comparison" mean cheap. Especially when many studios talk about the high costs of VO work.

 

Edit: As to too expensive to make more fully voiced stories I totally agree that is wild speculation since they will not say why they will not continue the class stories as talked about before.

 

You don't have any idea how it works.

 

Bioware hires a large number actors under contract. A number people (no doubt yourself included) seem to be under the impression that they're hired per session, which isn't the case. Actors like Jennifer Hale and Steve Blum have contracts with Bioware which allows them (the actors) to provide voices across all of Bioware's games, which is why you hear them and certain other actors like Cam Clarke in every Bioware game. Bioware just re-ups their contracts every year (or agreed upon time) which allows them to be used whenever they're needed.

 

The 16 class voice actors are all under contract too, meaning they can be pulled into recorded voice work whenever they're needed.

 

The voice acting in SWTOR was no more expensive than games/series like Mass Effect or Dragon Age. Numerous actors are in constant rotation between all of Bioware's games. Telltale does the exact same thing with their games, the only difference is that Telltale uses their own specific group of actors rather than the known talent that Bioware tends to use. Any studio that is doing a lot of VO across multiple games handles it the same way.

 

Did you never wonder why Steve Blum has been in every piece of voiced content from 2.0 forward? Guess why that is? It must be because he's always the absolute best person for the job right? It probably doesn't have anything to do with the fact that while he's recording dialogue for Mass Effect and Dragon Age that they have him recording stuff for SWTOR as well huh? Do you think there's any chance of Steve Blum, Jennifer Hale, or Cam Clarke showing up in Shadow Realms?

Edited October 14, 2014 by Darth-Obvious

[Darth_Wicked]

Do you think there's any chance of Steve Blum, Jennifer Hale, or Cam Clarke showing up in Shadow Realms?

 

Damn it. Gag him and hide him in a dark cave somewhere.

[darthjanus]

The voice acting in SWTOR was no more expensive than games/series like Mass Effect or Dragon Age. Numerous actors are in constant rotation between all of Bioware's games. Telltale does the exact same thing with their games, the only difference is that Telltale uses their own specific group of actors rather than the known talent that Bioware tends to use. Any studio that is doing a lot of VO across multiple games handles it the same way.

 

Exactly! Given BioWare's previous projects, it is no doubt that voice acting was perhaps the most expected and predictable cost associated with their entire venture into this game. Unless they release an actual budget, we will never know the true cost or its relation to the rest of the project, but like in any business, predictable costs are preferential to the unknowns (such as creating your first MMO infrastructure).

 

The true concern around expanding class stories and additional voice acting is about "value." Story telling in The Old Republic is arguably one if its best features, largely thanks to BioWare's great experience in story driven video games. However, as can be seen in the various planetary and side quests with numerous NPC voice interactions, it can be overused. What we are currently seeing in BioWare's announcement for 3.0 class missions, is a continuing search for finding the right amount of development in individualized story content versus any number of other things the company could be working on. My personal take is that we should be very encouraged that they are listening to feedback and incorporating more class story. It's a step in the right direction.

[BeeblesTV]

Didn't they say there would be a class story mission in this coming expansion?

 

Its one mission. Hardly anything worth getting excited about.

[Damask_Rose]

Its one mission. Hardly anything worth getting excited about.

 

One mission after three years of no new missions at all, is worth getting excited about

Edited October 15, 2014 by Damask_Rose

[Darth_Wicked]

One mission after three years of no new missions at all, is worth getting excited about

 

And in the process, both factions will get to share the EXACT same story experience.

 

Said it before, will say it again: You are regaining one SINGLE class mission in exchange of separate faction stories, like you had on Makeb and in other planets.

 

Still doesn't sound like the most awesome trade-off ever.

[Damask_Rose]

I hope the trade off wasn't that direct. If the choice had been between 8 quests per faction or 8 shared quests + 1 quest per class, then SWtOR is in much worse shape than I thought

[Eanelinea]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Different voices for the same class aside from male/female differences? NO. I've heard you guys on mumble/vent/team speak, I DON'T want you knuckle heads voicing my characters. I like how they sound right now, thank you very much.

 

And as many people have said, it's NOT the voice actors, it's the story itself. They'd have to hire a team of writers to write more to our stories. They're have to have people QA the computer and written word aspect of the stories. They'd have to animate everything. They'd have to come up with SOMETHING unique for each class to continue the story.

 

Remember, chapters 1-3 are there to set our class up as the head goober in charge of the galaxy. Remember? We began as basically nobodies who worked our way up to uberness?

 

They already said they'd think about it. I, for one, am quite happy that we're at the very least getting at least ONE class mission with 3.0.

 

I just wish they'd frigging add in some more companion dialogue. I married my companions, can I get some love from them occasionally. I MISS them talking and butting their two cents into my convos.

[Eanelinea]

Did you never wonder why Steve Blum has been in every piece of voiced content from 2.0 forward? Guess why that is? It must be because he's always the absolute best person for the job right? It probably doesn't have anything to do with the fact that while he's recording dialogue for Mass Effect and Dragon Age that they have him recording stuff for SWTOR as well huh? Do you think there's any chance of Steve Blum, Jennifer Hale, or Cam Clarke showing up in Shadow Realms?

 

Well, so far, from what I've gathered/heard in the game with the Forged Alliances stuff...Lana is being voiced by the woman who voiced that gal (in a side quest on Balmorra) who you had to escort to that 'secret location' to either kill her or let her go due to her husband finding out she was knocking boots with some scum bag at the cantina. She also voiced the body 3 Sith Pureblood female on Nar Shaddaa who comes to give you information about the bonus quest you do when you're in your 30s.

 

Theron is voiced by the guy who voices Zenith, the consular's companion. (I should know, I have three consulars and three Zeniths).

 

Arkous (the sith pureblood guy with Lana) is being voiced by the same guy who does Harkun's voice on Korriban who is part of the Inquisitor's storyline. I think I even heard him in one other area of the game also, but I can't remember which NPC he's voicing.

 

And Steve Blum, dear lord. He's Baron Deathmark in Huttball. He plays some NPC on Imp side Oricon story line. He's Andronikos. He's all over!

 

I've heard Pierce, the sith warrior's companion, voicing the guy who is giving information to Marr on Makeb when you first see Marr face-to-face. And other places as well.

 

They DO bring back the voice actors. Though, I DO wish they'd bring back Doug Bradley VERY soon. I can spot his voice from miles and miles away. *Woohoo Hellraiser movies!*

[menofhorror]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Different voices for the same class aside from male/female differences? NO. I've heard you guys on mumble/vent/team speak, I DON'T want you knuckle heads voicing my characters. I like how they sound right now, thank you very much.

 

And as many people have said, it's NOT the voice actors, it's the story itself. They'd have to hire a team of writers to write more to our stories. They're have to have people QA the computer and written word aspect of the stories. They'd have to animate everything. They'd have to come up with SOMETHING unique for each class to continue the story.

 

Remember, chapters 1-3 are there to set our class up as the head goober in charge of the galaxy. Remember? We began as basically nobodies who worked our way up to uberness?

 

 

They already said they'd think about it. I, for one, am quite happy that we're at the very least getting at least ONE class mission with 3.0.

 

I just wish they'd frigging add in some more companion dialogue. I married my companions, can I get some love from them occasionally. I MISS them talking and butting their two cents into my convos.

 

I agree. I would actually more want to have some companion dialogue than unique class story. I mean I am happy about the class mission we get but some love for companions would be even better.

[Darth-Obvious]

I agree. I would actually more want to have some companion dialogue than unique class story. I mean I am happy about the class mission we get but some love for companions would be even better.

 

The companion voice actors have been back in the studio post 2.0, however we never knew what for. With 3.0 including class quests, albeit only one per class, I think it's safe to assume that you can expect to hear your companions again, at least for that one mission.