Oki-Wan Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 And this is why making TOR an MMO was a mistake. There are two main groups of people who are drawn to this game: the predominantly single-player Bioware fans, and the experianced multiplyaer MMO fans. There is just no way to give both groups what they want, because what they want is most of the time opposite ends of the RPG spectrum. As for myself, I hail from the Single-player Bioware games, where you both had the freedom to be an ineffective build and didn't have anyone else relying on you. There are certain builds and skill arrangements that were far more effective than others of course, but you could pick your abilities based on what you thought was cool and be able to finish every aspect of the game even if it took multiple tries. For exapmle: in Kotor, I can never resist picking up the Force Lightning abilities for my fully light-side Jedi character. Was this combat effective? HELL NO. Did it look cool as all get out when I did it? HELL YES. This is not to say I don't completely understand where the "learn-to-play NOOB" people are coming from. In a multiplayer game, especially MMOs, there is a lot of content that requires the player to be intimately familiar with their class's ins and outs in order to be successful; and in many cases, to even stand a chance. This means, to do multiplayer content on a regular basis you NEED to figure out your class's most optimal still path and STICK to it, otherwise you risk wiping on every "raid" and never being able to join with a group again (especially if word gets around that you aren't playing "right"). Increasing customizability will hurt endgame multiplayer content, while decreasing it will hurt player immersion (especially during solo content, which is where all of Bioware's best story takes place). I've been reading the forums here since the announced change, and this is by far the most intelligent, well-thought out post on the subject I've seen. The answer to the question I've had since this whole thing erupted is contained within. "Why on Earth would anyone wreck people's roleplaying fun for something called 'balance'?" What's the big deal about balance, anyway? I suppose 'balance' means the different classes must have equal 'capabilities' no matter what in the PvP world. This was foreign to me as someone who lives in the RPG part of MMORPG-ville. Still very disappointed I'll be losing my fun and eclectic choices in favor of conformity for the PvP'ers. My two cents worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harleyandsmokey Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Not really, I never used hybrids so it doesn't affect me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrellma Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 I'm thrilled that hybrids are going to be gone. Hybrids ruined the levelling experience for every healer and tank in the game, by forcing the skills they NEEDED in order to be effective in their role up into the mid-30's range. Up until that point, tanks and healers were little more than really bad DPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrutchCricket Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 And this is why making TOR an MMO was a mistake. There are two main groups of people who are drawn to this game: the predominantly single-player Bioware fans, and the experianced multiplyaer MMO fans. There is just no way to give both groups what they want, because what they want is most of the time opposite ends of the RPG spectrum. As for myself, I hail from the Single-player Bioware games, where you both had the freedom to be an ineffective build and didn't have anyone else relying on you. There are certain builds and skill arrangements that were far more effective than others of course, but you could pick your abilities based on what you thought was cool and be able to finish every aspect of the game even if it took multiple tries. For exapmle: in Kotor, I can never resist picking up the Force Lightning abilities for my fully light-side Jedi character. Was this combat effective? HELL NO. Did it look cool as all get out when I did it? HELL YES. This is not to say I don't completely understand where the "learn-to-play NOOB" people are coming from. In a multiplayer game, especially MMOs, there is a lot of content that requires the player to be intimately familiar with their class's ins and outs in order to be successful; and in many cases, to even stand a chance. This means, to do multiplayer content on a regular basis you NEED to figure out your class's most optimal still path and STICK to it, otherwise you risk wiping on every "raid" and never being able to join with a group again (especially if word gets around that you aren't playing "right"). Increasing customizability will hurt endgame multiplayer content, while decreasing it will hurt player immersion (especially during solo content, which is where all of Bioware's best story takes place). I suppose this is the real core of the issue. I'm only here for the story content, and thankfully their little 12xp scheme has given me the chance to get all of it without putting up with much more of the MMOiness. I always specced hybrids that I suspect would make most "pros" cringe but they worked for me in solo leveling (and held their own in most FPs as well) and were as fun as a game like this could make them. Now all that goes out the window and it may be the case that I'll soon follow it. Yet if we go over to the MMO balance crowd I see "hybrids were never intended" over and over again and I can't help asking "well why the hell not?" Who made "thou shalt be a Healer a Tank or DPS only" a law? Forget that, why must it be a thing in this game? It seems to me like if they balanced for hybrids for the start and then added extra perks to "pure" specs that made them even more crazy in their specific field, they wouldn't be in this mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inyourprime Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Yes and No. Reason why I say this is SWTOR now is just another drop in this market of MMOs that all, literally, do the same things. No, because well, you weren't unique at all. Hybrids were a tough thing to balance, with "end game" and pvp in mind. Your tank/dps build will always be outperformed in Ops and flashpoints. Minor differences between the builds you can come up with too. But still though, I am right there with you. The Vanguard I'm building now is just #203918 in line with the rest of them and I can't stand it. It's why I don't even do Ops or flashpoints anymore. I got tired of the know-it-alls telling me how to play my class. Oh well. At least with this system in place, we will get a more balanced game overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Yet if we go over to the MMO balance crowd I see "hybrids were never intended" over and over again and I can't help asking "well why the hell not?" Who made "thou shalt be a Healer a Tank or DPS only" a law? Forget that, why must it be a thing in this game? It seems to me like if they balanced for hybrids for the start and then added extra perks to "pure" specs that made them even more crazy in their specific field, they wouldn't be in this mess. The problem with hybrids is balance... It is possible to build a hybrid that is more powerful than a straight skill tree build, and Bioware can't test them ALL across all the classes... So PvP has become an unbalanced mess, made better and worse over time as they play with the balance. Right now, some classes are just not competitive at all in PvP. Since you can't just "switch classes" without a LOT of work, it becomes a customer service problem. This game is really geared towards casual players, more so than at launch, but that is what it is today... So the hard core MMORPG players who like all the choices... well, there is always EVE Online. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Yes and No. Reason why I say this is SWTOR now is just another drop in this market of MMOs that all, literally, do the same things. Except, it isn't... I've played others before... but I likely won't play another one, unless Fallout Online comes out... Why? Because it is Star Wars... it has... you know, lightsabers and stuff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drake_Hound Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 The problem with hybrids is balance... It is possible to build a hybrid that is more powerful than a straight skill tree build, and Bioware can't test them ALL across all the classes... So PvP has become an unbalanced mess, made better and worse over time as they play with the balance. Right now, some classes are just not competitive at all in PvP. Since you can't just "switch classes" without a LOT of work, it becomes a customer service problem. This game is really geared towards casual players, more so than at launch, but that is what it is today... So the hard core MMORPG players who like all the choices... well, there is always EVE Online. This is the arrogancy people keep making, without hard core MMORPG players, you would have nobody to RP or do casual stuff with, those people who are online so much, those people who you can always interact with. Those people to "boost" you trough content, yeah sure people are jealous they can solo kill certain hm bosses. They solo heroic contents meant for more people, there skill far exceed your own. But that is same as RL and without those hard core MMORPG casuals don't have any reason to improve. Infact it is casual who become veteran with this outlook, that is causing a lot of mess. Thinking they became special snowflakes, same as rp players who finally learned to RP suddenly stop interacting with beginners, well it is same as RL where the "upper" middle class think they are rich. When the rich usually say they are middle class without the upper So chase away all those hardcore MMORPG players, what do you have? Put 4 leetist RPer with no skill in a flashpoint, see the bickering... Well put them together someplace else they will bicker anyway hard to get along when everybody want the spotlight . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 This is the arrogancy people keep making, without hard core MMORPG players, you would have nobody to RP or do casual stuff with, those people who are online so much, those people who you can always interact with. The irony is that I see it exactly backwards to you... The arrogancy of the hardcore players... You know what? There aren't enough of you to sustain a large MMO anymore... at least, I don't believe there are... PvP I think is the real issue. The skill trees are, and always have been, fine for PvE... The issue is that playing PvP isn't fun anymore when it becomes unbalanced, everyone should have a fair shot, that is why we have bolster... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drake_Hound Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 The irony is that I see it exactly backwards to you... The arrogancy of the hardcore players... You know what? There aren't enough of you to sustain a large MMO anymore... at least, I don't believe there are... PvP I think is the real issue. The skill trees are, and always have been, fine for PvE... The issue is that playing PvP isn't fun anymore when it becomes unbalanced, everyone should have a fair shot, that is why we have bolster... PvP is always unbalanced, cause unless everybody is 1-1 on everything skill connection hardware. It will always be unbalanced, nothing to do with hybrids what ever myth. Lets play pong shall we, and when you cannot even move your bar as fast as I can, who has the advangetage. Or on your screen the ball is near your bar, but on my screen you are nowhere near the ball. See again point proven, some people are arrogant they just know what they are talking about But that doesn't mean I can't be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrutchCricket Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 The problem with hybrids is balance... It is possible to build a hybrid that is more powerful than a straight skill tree build, and Bioware can't test them ALL across all the classes... So PvP has become an unbalanced mess, made better and worse over time as they play with the balance. Right now, some classes are just not competitive at all in PvP. Since you can't just "switch classes" without a LOT of work, it becomes a customer service problem. This game is really geared towards casual players, more so than at launch, but that is what it is today... So the hard core MMORPG players who like all the choices... well, there is always EVE Online. What I'm saying is this was a bad way to do it from the start. If the system was designed to allow hybrids from the get-go and have them be the norm but reward "pure" builds with even greater buffs in their respective areas you'd get the best of both worlds. Instead of typing a huge response I'll try a simple analogy. Right now a potential healer class starts with a pistol and a bandaid and can spec towards either shotguns and assault rifles or medpacks and adrenaline. In the current system it's forced upon you that thou must only spec towards shotguns, or medpacks, not both and if you find a way to get both you're OP. But if you had designed the system around shotgun+medpack in the first place but then had BFGs or healing factors waiting in the wings for pure specs you'd have all bases covered. The shotgun medpackers could still run around and generally do ok at shooting and healing on their own or in groups whereas as the BFGer+Wolverine would be the ultimate group for endgame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 PvP is always unbalanced, cause unless everybody is 1-1 on everything skill connection hardware. It will always be unbalanced, nothing to do with hybrids what ever myth. I have a full set of alts... When I play as a Sorc, I own PvP... When I play as a Gunsliner, I get my butt handed to me... There is a difference, I play both sides, it is badly unbalanced... not just a little bit, but a lot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SebastiaanZ Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 The only Hybrid I will have to say goodbye to is Hybrid Engineering for Snipers ... for the rest I really couldn't care less. Actually glad all of them are gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 What I'm saying is this was a bad way to do it from the start. If the system was designed to allow hybrids from the get-go and have them be the norm but reward "pure" builds with even greater buffs in their respective areas you'd get the best of both worlds. They tried that... that is what the "top" pick in each tree is meant to be... it worked better back when there were 5 fewer levels, but those "top" picks aren't quite enough, because if you make them TOO strong, you unbalance it the other way. They are fixing the system, by ditching the trees completely and going to a new system... The old system was complex, this new one looks easier for casuals to figure out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drake_Hound Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 I have a full set of alts... When I play as a Sorc, I own PvP... When I play as a Gunsliner, I get my butt handed to me... There is a difference, I play both sides, it is badly unbalanced... not just a little bit, but a lot... That means you are beter as a sorc. Gunslinger doesn't have heals, they have cooldown and defensive option. You think in pvp as pure dps, you can sit someplace and pew pew Sorry but it is looking at your options, and what you can do with it. And good dpsers always get focused first! Or target that dies fast, cause they don't use there cooldowns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrutchCricket Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 They tried that... that is what the "top" pick in each tree is meant to be... it worked better back when there were 5 fewer levels, but those "top" picks aren't quite enough, because if you make them TOO strong, you unbalance it the other way. They are fixing the system, by ditching the trees completely and going to a new system... The old system was complex, this new one looks easier for casuals to figure out. It's not the same. For one thing, I was envisioning "top pick" equivalents being in a separate section altogether. That might also apply to certain passives/buffs currently in the skill trees that give rise to the OPness. Ironically, this would result in a hybridization of the skill tree system and this new thing they're trying. Put points into three skill trees. Put enough points and the real good stuff appears in a separate window but you're locked from the others. The problem is they don't want hybrids. This leads them to design powerful things in each field early and put them in a linear system, expecting point scarcity to lock people out. But you add more points, things become unlocked. Whereas if you allowed for that from the start, the mixing would not be OP (because you designed around it) and could then also design your top tier bonuses to be properly enticing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karkais Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 The only hybrid I had was my sorcerer, that was too lackluster for my taste while one tree only. So choice is between immobility of lightning (thats not going to change from what I can gather from the stream) or bland visual effects of madness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drake_Hound Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 The only hybrid I had was my sorcerer, that was too lackluster for my taste while one tree only. So choice is between immobility of lightning (thats not going to change from what I can gather from the stream) or bland visual effects of madness. It does turbelance can be cast on the move, you get one new instant lightning strike, rejuvante replaced dark infusion. So what are you crying about no mobile lightning in pvp did you watch the same stream I have and check the hotbar, cause my first reaction. Was F they removed heals from dpsers, but they didn't replace base abilities aside from dark infusion into corruption, and rejuvenate into base (rejuvenate was a beter choice anyway it heals less but is instant cast and a small HOT) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karkais Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 It does turbelance can be cast on the move, you get one new instant lightning strike, rejuvante replaced dark infusion. So what are you crying about no mobile lightning in pvp did you watch the same stream I have and check the hotbar, cause my first reaction. Was F they removed heals from dpsers, but they didn't replace base abilities aside from dark infusion into corruption, and rejuvenate into base (rejuvenate was a beter choice anyway it heals less but is instant cast and a small HOT) Yea I did. And one skill turned instacast does not make the whole class mobile. Plus the dev was regularly cheating and removed cooldown from some of the abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drake_Hound Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Aside from numbers tuning, think they probaly just like heals debuff in combat give a combat debuff on everything.Cause If the numbers for pvp stay like these, I am seeing a lot of 5 second kill coming up. 10 second is fine.But 5 second kills are a bit too risky, with latency issue, it would feel people get one shotted by somebody.And feel cheated. But this only a assumption, so don't take it for face value.But that is why changes to pvp are coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drake_Hound Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Yea I did. And one skill turned instacast does not make the whole class mobile. Plus the dev was regularly cheating and removed cooldown from some of the abilities. Afliction is instant, instant lightning strike procs the instant chain lightning, procs the hasted 1.5 forcelightning. Turbelance on the cast , that is 7.8 second of mobility casting, isn't mobile enough? 7.8 second without even adding shock to the repetoire. Are people playing different game then me ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drake_Hound Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 I mean I stun people with my mobile arsenal damage of 4.5 second.. Imagine 7.8 second on a lightning sorc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karkais Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 (edited) procs the hasted 1.5 forcelightning. Hasted forcelightning is still just as immobile as the non-hasted one. Edited October 9, 2014 by Karkais Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drake_Hound Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Hasted forcelightning is still just as immobile as the non-hasted one. And what does it do? Makes another person immobile! Or 50% slowed. So you still haven't gained distance in those 4.5 second. Well nothing I can do especially on a sorc player. With speedboost, overload, stun, forcebarrier. Stun bubbles. Ah well no worries what use is hybrid for you anyway ? I mean seriously what use is it for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TACeMossie Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 For exapmle: in Kotor, I can never resist picking up the Force Lightning abilities for my fully light-side Jedi character. Was this combat effective? HELL NO. Did it look cool as all get out when I did it? HELL YES. Im gonna let you finish, but my max light side Jedi Consular in KoToR had unlimited force despite spamming Force Storm and Death Field. Why? Because willpower increases force regen, and then theres also that sweet force ability Force Valour... Yeah Now if you'd argued using dual pistols in KoToR 1 I would have agreed with you. Dual pistols suck in KoToR 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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