Developer Update: Introduction to Disciplines

[chrisforester]

As a founder subscriber, this will be make or break the game for me.

 

I came here from WoW and one big reason was when they stopped the old skill trees (the current SWTOR system) and replaced them with a new system which, like the devs are saying about this, gives more flexibility, gets you into your role sooner etc.

 

I loved coming to SWTOR because it went back to the old way of doing it which is easy to understand: at level blah, you get blah, etc.

 

I think the truth is as you add levels you can't maintain the skill tree system. The devs make the point about dev time which is understandable but also it just stops making sense for this reason: imagine we go to level 100 - can you realistically provide twice as much choice/many abilities/quickbar slots!! as for lvl 50 ? Nope.. It needs to change because the levels are going up.

 

Fingers crossed. I love this game. I really really hope this doesn't screw it.

[DarthSmokealot]

I hope this won't come with a dumb-down.. I like the rotations we have.. They are easy but maximizing them still needs some work. I hope the utility points will actually be useful and allow for a numbers of variations and not just one for PvP and one for PvE.

And between.. With this new system.... I hope you plan to make so we can have more than 22 toons on a single server

 

 

yep , i second the more than 22 toons per server thing also , ..... but my main thing i want to see is MORE DIFFERENT CLASSES .... i want to use Jar'Kai saber form as is advertised in the original opening movie by satele's master ....... also i think a single saber and blaster pistol combo would be fun to play , as also it would be nice if there was different length sabers, i miss the short ones etc from kotor of old

[SilverWF]

Also, look at this:

The Disciplines System changes the way we think about and develop the classes themselves, which will translate into a more balanced game and the capacity to expand levels and abilities more often.

Wait, what?

So all our future updates are increased level-cap and nothing else?

[Jaedelyia]

As other people, this can make or break a game.

 

I'm really really afraid this will be a total dumbing down. Preview, twitch, video, time and so on will tell us more, but for now, it really seems dull and lacking of customization. Other games have well-designed skills trees. Each skill three can have like 2 "ultimate" / end-tree feat, and a bigger choice of feat at each tier, so player can effectively have more choice, more customization, go hybrid or fully invest in one tree, etc. Many viable option per class are available, etc.

 

Problem with SWTOR is that the feat tree were really bad. To get the end feat, you pretty much had to put point and just avoid some crap, or just orient your self more toward PVE or PVP and that's it. That's lame and give very few different build. But they could have improved that, they could have been creative and could have expanded the tree not (only) verticcaly but horizontally. Thus forcing player to make choice.

 

Instead we are getting what it seems a very streamlined progression. Only time will tell what is worth. Could be good, could be catastrophic. I'm at the same time eager and afraid to see more.

[Caustic_Agent]

I have no idea how this will work. As a fairly new player I barely managed to get a grasp on the current system and it included a lot of trial and error and several characters deleted. I'm not very fond about learning it all over again or ruining my current characters. Respeccing should be free for everybody - so you don't get to **** it all up.

[bzotta]

AHHHHHH (Screams of Joy)

[VanderII]

2 new planets; 2 new operations; new flashpoints; new armor set; new story; discipline hey hey how many things? Are you crazy Bioware? ahahaha very good, I can't wait new expansion

[Chicktopus]

Wait, what?

So all our future updates are increased level-cap and nothing else?

 

I think the idea here was that the Discipline system allows for the addition of extra abilities without the worry of re-balancing an entire tree.

 

I hope this won't come with a dumb-down.. I like the rotations we have.. They are easy but maximizing them still needs some work.

 

I actually *WANT* a dumbing down of the rotations. Part of the reason is that I've got all these hotbars full of similar(ish) abilities, and as the level cap increases players will either:

a) be upset there are no new abilities being added

b) become swamped in a whole bunch of abilities they never use

c) have to keep expanding their rotations, covering their screen in more hotbars than an explosion at the Cadbury factory.

 

This Disciplines concept is a step in the right direction, if we can get a similar thing for abilities as well that'd be perfect *if* the combat system were tweaked.

Let's say we scrap the concept of rotations and replace it with a non-mandatory "combo" system. This would allow abilities used circumstantially based on what their individual merit, rather than a pre-defined order, but also allow certain orders to be more beneficial if you can pull them off.

 

Let me give you an example:

 

Let's say you've got an ops group fighting a rancor boss. At 30%, he goes in to a soft enrage, increasing his attack speed considerably. To counter this, you have your group use abilities which slow attack speeds as frequently as possible (even though this involves sacrificing damage).

Another example: You're playing RDPs and you see a tough enemy charging you from a distance. You know you have time before he reaches you, so you charge up your most expensive and slowest, but most powerful attack, which you've spent discipline points in to allow it to slow the enemy, giving you time to retreat before he reaches you.

Yet another example: You're playing a Shadow/Sin and you encounter a Force-resistant enemy, Sorcs/Sages have a tough time with them and have to keep them at a distance, but you can stick to using your lightsaber-only, building a flurry of attacks in the window of opportunity immediately after having interrupted his big-hitter.

[VitoRazoR]

I really really hope it isn't a dumbing down of the game. I stayed with the Pandas in WoW (from Vanilla) but left when they made the skill tree changes. I like it here, don't make me leave! Having less options leads to more cookie-cutter, only one best way of doing things. Everybody becomes generic apart from their armour. My powertech had DPS whilst levelling balanced with some tanking for the FPs. That was how /I/ decided to skill up. And I'm really really happy that my powertech has a 9 button rotation - I'm sick of mashing 2 or 3 buttons like on my gunslinger. I'm sceptical, but please Bioware, surprise me!

[TomPH]

I am a founder subscriber and I usually avoid posting on the forum but this time i have to.

 

When WoW made this change and dumbed down their skill trees to what they have now I quit.

 

This has a high chance of breaking the game for me. They are taking away a lot of choice in how to play a character/class with this change in my opinion.

 

I will give it a chance up until the point that I am finished with the story (rep and imp side) of the new expansion but if this new system is as bad as what WoW did then I have to reevaluate my time playing this game. I am mainly here to have fun and seeing how this took the fun out of WoW for me I am very skeptical about this. I don't like it.

Edited October 7, 2014 by TomPH

[JohnKressh]

I have always loved the skill tree system, and personally think that it was fine.

 

As a long time player, I am not very fond of this change. Yes, the skill trees did not really pick up the pace until around level 30-ish, but honestly, I liked the idea of having so many options to take, especially the hybrid PvP builds.

I see this as a dumb-downed variant, which is more noob-friendly, but seriously limits personal preference for me.

 

I really hope there is more player choice in this than is described, but I pray to the Lord Revan that whatever you chose to change, you change in the right direction. Because honestly, I love this game for its complex class building, and making class presets may really ruin things.

 

Not sure what other people may think, but I really hope this turns out better than what it appears to be right now.

[JohnKressh]

As other people, this can make or break a game.

 

I'm really really afraid this will be a total dumbing down. Preview, twitch, video, time and so on will tell us more, but for now, it really seems dull and lacking of customization. Other games have well-designed skills trees. Each skill three can have like 2 "ultimate" / end-tree feat, and a bigger choice of feat at each tier, so player can effectively have more choice, more customization, go hybrid or fully invest in one tree, etc. Many viable option per class are available, etc.

 

Problem with SWTOR is that the feat tree were really bad. To get the end feat, you pretty much had to put point and just avoid some crap, or just orient your self more toward PVE or PVP and that's it. That's lame and give very few different build. But they could have improved that, they could have been creative and could have expanded the tree not (only) verticcaly but horizontally. Thus forcing player to make choice.

 

Instead we are getting what it seems a very streamlined progression. Only time will tell what is worth. Could be good, could be catastrophic. I'm at the same time eager and afraid to see more.

 

Amen, brother!

[RaaviArda]

I'm going to repeat what others said already: if this is a dumb-down for console kiddies who can't manage more than 2 buttons then BioWarEA can kiss my sub goodbye. And for now what I've seen does look like a dumb-down.

 

I came here from WoW after they did the very same thing like many people did. Consider this...

[GoldenHornet]

This new system could be interesting.

But, since you are changing the spec system, please for the love of god, now would be a good time to create a multi-spec save option (spec, gear and keybind save), like you know, every other decent mmo on the market. Field respec has been available for so long, the quality of life that a multi-spec save option brings is greatly needed.

 

This please!

 

There's a reason I'm playing Rift at the moment instead of SW:TOR. The quality of life features make the game much more pleasant. Multi-roles that can be switched instantly whenever you are out of combat is tremendously useful. My rogue can switch from DPS to Tank to Healer depending on what the group or I need at the time.

 

That added to a decent dye system and more appearance tabs per character than I could reasonably use make the game world a joy to be in.

[LordTux]

He's a noob. That's what they do lol. I have a hybrid build for pvp, it doesn't top any dps charts but its utility is unmatched and I do more for the team than most others. This is nothing more than biofail's attempt to keep people from making up their own specs. If they actually let people test the game out for a decent amount of time before they go live they could avoid these issues, but they don't have the budget for that. They don't have the budget to redo the trees either. Any good ideas they might have will not be fully realized because of their ridiculous manpower shortage. Plain and simple. Sure the level 15 f2p people will love it but I'm guessing a lot of players who have one of every class who play multiple toons and multiple roles in ops will probably hate it. Hell most of these devs only have one or two 55s.

 

What is your unique build?

[LordTux]

I am a founder subscriber and I usually avoid posting on the forum but this time i have to.

 

When WoW made this change and dumbed down their skill trees to what they have now I quit.

 

This has a high chance of breaking the game for me. They are taking away a lot of choice in how to play a character/class with this change in my opinion.

 

I will give it a chance up until the point that I am finished with the story (rep and imp side) of the new expansion but if this new system is as bad as what WoW did then I have to reevaluate my time playing this game. I am mainly here to have fun and seeing how this took the fun out of WoW for me I am very skeptical about this. I don't like it.

 

WOW ain`t a reference in the MMO world, succefull MMO i may talk about maybe Knight Online wich has more than 15 years of success and still has overloaded servers today, WOW copied them, why wouldn`t star wars?

Yet Knight online provides more unique builds than any with stats builds in adddistion to skill tree build.

 

WOW was since it`s lunch a dumb thing.

Edited October 7, 2014 by LordTux
mistake on `maybe`

[Gleneagle]

This is an intelligent developer and I am confident that much effort went into the risk analysis. My fear is that the end users they sampled for their use-cases weren't me, and my needs may not be met. I know I didn't like the similar change imposed by Turbine on LotRO.

 

We shall see. May luck be ours, because however careful the mind is, it is still prone to fault.

[ChroniKill]

I absolutely love this idea and I'm really looking forward to it. At least with this system they can start to give roles a purpose and fun abilities/rotation from an early stage.

 

It might also allow more regular updates to new class abilities and to new class specs entirely if they can restrict the chance to break with a hybrid. I really hope it goes live on the pts for some early testing.

[Augost]

This is an Bad decision. Sorry but this is my opinion.

[demotivator]

I am not a fan of such a big change especially when you have spent 3 years being used to skill trees.

 

Well hopefully it all works out.

Edited October 7, 2014 by demotivator

[GENERLSAGAN]

Hopefully this means Jet Boost will available to all power tech classes and Storm for all Vanguard classes.

[truchaos]

I am really curious to see what is considered utility and what is considered to be a discipline's core abilities. Would it be possible to post up the 'utility lists' for each of the classes and if certain utilities are locked into certain disciplines within those classes?

 

Take the increased absorb for shield from the lightning tree of sorcs- as a full spec'ed corruption I consider this ability to be a requirement in the build, not a 'utility'. All the full spec'ed corruption sorcs I know take it- if it was locked behind the lightning disciple that would be a sad day.

[Vairden]

Adding a perspective from yet another of your customers...

 

Me: I've been a subscriber since launch, and I've loved every element of this game except for PVP/GSF (personal preference). Currently, I run in a Nightmare ops group and really enjoy it. I have also gotten at least one of each class to 55 because I enjoyed the story lines. I was still locked into a WoW subscription for 10 months after SWTOR launched, but I never even logged into that game again due to the story and skill combinations available here. This game was superior in every way, in my opinion. I even brought 5 other subscribers with me who felt the same way.

 

My concern: This change, and how it was implemented, is the reason I quit WoW after 6 years of playing and end-game raiding. When they moved to this ridiculous system, there was no longer any joy in leveling, nor was there even a CHANCE of encountering somebody with a different build or opinion on play-styles. You have already removed the class stories, and that was disappointing but it was not a deal breaker since there were the basics of a story still implemented on Makeb. This additional change may be more than I'm interested in supporting.

 

I am still hopeful that your implementation will surprise me, and that this is not what it appears to be. Your explanations of disciplines are well thought out and warrant me listening further. I am willing to give you a fair chance to explain this decision and how it will benefit me as a customer (for example: maybe this leads to simple WELL IMPLEMENTED dual specs with saved quickbars). I really WANT to continue enjoying this game, but I'm having a very hard time seeing an upside in this decision. Please present some real, solid benefits to the player that come out of this decision (and are not directly related to PVP or "balancing"). I want to have a reason to preorder the expansion, or order at all. As it stands, I am extremely skeptical, and for this customer, it will all come down to how this is implemented.

 

TL/DR: I want to continue loving this game, but you're making it difficult for me. I'm BEGGING you to convince me that this will still be fun so I can keep throwing money at you.

_____________________

[Trollokdamus]

Anyone that defends WoW needs to uninstall SWTOR. WoW was lame from day one. Lets just hope they don't do the same here so we will end up seeing more of your kind.

"Don't tell me what to do and i won't tell you where you should go." ©

 

On a different note, i'm glad that people like you are nothing but a vocal minority here.

 

I was still locked into a WoW subscription for 10 months after SWTOR launched, but I never even logged into that game again due to the story and skill combinations available here. This game was superior in every way, in my opinion. I even brought 5 other subscribers with me who felt the same way.

This change, and how it was implemented, is the reason I quit WoW after 6 years of playing and end-game raiding.

I see a contradiction here. It seems the real reason why you left WoW is that you've just found a game that suits your tastes better.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Trollokdamus

[Punkskater]

*** seriously you are killing this game!!!! Edited October 7, 2014 by Punkskater