I respect juggs and guardians!

[Raansu]

Really? Ignorance? Oh please do tell god of all that is knowledge.

 

Arrogance much?

 

The difference between kolto and EP is kolto just heals up to 35%. EP literally gives you an additional 30% hp which in turns heals you, but a simple example would be that in tank spec I have 40k hp. If I used EP with full hp I'd have over 50k hp. Case in point, you actually have 30% more total hp, thus the medpac heals for more than it normally would.

 

Tank

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CA6Y8nllN04&feature=youtu.be

 

Vengeance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zv9v5h7KzhQ&feature=youtu.be

 

If thats not practically a full heal then I don't know what is.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Raansu

[Raansu]

lol at people whining about mara survivability

 

and as far as juggs go, their survivability is only a problem in yolos and 1v1s, the latter not mattering at all and the former not mattering to most

 

In the current meta, marauders survivability is pretty terrible.

[NuSeC]

3 tank ACs with dps specs. one has survivability that greatly surpasses the others while continuing to deal dmg.

 

 

psst: it's the jugg

 

 

Really? And what one(s) have a hard stun that they can use and keep fighting through (that can be used in dps spec)? Or the ability to stealth out of combat or attack from stealth? Or any real ranged attack? Or have a ranged AOE taunt?

 

 

psst: it's NOT the jugg

 

 

Different classes/different abilities.

[Raansu]

Really? And what one(s) have a hard stun that they can use and keep fighting through (that can be used in dps spec)? Or the ability to stealth out of combat or attack from stealth? Or any real ranged attack? Or have a ranged AOE taunt?

 

 

psst: it's NOT the jugg

 

 

Different classes/different abilities.

 

You know force push has a recovery animation right? Its basically a stun for 2s. With that said, juggernaut dps does NOT need a hardstun. Ravage already roots and you get cc immunity from leaps. Complaining about stuns as a juggernaut is pretty laughable.

[NuSeC]

You know force push has a recovery animation right? Its basically a stun for 2s. With that said, juggernaut dps does NOT need a hardstun. Ravage already roots and you get cc immunity from leaps. Complaining about stuns as a juggernaut is pretty laughable.

 

LOL you're laughable.

 

And you are not doing any damage to them during that "stun" and a root is not a stun.

 

You would argue with a wall if you ran into it.

 

I NEVER SAID THEY NEEDED A HARD STUN. We were talking about differences. He asked a question then I responded with my own. As in the differences in abilities between tank classes.

 

Context young sir, context. Maybe read it twice?

[Raansu]

LOL you're laughable.

 

And you are not doing any damage to them during that "stun" and a root is not a stun.

 

You would argue with a wall if you ran into it.

 

I NEVER SAID THEY NEEDED A HARD STUN. We were talking about differences. He asked a question then I responded with my own. As in the differences in abilities between tank classes.

 

Context young sir, context. Maybe read it twice?

 

All 3 tank classes have hard stuns. Happy?

 

Also force push is not a root. It knocks the player down.

 

Honestly you people probably play these classes more then me and half the time most of you know nothing about the class.....*sigh*

Edited September 25, 2014 by Raansu

[NuSeC]

All 3 tank classes have hard stuns. Happy?

 

Also force push is not a root. It knocks the player down.

 

Show me where I said force push was either a root or a stun? You are the one calling it a stun.

 

Also you have reading comprehension issues or you enjoy making straw-man arguments.

 

And yeah... a warrior gets a hard stun if he rolls a tank...

 

The purpose of the post was to show that the other tank classes have awesome abilities in their arsenal that the jug/knight do not. That's all. Reading anything more into it than that is your own fault.

[Raansu]

Show me where I said force push was either a root or a stun? You are the one calling it a stun.

 

And you are not doing any damage to them during that "stun" and a root is not a stun.

 

The sentence indicates you are still on the subject of force push. There is no break in that sentence that changes the subject, thus it is safe to assume you are still on the same subject (force push).

 

The purpose of the post was to show that the other tank classes have awesome abilities in their arsenal that the jug/knight do not. That's all. Reading anything more into it than that is your own fault.

 

Neither VG or shadow CD's can even compare to both jugg tank and dps specs (especially vengeance). In terms of tanks, ranked team wont even bring anything but a jugg tank. Utility of a jugg is simply far higher and the class itself is far tankier than the other two tank classes.

 

Also, I'm still waiting on a reply from my video post for the endure pain comment. You have yet to enlighten me on how it is not a h2f.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Raansu

[foxmob]

Really? And what one(s) have a hard stun that they can use and keep fighting through (that can be used in dps spec)? Or the ability to stealth out of combat or attack from stealth? Or any real ranged attack? Or have a ranged AOE taunt?

 

 

psst: it's NOT the jugg

 

 

Different classes/different abilities.

 

awe > carbonize.

 

CC immunity > CC

 

ability to leap into and out of trouble > ability to pull things closer

 

but those are all close difference. here's what we'll do. give PTs dps that's as much better than any other sin or jugg as jugg survivability is better than PTs and sins. I'll take that trade (you wouldn't)

[NuSeC]

The sentence indicates you are still on the subject of force push. There is no break in that sentence that changes the subject, thus it is safe to assume you are still on the same subject (force push).

 

 

 

Neither VG or shadow CD's can even compare to both jugg tank and dps specs (especially vengeance). In terms of tanks, ranked team wont even bring anything but a jugg tank. Utility of a jugg is simply far higher and the class itself is far tankier than the other two tank classes.

 

Also, I'm still waiting on a reply from my video post for the endure pain comment. You have yet to enlighten me on how it is not a h2f.

 

The sentence indicates you are still on the subject of force push. There is no break in that sentence that changes the subject, thus it is safe to assume you are still on the same subject (force push).

 

1) You mentioned ravage root as a reason to not give a hard stun to jugs (which wasn't my argument anyways). My point was that ravage roots and don't stun. As in they can still do damage/pop CDs while ravage is going... It is not a hard stun. Thats all... nothing more and nothing less.

 

2) You are the one claiming push is a 2 s stun (and here I thought it was a knockback). That's nice but the comment was about doing damage during a stun. You are not doing damage during that "stun" (as you call it) because you pushed them away and now have to charge back to them.

 

Neither VG or shadow CD's can even compare to both jugg tank and dps specs (especially vengeance). In terms of tanks, ranked team wont even bring anything but a jugg tank. Utility of a jugg is simply far higher and the class itself is far tankier than the other two tank classes.

 

 

3) So stealth is a useless CD? What about kolto overload? Class specific abilities is what I was talking about.

 

 

 

Also, I'm still waiting on a reply from my video post for the endure pain comment. You have yet to enlighten me on how it is not a h2f.

 

 

4) Its not heal to full... you proved it yourself. You were at 1/3 hp popped 2 cooldowns to get to 90% that is a 60% heal. So you get 1/3 more of a heal by combining it with EP. you are missing about 40% there champ... unless my math is wrong, and it's not.

Your first vid started at 26% then to 50 then to 87? its fuzzy... Missing about 40% health there bud before any claim of a h2f. So no, not h2f. Not like I had to watch it to know the outcome...

 

Your second is roughly the same. You didn't start from 0 or even close and you didn't end at 100. and you keep talking about this acting like nobody else has the ability of popping a medpack. Or medpack in combo with another cooldown.

[NuSeC]

awe > carbonize.

 

CC immunity > CC

 

ability to leap into and out of trouble > ability to pull things closer

 

but those are all close difference. here's what we'll do. give PTs dps that's as much better than any other sin or jugg as jugg survivability is better than PTs and sins. I'll take that trade (you wouldn't)

 

LOL In all honesty, Ive gotten into playing my sorc and sage more than anything else lately. Playing with the new buffs and healing has been fun.

 

Are you saying that PTs need to out dps jugs and sins? As long as the survivability/dps is on par with each other I am totally game if that is what the game metric says they need in order to be competitive.. Why would you say I wouldn't? Curious.

[foxmob]

Are you saying...,.

 

nope. I'm saying if, for example, PT dps were as far beyond any other AC's dps as jugg survivability is beyond any other AC, you wouldn't be a happy camper (unless you happen to like playing your PT). it's ridiculous though, right? to do that for one AC's dps? it's equally ridiculous to do it for one AC's survivability.

[NuSeC]

nope. I'm saying if, for example, PT dps were as far beyond any other AC's dps as jugg survivability is beyond any other AC, you wouldn't be a happy camper (unless you happen to like playing your PT). it's ridiculous though, right? to do that for one AC's dps? it's equally ridiculous to do it for one AC's survivability.

 

We will have to see what the metrics say.

 

I play everything and have no issues playing against a jugg or guard on nearly anything. Sometimes I win and sometimes they do. So to be honest, I dont see any problem. I have gotten annoyed with PTs/VGs and Sins/Shadows just as often as I am with Jugs/Guards while I am not my Sage/Sorc.

 

So saying that, let me reiterate... While I do not personally feel that there is an issue, that is not denying that there is one, I would be accepting of the change if it is indeed deemed necessary by metrics and not because of people qqing on a forum because they got butthurt.

[foxmob]

I play everything and have no issues playing against a jugg or guard on nearly anything. Sometimes I win and sometimes they do. So to be honest, I dont see any problem. I have gotten annoyed with PTs/VGs and Sins/Shadows just as often as I am with Jugs/Guards while I am not my Sage/Sorc..

 

a good player is a good player. he can make any AC/spec "annoying." But I find it extremely difficult to believe that you could run reg WZs and solo rated and notice that juggs are the only dps on the map that cannot be blown up by 2 or 3 players. reflect, enure, saber ward (these are all perfectly legit dcds that are comparable to what any other AC has) and then bam! ED. I'm not sure what metrics are going to show you...other than number of deaths in regs? and they still die...just noticeably slower than everybody else. and unlike the sin or sorc, the jugg doesn't sacrifice dps up time in order to take advantage of its survival tools.

[xX-Archangel-Xx]

a good player is a good player. He can make any ac/spec "annoying." but i find it extremely difficult to believe that you could run reg wzs and solo rated and notice that juggs are the only dps on the map that cannot be blown up by 2 or 3 players. Reflect, enure, saber ward (these are all perfectly legit dcds that are comparable to what any other ac has) and then bam! Ed. I'm not sure what metrics are going to show you...other than number of deaths in regs? And they still die...just noticeably slower than everybody else. and unlike the sin or sorc, the jugg doesn't sacrifice dps up time in order to take advantage of its survival tools.

 

this.

[Raansu]

1) You mentioned ravage root as a reason to not give a hard stun to jugs (which wasn't my argument anyways). My point was that ravage roots and don't stun. As in they can still do damage/pop CDs while ravage is going... It is not a hard stun. Thats all... nothing more and nothing less.

 

And unstoppable gives 20% damage reduction along with CC immunity. Your argument is weak.

 

2) You are the one claiming push is a 2 s stun (and here I thought it was a knockback). That's nice but the comment was about doing damage during a stun. You are not doing damage during that "stun" (as you call it) because you pushed them away and now have to charge back to them.

 

You leap to them during the recovery animation. They can't react right away. Its basically a short stun.

 

 

3) So stealth is a useless CD? What about kolto overload? Class specific abilities is what I was talking about.

 

I'll take juggs utilities over stealth. Kolta is nice but its nothing compared to having two abilities that can heal.

 

4) Its not heal to full... you proved it yourself. You were at 1/3 hp popped 2 cooldowns to get to 90% that is a 60% heal. So you get 1/3 more of a heal by combining it with EP. you are missing about 40% there champ... unless my math is wrong, and it's not.

Your first vid started at 26% then to 50 then to 87? its fuzzy... Missing about 40% health there bud before any claim of a h2f. So no, not h2f. Not like I had to watch it to know the outcome...

 

Your second is roughly the same. You didn't start from 0 or even close and you didn't end at 100. and you keep talking about this acting like nobody else has the ability of popping a medpack. Or medpack in combo with another cooldown.

 

OH MY *********** GOD.....You can't seriously be this ignorant......NO OTHER CLASS CAN POP A CD AND GO FROM 20% TO 90% WITH THAT COMBINATION. That is literally healing to full health. That is a second life. No other class can do that on their own, not one. And EP wearing off is negated by popping ED which gives them another life.

 

EP gives you 30% extra hp to your TOTAL HP. Medpac heals for 30% of your TOTAL HP. Medpac heals for MORE HP during EP. So your "medpac in combo with another cooldown" retort is a moot point because no one else can heal for that much with a CD+MP. They just can't.

[Jadescythe]

I like the idea of putting a minimum damage requirement to proc ED. It actually adds counter play to ED by allowing intelligent players to keep their stronger abilities, but continue doing damage without triggering the ED effects through basic attacks, resource builders, and DoTs.

 

If the minimum damage threshold scaled, then the user of ED would still get benefit from low level attacks at the start, so they get some health back, but wouldn't continue healing all the way to full off a long term DoT or something. If the user of ED has a healer, they will have an easier time topping them off since the enemy can't use any hard hitting abilities without triggering ED ticks and doing the healing themselves.

[Leafy_Bug]

I like the idea of putting a minimum damage requirement to proc ED. It actually adds counter play to ED by allowing intelligent players to keep their stronger abilities, but continue doing damage without triggering the ED effects through basic attacks, resource builders, and DoTs.

 

If the minimum damage threshold scaled, then the user of ED would still get benefit from low level attacks at the start, so they get some health back, but wouldn't continue healing all the way to full off a long term DoT or something. If the user of ED has a healer, they will have an easier time topping them off since the enemy can't use any hard hitting abilities without triggering ED ticks and doing the healing themselves.

 

 

 

That is how shroud and deflection work. You know when shroud is on, you don't use force and tech but white. When deflection is on, crit him hard with force and tech. ED heals on force and tech damage . Problem solved, inb4 'defeated puny jugg with 10500 shadow strike' .

Edited September 25, 2014 by Leafy_Bug

[Ld-Siris]

In reply to EP/medpack. Sorc self heal crit plus med pack also heals about the same. So do sins overcharged saber plus med pack. Edited September 25, 2014 by Ld-Siris

[Raansu]

In reply to EP/medpack. Sorc self heal crit plus med pack also heals about the same. So do sins overcharged saber plus med pack.

 

overcharge + medpac doesn't even come close.... Sorc self heal has to crit to benefit from it(and even then it doesnt come close to the 15k+ heals you get from EP). Neither of these actually add 30% total hp either like EP does. So when a vengeance jugg pops it with a medpack, its not just full hp, he also has 40k+ hp total instead of the 32k hp he normally has. Top that off with popping Ed after getting low? Juggernauts essentially has 3 lives.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Raansu

[Leafy_Bug]

overcharge + medpac doesn't even come close.... Sorc self heal has to crit to benefit from it(and even then it doesnt come close to the 15k+ heals you get from EP). Neither of these actually add 30% total hp either like EP does. So when a vengeance jugg pops it with a medpack, its not just full hp, he also has 40k+ hp total instead of the 32k hp he normally has. Top that off with popping Ed after getting low? Juggernauts essentially has 3 lives.

 

Hence why I said in another thread 'am I the only one around here who has to kill Juggernauts three times before they die?'

[maverickmatt]

So then its cool if I can get me 2% heal back as annihilation and the original undying rage from launch with the original CD? Cuz marauders are doing the same thing and everyone cried about that class....even though those CD's can't even compare to vengeance juggs right now. At least we required a healer to function like that. Juggs can just go LOL I H2F NOWZ!

 

 

I have always disagreed with the change to FD because I never thought we needed it.

 

With that said, it can be negated by burst and you have to use it at the right time for it to be useful at all. Even then it can still be bursted through.

UR was not quite the same. Burst was never going to kill someone with UR up, and if you had even the most slouchy healer (or anyone throwing offheals) you were never going to die. It needed to be changed, although maybe this route was the wrong one.

Also, there wasn't a very effective counterplay to a mara using UR. You didn't need your opponents to trigger it and stunning you didn't stop the CD from functioning. You still couldn't be killed. To negate it we needed to hunt down the healer and hope that was the only one you had while we assaulted them.

Edited September 25, 2014 by maverickmatt

[maverickmatt]

overcharge + medpac doesn't even come close.... Sorc self heal has to crit to benefit from it(and even then it doesnt come close to the 15k+ heals you get from EP). Neither of these actually add 30% total hp either like EP does. So when a vengeance jugg pops it with a medpack, its not just full hp, he also has 40k+ hp total instead of the 32k hp he normally has. Top that off with popping Ed after getting low? Juggernauts essentially has 3 lives.

 

First, EP doesn't heal you at all. It doesn't count in the heal column and all that health disappears. It's a temporary HP boost that will land you in a bad spot if you use it being stupid. For instance, if you have 20k remaining out of 32k (~64%) and you use EP, your health may be 41k but you will still only have ~64% of that HP (so roughly 26k) . If you take no more damage, when EP expires you will revert back to 20k. Thus.. no heal. It just scales your HP up 30%, and when it's done it scales it back down. It essentially functions as a two-way DR cooldown.

 

If you use EP + medpac on a 32k Guardian, thats ~19k healh restored (because medpac is a 30% heal.. higher HP = bigger heal). That is the only way EP aids in your healling. With ED, you still need someone attacking you to trigger it or you need some DoT spec catching you in his tabdot heroics. Not to mention you do need some of those stacks to crit to get a second life.

 

So let's assume that ED will heal you for 70% (which is accurate) of 32k. That's 22k. If EP+medpac heals you for ~19k that's still only 41k extra health. 32 + 41 = 63. Effectively a Jugg has 63k health if the CDs are used properly, and before using any DR cooldowns.

63k health is not 3 lives. Is it high? Very, but it's not as bad as you make it seem.

Edited September 25, 2014 by maverickmatt

[Raansu]

First, EP doesn't heal you at all. It doesn't count in the heal column and all that health disappears. It's a temporary HP boost that will land you in a bad spot if you use it being stupid. For instance, if you have 20k remaining out of 32k (~64%) and you use EP, your health may be 41k but you will still only have ~64% of that HP (so roughly 26k) . If you take no more damage, when EP expires you will revert back to 20k. Thus.. no heal. It just scales your HP up 30%, and when it's done it scales it back down. It essentially functions as a two-way DR cooldown.

 

If you use EP + medpac on a 32k Guardian, thats ~19k healh restored (because medpac is a 30% heal.. higher HP = bigger heal). That is the only way EP aids in your healling. With ED, you still need someone attacking you to trigger it or you need some DoT spec catching you in his tabdot heroics. Not to mention you do need some of those stacks to crit to get a second life.

 

So let's assume that ED will heal you for 70% (which is accurate) of 32k. That's 22k. If EP+medpac heals you for ~19k that's still only 41k extra health. 32 + 41 = 63. Effectively a Jugg has 63k health if the CDs are used properly, and before using any DR cooldowns.

63k health is not 3 lives. Is it high? Very, but it's not as bad as you make it seem.

 

When you have to burn a juggs HP down 3 times....its 3 lives no matter how you put it. I can go into a solo arena knowing I'll always be the last one standing because no other class can do that.

[maverickmatt]

When you have to burn a juggs HP down 3 times....its 3 lives no matter how you put it. I can go into a solo arena knowing I'll always be the last one standing because no other class can do that.

 

Hyperbole is not helping your cause.

 

Guardians do not have 3 lives. I just laid out the math. Did you not understand it? 63k is not 3x 32k. It's not even 2x

Edited September 25, 2014 by maverickmatt