Leafy_Bug Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 Am I the only one around here who has to kill a jugg 3 times before he dies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xX-Archangel-Xx Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 (edited) Am I the only one around here who has to kill a jugg 3 times before he dies? no mate, i must do it all the times, in regular wz they are fine because u have 400000 meters to run away from them, but in arena ? ED and if he has dot on him is an " h2f", endure pain and is " more than h2f" and medpack for at least 3 lives, and in ranked is not possible to have 3 lives when all other classes have only one of it. So nerf ED or remove arenas Edited September 24, 2014 by xX-Archangel-Xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuSeC Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 Well, first off only deception/concealment can truly do that. I tried this on madness and it will rarely work since you will be put into combat right away. Anyway. When a sin stealths out to heal he puts himself out of the match leaving his team to 3v4. Also, he can still be interrupted by any ranged/leaper with ease-just put him back in combat with any attack. Also in order to effectively do that you usually need a PW down in an area where people can't see you, a combat stealth and a shroud. You need to use all your defense abilities at once in order to make it work (and you need to put yourself out of combat for 15 seconds at least-not counting the time to get away and get back in). Juggs just press one button and continue fighting. They can do it while stunned/mezzed as well. Also the sap heal situation you are talking about is so rare, it is not worth mentioning. You must literally be the last 2 standing, he has to have his combat stealth (possibly shroud) and you can't have a breaker. The amount of times this happened is so few, it is not worth mentioning. LOL! It is PVP so everything is situational and that is the point. The ability(s) is/are there and can be used. And popping a cleanse/force shroud... whatever before vanish takes care of the dots and allows a mezz. Not to mention that stealth classes can choose their fights... something else Jugs/Guardians cant really do. No such thing as opening from stealth on someone nor is there such a thing as hanging around a node until all but a single defender remains... because the other team can't see you. Each class has its strong-suits (even the skill trees of the different classes have their own strong-suits), that is the very essence of having different classes/skill trees to start with. It is situational, and having the best class is also situational as the best class strictly depends on what the class is being used for. Jugs/guardians are made to leap in with everyone watching and eat all the stuns, roots, slows, knock-backs and now electronet. They NEED to be able to survive just to get any damage done or else they would be dead within seconds of leaping in and spend the majority of the matches in respawn. There is no vanish from combat when you are a Jug/Guard class and you engage, someone is going to die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaOosaki Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 NuSec nailed it, a class called Guardian/Juggernaut isn't supposed to be squishy. Plus when you know the class and build, any good player can kill us with some skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raansu Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 LOL! It is PVP so everything is situational and that is the point. The ability(s) is/are there and can be used. And popping a cleanse/force shroud... whatever before vanish takes care of the dots and allows a mezz. Not to mention that stealth classes can choose their fights... something else Jugs/Guardians cant really do. No such thing as opening from stealth on someone nor is there such a thing as hanging around a node until all but a single defender remains... because the other team can't see you. Each class has its strong-suits (even the skill trees of the different classes have their own strong-suits), that is the very essence of having different classes/skill trees to start with. It is situational, and having the best class is also situational as the best class strictly depends on what the class is being used for. Jugs/guardians are made to leap in with everyone watching and eat all the stuns, roots, slows, knock-backs and now electronet. They NEED to be able to survive just to get any damage done or else they would be dead within seconds of leaping in and spend the majority of the matches in respawn. There is no vanish from combat when you are a Jug/Guard class and you engage, someone is going to die. So then its cool if I can get me 2% heal back as annihilation and the original undying rage from launch with the original CD? Cuz marauders are doing the same thing and everyone cried about that class....even though those CD's can't even compare to vengeance juggs right now. At least we required a healer to function like that. Juggs can just go LOL I H2F NOWZ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbafatter Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 So then its cool if I can get me 2% heal back as annihilation and the original undying rage from launch with the original CD? Cuz marauders are doing the same thing and everyone cried about that class....even though those CD's can't even compare to vengeance juggs right now. At least we required a healer to function like that. Juggs can just go LOL I H2F NOWZ! Don't whine, just l2p ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuiveringPotato Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 (edited) Even if the class can tank, the DPS SPECS of it should definitely not be able to have essentially 3 lives, it's retarded. Yes, in a 1v1, if your class has a mezz and isn't a dot spec (not including lethality operative with toxic regulators, pure troll match up against veng, if you lose as that you're bad), ED can be (mostly) avoided, but the game is not (and should not be imo) balanced for 1v1's. In a WZ or in ranked, you're going to get hit by some sort of damage while ED is up, and even 4-5 ticks of it are more than enough to give you a stupid advantage. The entire time I leveled my new jugg after rerolling my old one, I just laughed to myself at how stupid the class was, my survivability was just silly. Edited September 24, 2014 by QuiveringPotato Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raansu Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 Don't whine, just l2p ... I know how to play perfectly fine thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadescythe Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 Don't whine, just l2p ... Complains about premades, tells people to L2P. Literally, EPIC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raansu Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 Complains about premades, tells people to L2P. Literally, EPIC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuSeC Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 Even if the class can tank, the DPS SPECS of it should definitely not be able to have essentially 3 lives, it's retarded. LMAO oh this is rich... I have played a jug from Pre-launch. What are these three lives you speak of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raansu Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 LMAO oh this is rich... I have played a jug from Pre-launch. What are these three lives you speak of? initial hp endure pain + med pack = full hp enraged defense = full hp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savej Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 ... you're going to get hit by some sort of damage while ED is up, and even 4-5 ticks of it are more than enough to give you a stupid advantage... Yes 4-5 hits from a dec sin (or smasher or pt or any number of specs) and the jugg won't even see his health bar go up, he'll just die. Again, ED is good and game changing for juggs that were at the bottom of the totem pole - but there's more than one way to counter it and it's no guarantee of anything. One of the biggest complaints about maras back when bashing them was in style was that there was no way to burst through gbtf it or counter it (short of using stuns), it was just god-mode. Well... ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuiveringPotato Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 Yes 4-5 hits from a dec sin (or smasher or pt or any number of specs) and the jugg won't even see his health bar go up, he'll just die. Again, ED is good and game changing for juggs that were at the bottom of the totem pole - but there's more than one way to counter it and it's no guarantee of anything. One of the biggest complaints about maras back when bashing them was in style was that there was no way to burst through gbtf it or counter it (short of using stuns), it was just god-mode. Well... ? You can't even really compare them, 4s of damage immunity while still being susceptible to CC <<<<<<<< lol h2f hit me moar usable while stunned. I've gotten 4-5k crit ticks of ED on my jugg (per tick), and I'm not even fully geared on him yet, that's rather stupid. And I've had 3 juggs (1 is a guardian) and 2 maras to 55, so believe me, I know the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuSeC Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 So then its cool if I can get me 2% heal back as annihilation and the original undying rage from launch with the original CD? Cuz marauders are doing the same thing and everyone cried about that class....even though those CD's can't even compare to vengeance juggs right now. At least we required a healer to function like that. Juggs can just go LOL I H2F NOWZ! Look, I know that maras/sents need a buff... I have one... along with every other AC. I have said for a long time that maras/sents should be sporting heavy armor like jugs and guards. They do need more survivability for sure. You will get no arguments from me about maras/sents survivability issues. HOWEVER, maras can stealth out of combat, that is something Jugs/Guards can not do. So matching cooldown vs cooldown.. it would be really hard for me to choose one CD over the other. The ability to vanish and force your opponent to drop target in the middle of a fight is epically huge. I think to fix the mara survivability problems and bring them on par three or four things need to happen. 1) take away Cop (cloak of pain) 2) make heavy armor available to maras and sents 3) immunity on charge in one of the skill trees like jugs/guards. 4) vanish should give a small heal.. like 5-10% natively Or some variant thereof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuSeC Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 initial hp endure pain + med pack = full hp enraged defense = full hp. Really? EP and a medpac? While it can give you most of your HP it is not h2f extra life.. Also, it is burning 2 cooldowns at the same time to get there. AND every class has a medpack. So in that sense... put 2 big cooldows together and nearly any class gets the same if not better deal. This is like saying... "ZOMG let me get on my PT and h2f with medpac after healing to 35% with Kolto Overload." Also, if the hits are harder than the heals it will not matter anyways. If you are focused with just ED and no SW or something else to help you are dead in 2 seconds anyways. This is apples and oranges... different classes have some different abilities to make them unique. Its not even known for its DPS output. You are having an issue because the survivability of a tank/dps class is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raansu Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 (edited) Really? EP and a medpac? While it can give you most of your HP it is not h2f extra life.. Also, it is burning 2 cooldowns at the same time to get there. AND every class has a medpack. So in that sense... put 2 big cooldows together and nearly any class gets the same if not better deal. This is like saying... "ZOMG let me get on my PT and h2f with medpac after healing to 35% with Kolto Overload." Also, if the hits are harder than the heals it will not matter anyways. If you are focused with just ED and no SW or something else to help you are dead in 2 seconds anyways. This is apples and oranges... different classes have some different abilities to make them unique. Its not even known for its DPS output. You are having an issue because the survivability of a tank/dps class is good. My head hurts after reading that.....Like I don't even know how to respond to this....Its so much ignorance. Edited September 25, 2014 by Raansu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SolitaryEye Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 At the end of last season out of the top 500 solo queue payer Juggs/Guardians made up ~20% of those players compared to 7.5% at the end of season 1. So unless everyone that plays that class all the sudden got really good there might be a slight imbalance. OP classes always think they're not OP. They use phrases like "cry me a river" and "reroll noob" and "l2p" and that's fine. They're not getting any better. They're getting worse. You think a Vigilance/Vengeance player has to think about their spec at all? Hell no they don't. You think a V/V player is learning a damn thing beyond "when the red bar goes down, pop a DCD, become an immortal tank for 5-10 seconds." Nope. Just pressing the same buttons in every fight. Anybody who rolled the class for V/V sucks, and anybody from the old Jug days is just living the golden life right now. And they're going to fight tooth and nail to keep the throne. Not to mention, BW isn't even trying to hear that BS about them being tanks and DPS at the same time. Apparently, that's what the game is meant to be. We're all playing wrong. The classes without shield generators are PvE classes, obviously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuSeC Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 My head hurts after reading that.....Like I don't even know how to respond to this....Its so much ignorance. Really? Ignorance? Oh please do tell god of all that is knowledge. Arrogance much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savej Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 (edited) You can't even really compare them, 4s of damage immunity while still being susceptible to CC <<<<<<<< lol h2f hit me moar usable while stunned. I've gotten 4-5k crit ticks of ED on my jugg (per tick), and I'm not even fully geared on him yet, that's rather stupid. And I've had 3 juggs (1 is a guardian) and 2 maras to 55, so believe me, I know the difference. The arguments you're using are exactly the same sorts that were being used against gbtf 8 mos ago. The abilitiess are comparable insofar as the mara's near immunity can suck up far more damage under focus fire where the jugg can still be killed 1, 2, 3 seconds after hitting their omg-this-is-so-op'd button (and it happens more often than you getting 4-5 heal crits in a row - hey, master strike can crit on every tick: better get the nerf police on that, too - 18k+ is way too much dmg from one button push). The main argument I'm hearing isn't that it isn't counterable or that it's completely op'd or that juggs are overperforming with it in solo ranked (they aren't in season #3 according to the leaderboards) or group ranked or regular wzs or duels, just that it is a good, useful ability that isn't 100% counterable in every situation and juggs shouldn't have one of those because ppl liked it when they were the first to get dropped in 4dps-v-4dps the way the nerfed maras are now. Edited September 25, 2014 by Savej Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolixe Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 Yes 4-5 hits from a dec sin (or smasher or pt or any number of specs) and the jugg won't even see his health bar go up, he'll just die. Again, ED is good and game changing for juggs that were at the bottom of the totem pole - but there's more than one way to counter it and it's no guarantee of anything. One of the biggest complaints about maras back when bashing them was in style was that there was no way to burst through gbtf it or counter it (short of using stuns), it was just god-mode. Well... ? You are not seriously argueing that jugg survivability isn't stupid, are you? I can totally charge into ANY target of my liking and get out of situations other non-stealth classes can only dream of. Are you forgetting that guardian leap is a means of defense as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxmob Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 You are having an issue because the survivability of a tank/dps class is good. 3 tank ACs with dps specs. one has survivability that greatly surpasses the others while continuing to deal dmg. psst: it's the jugg ppl liked it when they were the first to get dropped in 4dps-v-4dps the way the nerfed maras are now. huh? refresh my memory. what season were juggs the first target based on class, all things being equal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhatMcMuffins Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 lol at people whining about mara survivability and as far as juggs go, their survivability is only a problem in yolos and 1v1s, the latter not mattering at all and the former not mattering to most Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuSeC Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 OP classes always think they're not OP. They use phrases like "cry me a river" and "reroll noob" and "l2p" and that's fine. They're not getting any better. They're getting worse. You think a Vigilance/Vengeance player has to think about their spec at all? Hell no they don't. You think a V/V player is learning a damn thing beyond "when the red bar goes down, pop a DCD, become an immortal tank for 5-10 seconds." Nope. Just pressing the same buttons in every fight. Anybody who rolled the class for V/V sucks, and anybody from the old Jug days is just living the golden life right now. And they're going to fight tooth and nail to keep the throne. Not to mention, BW isn't even trying to hear that BS about them being tanks and DPS at the same time. Apparently, that's what the game is meant to be. We're all playing wrong. The classes without shield generators are PvE classes, obviously. "Just pressing the same buttons in every fight" LOL! You're delusional! HAHAHA! How many buttons would that be? And are you saying that having a rotation and muscle memory is bad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuiveringPotato Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 (edited) lol at people whining about mara survivability and as far as juggs go, their survivability is only a problem in yolos and 1v1s, the latter not mattering at all and the former not mattering to most It's actually fine in 1v1's imo, it's anything involving more than one person that seems gimmicky, in 1v1's you can at least mezz them and kite around or whatever to not let them get healed, but in a group fight, SOMETHING's going to hit them, hell, the animation is barely distinguishable from saber ward (unless you're just completely concentrating on the jugg) if they have it up, and unless you're just staring intently at their buff bar the entire fight, the jugg is gonna get healed. Edited September 25, 2014 by QuiveringPotato Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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