On the Definition of Epic.

[Dras_Keto]

on another note, i don't understand at all this hate some people have for story in game, if you don't want story in your game theres a whole slew of games from the 80's & 90's that have no story at all; Pac-Man, Dig-Dug, Asteroids, Centipede, Super Mario Brothers, the list goes on... but, this game was promoted on the fact that it was story driven, so i fail to see the ire directed at it having a story element to it...

 

I dont think you understand the point here. The problem isnt "OMG, stop putting more stuff I have to spacebar through before I can get back to rolling my face across a keyboard." The problem is the "rolling my face across a keyboard," part.

 

Bioware keeps throwing tactical flashpoints at us and expects us to be happy about it. KDY. Tython/Korriban. Manaan. And now Lehon (or at least I think its Lehon, its been a while since I played Kotor).

 

EVERY SINGLE PVE UPDATE since Dread Fortress/Palace were released has been a completely useless tactical flashpoint. Im not including the nightmare modes of either op in this because frankly, it shouldnt have taken them 9 months to get them out (9 months of work and cleared 2 hours after the server comes back up? Something is wrong there).

 

We now have more tactical flashpoints that we have hardmode flashpoints. And only two of those HMFPs are new. The other 4 are just recycled.

 

This is a game that mechanically is based on progression. You level up, you get increasingly better gear, you fight increasingly harder things. And they are just bloating the absolute lowest level, catering to the lowest possible denominator.

Edited September 10, 2014 by Dras_Keto

[Kulyok]

If you want to go play a game for the story.... you play a single player RPG. Mass Effect, Deus Ex, something of that nature. What passes for a story in an mmo is merely a backdrop for the gameplay.

 

No. SWTOR's main strength is the class stories. Have you seen dozens and dozens of "more class stories, please!" threads? That's why the casual players like me come in the first place. Some stay for the raiding, yeah. But if the story was boring, they'd never even make it to level 50, let alone 55.

 

If they wanted to advance a story line through a series of flashpoints, they should have done something like Kaon and LI. Make a story version for those "less capable" and put in a hardmode version that might actually take some effort.

 

Haha. I've been playing since November, I got Living Legend a few months ago, I NEVER saw Kaon and LI yet. Know why? Yep. They're not tacticals, and there's no GF for the story mode, and nobody plays HM 50 anymore - even with the conquest, there's hours and hours of waiting for a pop for an average dps. Tactical? Ha. Five minutes, tops.

[Dras_Keto]

Haha. I've been playing since November, I got Living Legend a few months ago, I NEVER saw Kaon and LI yet. Know why? Yep. They're not tacticals, and there's no GF for the story mode, and nobody plays HM 50 anymore - even with the conquest, there's hours and hours of waiting for a pop for an average dps. Tactical? Ha. Five minutes, tops.

 

So, youre saying that since the population of people queuing up for Kaon and LI has gone down because they are now outdated, that this somehow proves that tactical flashpoints are the way to go? Do you realise how little sense that makes?

 

The reason Kaon and LI are not played much has absolutely no thing whatsoever to do with the fact that they are "normal" or "real" flashpoints as opposed to the euphemistically named 'tacticals.' Its because they are level 50 content and we are all 55. Back when they were relevant, groups for Kaon and LI popped VERY frequently. And, even better, there was a POINT to doing thing. And yes, those were basically 4 man operations. They were difficult, but because they had an element of challenge they were fun.

 

Next time think before you type something..

Edited September 10, 2014 by Dras_Keto

[TACeMossie]

on another note, i don't understand at all this hate some people have for story in game, if you don't want story in your game theres a whole slew of games from the 80's & 90's that have no story at all; Pac-Man, Dig-Dug, Asteroids, Centipede, Super Mario Brothers, the list goes on... but, this game was promoted on the fact that it was story driven, so i fail to see the ire directed at it having a story element to it...

 

Super Mario Bros actually has a story

 

"Bowser and the Koopa Kingdom have invaded the mushroom kingdom and turned its residents into bricks, plants and other useless inanimate objects. Princess Peach is the only one who can revert Bowser's magic, but has been kidnapped by Bowser. Its up to you, Mario, to rescue Princess Peach from his evil clutches and return the land to normal

 

P.S. Killing the mushroom kingdom's residents that were turned into blocks earns bonus points"

[Kulyok]

Next time think before you type something..

 

Personal attacks usually get you nowhere.

 

How many people queue for Colicoid War Game or Red Reaper? These are levelling flashpoints, and quite actual for level 40-ish characters, but I don't think I see pops very often, if at all. It's not about the level, it's about

- wait for the trinity;

- time/reward proportions - i.e. too many wipes for a random party for very little gain, especially the first Red Reaper area.

 

That's the problem with classic higher-level flashpoints. My friend played on multiple characters and she never could get a pop for her Battle of Ilum/False Emperor for Ilum storyline. Tacticals are the salvation for casual DPS players who want the story.

 

Do we need hard versions? Yes, sure, and 3.0 would have them. But we also need easy mode, and tacticals are very good for that.

[Halinalle]

Difficult and MMO...

Nobody has ever managed to do it.

[Nydus]

I'm not sure why they are using the word tactical? Anyone have any idea?

 

The entire game is tactical.

 

- Arcada

[Khevar]

Haha. I've been playing since November, I got Living Legend a few months ago, I NEVER saw Kaon and LI yet. Know why? Yep. They're not tacticals, and there's no GF for the story mode, and nobody plays HM 50 anymore - even with the conquest, there's hours and hours of waiting for a pop for an average dps. Tactical? Ha. Five minutes, tops.

Which server are you on? I get quick pops on my dps for both HM 50 and HM 55 ever since conquest started.

[Dras_Keto]

Personal attacks usually get you nowhere.

 

That wasnt a personal attack, it was some helpful advice that you completely ignored.

 

Your argument has ZERO relevance to this thread. No one cares that leveling flashpoints, especially the ones right near the tail end of the leveling process have infrequent pops. Theres almost nothing that bioware can do about that short of completely imbalancing the system.

 

So, this time, in addition to the cautionary plea for you to think before you type, Id also invite you to read the thread as its now quite clear you havent done that either.

Edited September 10, 2014 by Dras_Keto

[Elly_Dawn]

Super Mario Bros actually has a story

 

"Bowser and the Koopa Kingdom have invaded the mushroom kingdom and turned its residents into bricks, plants and other useless inanimate objects. Princess Peach is the only one who can revert Bowser's magic, but has been kidnapped by Bowser. Its up to you, Mario, to rescue Princess Peach from his evil clutches and return the land to normal

 

P.S. Killing the mushroom kingdom's residents that were turned into blocks earns bonus points"

 

indeed that is true, but the only place you'll find the story is in the manual, that goes for the majority of NES games... i believe the most of those people that dislike story in game, (i've heard excuse like "if i wanna read i'll read a book", or "if i wanted to watch cut-scenes i'd watch a movie") never read the manual and therefore don't know of the story because it's not explicitly told in the game play via cut-scenes, ergo no story in the game itself to "interfere with their gameplay"...

it always blew my mind when my ex would ask questions about the story in a game and i'd be all "well didn't you pay attention to the cut-scenes?" and she'd say "no, i skipped them so i can get back to kicking ***" then i'd reply "then why are you asking what's going on?"....

 

and here, to stay on topic, i will reiterate: the reason we have Tactical Flashpoints now is because people are too scared to roll a Tank or Healer, and newbies that join are instantly told to run the FOTM DPS by the community at large, it has nothing to do with overall population of the game and everything to do with trinity ratios... the whole situation is like Ouroboros...

Edited September 10, 2014 by Elly_Dawn

[flyersfan]

TL;DR: Calling something easier than most H4s "epic" is lame.

 

The word "epic" refers to an elongated poem that tells the legend of a hero, so the use of the word is actually spot on since the emphasis of this Flashpoint is the story.

[Ottoattack]

There is two sides to this, story and game play.

 

Story wise, if we consider IA or SW stories to be the best in SWTOR. On scale on 1-10, 10 being perfect, they will get around 9 or so. Forged alliances is 4-5 tops. The story does not make much sense and does not fits well. Lana and Theron are kinda flat and boring. Only the wookie and his droid were interesting. Also, I was hoping 3.0 will be the long forgotten imps vs reps war. We have been fighting distractions since ever. First Malgus, then the Hutts (seriously Hutts...) then Dread guards. And now, someone who supposedly died 300 years before the time line of this game, which it seems 3.0 is going to be all about. This is lame at best.

 

Now game play wise we get 4 FPs with difficulty rating of 128 (assuming a trinity group). I mean 140 rating mods are given available at lvl 50 for plantery comms. So in terms of difficulty it is non-existent. What purpose does it sever for gearing I haven't figured that out yet. Who uses elite comms anyway?! Also, while earlier FPs teach people to properly perform there roles, where tactical teach them to jump everything they see without a marginal lvl of thinking. I will add, that with the exception of Mannan, they are also poorly developed in terms of mobs and bosses.

 

TBH, forges alliance as story was mediocre. The "tactical" concept is terrible. And the direction the story heading does not seem interesting. All I wanted is 3.0 to have some good new FPs and 1-2 well developed WZs (unlike HG and QB). I guess neither is happening.

[LanceCorporalDan]

You left out the word tactical.

 

You mean the concluding flashpoint in string of tactical flashpoints is also a tactical flashpoint!?

 

Shocking.

[Dras_Keto]

You mean the concluding flashpoint in string of tactical flashpoints is also a tactical flashpoint!?

 

Shocking.

 

Id make some remark about how whats really shocking is how often people willfully misunderstand a perfectly clear point because it isnt convenient to what they want to say but, this is the internet and that happens all the time.

[LordArtemis]

I would expect the overall reaction from the playerbase to be the same as with the prior tacticals....which if the in game chat is any indicator (not scientific by any stretch) seems to be a hit.

 

From personal experience I know the tacticals seem to pop quicker than regular flashpoints, but that could be a symptom of the fact that there is a bolster for lower levels in place, so lower level players can que. More players, quicker pops.

 

Haven't heard too many complaints about tacticals in game.

[LanceCorporalDan]

Id make some remark about how whats really shocking is how often people willfully misunderstand a perfectly clear point because it isnt convenient to what they want to say but, this is the internet and that happens all the time.

 

You say they left out the word "Tactical" I say it comes as no surprise to be tactical.

 

But go on. As you say... this is the internet.

Edited September 10, 2014 by LanceCorporalDan

[Ottoattack]

I would expect the overall reaction from the playerbase to be the same as with the prior tacticals....which if the in game chat is any indicator (not scientific by any stretch) seems to be a hit.

 

From personal experience I know the tacticals seem to pop quicker than regular flashpoints, but that could be a symptom of the fact that there is a bolster for lower levels in place, so lower level players can que. More players, quicker pops.

 

Haven't heard too many complaints about tacticals in game.

 

I have not seen one player commend tactical once. Not on the forums, in the game chat or in my guild. I dunno what server you play on, but if it is PvP or PvE, surely no one likes it. Of course it will pop faster, it does not require a role. But why play them with no challenge or reward?

Edited September 10, 2014 by Ottoattack

[JattaGin]

I thought it was quite an epic story and seeing Rakata Prime in all its beauty felt quite epic, too.

 

My opinion is just as valuable as anyone else's here.

 

That said, I declare this finale epic.

[Dras_Keto]

You say they left out the word "Tactical" I say it comes as no surprise to be tactical.

 

But go on. As you say... this is the internet.

 

.. Ok, maybe you actually, legitimately dont get it. I guess that's also possible.

 

No one is surprised it was a tactical.

 

You can go try to troll some other thread now.

[LanceCorporalDan]

.. Ok, maybe you actually, legitimately dont get it. I guess that's also possible.

 

No one is surprised it was a tactical.

 

You can go try to troll some other thread now.

 

Then the purpose to creating a thread that merely states they left out the word tactical?

 

To troll indeed.

Edited September 11, 2014 by LanceCorporalDan

[Dras_Keto]

To voice displeasure over the release of yet another tactical. All it has been for most of the past year is tactical, tactical, tactical.

 

And then another tactical.

 

There isnt anything trollish about that at all.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Dras_Keto

[Halinalle]

Why it's so difficult to understand that they don't have to focus on Hardcore all the time?

 

Why it's so important to get Nightmare mode Flashpoints? Why it's so important to get content that only handful (<1%) of players can complete?

[Khevar]

Why it's so difficult to understand that they don't have to focus on Hardcore all the time?

Methinks you're trolling again.

 

Either that or you actually do think the devs focus on Hardcore "all the time".

 

In which case you should look up what that phrase means.

[arunav]

Why it's so difficult to understand that they don't have to focus on Hardcore all the time?

 

Why it's so important to get Nightmare mode Flashpoints? Why it's so important to get content that only handful (<1%) of players can complete?

 

HM FPs have been a basic part of the PVE endgame since launch, and still are.

 

I, like many others, suspect there are HM versions of these tactical FPs coming with 3.0. Some of the achievements for them even currently have the Story Mode label, which would serve no purpose if there weren't also a Hard Mode arriving later.

 

Still, as someone who really favors doing FPs, and with the general lack of PVE content in 2014, I wish the HMs (or even NiM modes of old FPs) had been released already. Tactical FPs are just boring at 55, no matter if you are a tank, dps, or healer. I ran the Tython/Korriban ones to get the faction mounts, but only did Manaan for the story, as well as the new one. I think I've run Kuat at 55 once. Leveling heroics are often more challenging, as group content.

 

And for all the complaints of how long a HM FP queue takes, you must either play at odd hours, or be on a bad server for PVE content. I play one HM FP most weeknights, and always get into it within doing part or all of one daily area, usually Ilum or the Black Hole, and only on DPS characters. When I used to play as a tank, the pop was almost always instant. I've never played a healer in SWTOR, but I assume that is pretty fast too.

 

Also: HM FPs aren't hard, like Operations can be. They require only the most basic of gear (blue 148s) and augments, as long as the player knows their class/role. If they don't, HM FPs force players to learn the basics of said class/role, and it isn't a long process.

 

The times I have queued for tactical FPs outside of when they are new, I often run into under-geared players who have almosdt no idea how to actually play their class/role, or willfully don't want to participate in a group properly.

 

Good example: in an attempt to get the Tython decoration, I ran into a DPS who had level 35 relics, and about 16k HPs, as a 55 sentinel. I have never been a gear snob, but you can get most of a set of 156 gear on Oricon for FREE, and the rest on the GTN for very little credits now (except relics, where a few regular WZ comms can be traded for great ones for all but NiM Ops). When someone politely pointed this out to said player, he pulled a mob while we were waiting on the 4th member of the party to join us and died. He continued to die on every boss, and the group would have been better served by any of our companions.

 

I never ran into players that were that bad consistently when HM FPs were the norm at release, or now when running the daily.

 

My partial solution? At least make tanking gear come with almost-optimized stats. They are in the greatest demand, and seem to have the worst itemization on stock gear drops and even token drops. If the gear were better/quicker to acquire, at least it would be easier for folks to switch to a tank stance and queue when they felt like it, lessening wait times for everyone else.

 

As it stands, it takes longer to gear a tank to properly do HM FPs and SM Ops (what most players do for endgame PVE), and the process can be awful unless you are running with a guild. Often times, this means tanks don't end up in the random HM FP pool that otherwise would be there.

Edited September 11, 2014 by arunav

[Jaxtes]

Story was predictable so not so epic would have been more surprised if Malgus or Marr had been the leader of Revanites.

It could have been interesting if the bosses had more mechanics to them. Still more fun than burning down the droid boss from Czerka Labs HM.