The Scam/Not a Scam debate storyline

[LordArtemis]

Well, the only thing that might be a concern is that BW would have to make a second type of ignore list which increases data traffic again for each character and so my expectation is that other things have priority over this.

 

Fair enough on the second point, this is likely a minor QoL request.

 

What about if they extended the current ignore list to the GTN as well? After all, it was extended to the group finder que in addition to chat.

 

That is, of course, assuming that would even be possible. The coding might stand in the way.

Edited November 8, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Max_Killjoy]

I think it's a little strange that every time someone suggests a change that would make it harder for certain scumbags to pull off their nonsense, there are responses that say "Just be careful, if you get scammed / griefed / whatever, it's your fault."

 

IRL, at least, people can take care to avoid scams, and yet there are laws, a lot of laws, against fraud and dishonest business practices and false efficacy claims and so on...

 

I wonder how many of the people who say "HAHA, you got scammed, your fault" in MMOs would support lifting all the IRL fraud laws and letting scumbags go do town.

 

Just something to think about.

[Tsillah]

Fair enough on the second point, this is likely a minor QoL request.

 

What about if they extended the current ignore list to the GTN as well? After all, it was extended to the group finder que in addition to chat.

 

That is, of course, assuming that would even be possible. The coding might stand in the way.

 

Well, that might work more easily, but the problem is that someone who is being an idiot in a FP might still be a fair trader. So I think a lot of people might not want this to be added to the existing ignore list function.

[Foambreaker]

I think it's a little strange that every time someone suggests a change that would make it harder for certain scumbags to pull off their nonsense, there are responses that say "Just be careful, if you get scammed / griefed / whatever, it's your fault."

 

IRL, at least, people can take care to avoid scams, and yet there are laws, a lot of laws, against fraud and dishonest business practices and false efficacy claims and so on...

 

I wonder how many of the people who say "HAHA, you got scammed, your fault" in MMOs would support lifting all the IRL fraud laws and letting scumbags go do town.

 

Just something to think about.

 

High prices is not a scam, not illegal or even uncommon, this game probably did OP a favor, taught him a lesson.

[Tsillah]

High prices is not a scam, not illegal or even uncommon, this game probably did OP a favor, taught him a lesson.

 

Adding materials that normally cost 3k at a price just under 3 million in the hopes that people are too tired or unattentive for any reason is a scam.

 

To use the Merriam Webster definition of scam:

a fraudulent or deceptive act or operation

 

Twist it as you like it is a deceptive act.

 

Now I agree that there are things you can do and I certainly make sure I don't fall for this sort of thing but it still is a scam to post sales like this.

[Turajin]

IRL, at least, people can take care to avoid scams, and yet there are laws, a lot of laws, against fraud and dishonest business practices and false efficacy claims and so on...

 

I wonder how many of the people who say "HAHA, you got scammed, your fault" in MMOs would support lifting all the IRL fraud laws and letting scumbags go do town.

Problem is: you speak about two totally different things.

 

What happenes on GTN is neither a scam, nor a fraud or any other kind of dishonest buisnes or false efficacy claims...

It's a simple "Pay this and you get that"-thing. There is no hidden catch, no fine print, no false claims about you get or any other stuff that somehow would represent any kind of illegal behavior. The price is higher, sure, propably way over the top... but it's written clearly and understandable on the screen. No numbers are hidden (unless your screen is dirty, but that is also not the sellers fault), they are neither less accurate, smaller or slimmer that the numers on all the other price tags on the GTN. You get exactly what was offered (and not just a fraction of it, a broken version of it or just an empty casing). So where is the fraud/scam?

 

If it says, in example, 1,999,999 credits for Item X, and I misreads it for 1,999.99 credits... well, then it's completelymy fault. Noone forces me to buy it, noone pushes me to read and decide in a rush, noone denies me the time to read it carefully and think it over. The only persons to blame is me, myself and I.

 

So, In any case where someone spent more creds on a GTN Item then they intended, there never had been, and never will be any case of scam, fraud or something else. It is, always has been and always will be a matter of "to dumb to read". A scam/fraud/illegal behaviour would include either someone lying about the product, it's quality and/or quantity, it's capabilities, it's rareness or stuff like that - nothing of theese is possible at the GTN. Or it would include adding fine print, hidden paragraphs in the contract, or forcing someone to make the deal - which is also impossible on the GTN. So, again the question: where is the fraud/scam?

 

And no, I don't sell overpriced Items on the GTN. In fact, in the few cases where I do sell stuff, I look at whatever is the lowest price at the moment (sorting and reading carefully) and post it at a similar (or slightly lower) price.

[Tachenko_Yuri]

You can't ban sellers and their listing from appearing, but you CAN actually pay attention to what you buying and the price for that item.

 

Pay attention? Wut iz dis, skool? dude we iz in mmo. We ain't got no time fo'dat!

[LordArtemis]

Well, the person that purchases the high priced item is at fault to be frank. So is the person that lists the high priced item, but to a lesser degree.

 

It is an unfair practice, sure. But the game currently allows it, so it is an allowed practice.

 

I am also not sure that the folks that say "it is your fault" are generally those that benefit from it. Perhaps a few, but I expect most are dismissive because they view it as an oops moment that sits with the player, not the seller.

 

I have been known to engage in what some consider dishonorable practices in the market in the past...namely undercutting. I don't do it all the time, but sometimes I want to sell an item quick, so I post it at a substantial discount expecting a quick sale.

 

Some view that as a dishonorable practice, and I am not sure I disagree. This is, after all, a game version of commerce, and in commerce this type of thing is common, both inflated prices and undercutting.

 

The best example I can think of is a major department store chain (I will not mention which one) recently had a buy one, get one free item.....a television. The normal price was 399.00 for this television, but the price for the promotion was raised to 899.00.

 

You see what they did there? Now, one could say buyer beware, you should be aware of the regular price. But does that change the fact that if consumers find out about this practice they will feel cheated?

 

The request is to remove sellers from the list that are obviously attempting to cheat players, allowed or not. I do not think that is an unreasonable request personally. I think it could go a long way toward discouraging this kind of dishonorable behavior.

Edited November 8, 2014 by LordArtemis

[LordArtemis]

Actually I have a different idea, since it has been mentioned that adding the GTN to the ignore list may block good sellers, and perhaps discourage folks from using the ignore function.

 

What is there was a way to FLAG a particular seller in the GTN list window? That flag would be for your viewing only, and there could be two types of flags....a green flag for a seller that you prefer, and a red flag for those you wish to avoid.

 

THEN perhaps they could find a way to sort the list based on these flags....green flags at the top, red flags at the bottom.

[Max_Killjoy]

Still think it's funny that some people see the two (buyer should be careful vs seller should be held to an honest standard) as mutually exclusive...

[Elric_VIII]

The OP does have a point here. I've never actually fallen for these morons trying to trap the unwary, but it is annoying to have them pop up every time I'm using the GTN. There are some people that do this all the time and you come to recognize their names. Being able to block them from your list would be a nice option, since they are just extra clutter to people that pay attention.

[Levram]

Adding materials that normally cost 3k at a price just under 3 million in the hopes that people are too tired or unattentive for any reason is a scam.

 

Ok, what in the world am I not understanding about this fractional pricing "scam?!"

 

You're saying that if you're shopping for an item that normally costs ~3,000 credits per unit and someone lists one item for a cost of ~3,000,000 credits that'll you'll buy the overpriced one by mistake?!

 

How is 3,999.99 credits similar enough to 3,999,999 credits that it's pulling the wool over your eyes? Any number with a decimal mark in it only has two digits after it. A non-fractional number will have three digits after the final comma delimiter.

 

Apart from this difference in the actual number of digits at the end of a number, there is the difference in the total digits in the numbers overall. 3,999.99 has six digits and 3,999,999 has seven digits.

 

And even apart from both of those major differences, the GTN provides a unit price sort option, from smallest to largest, if you click on the unit price heading twice.

 

The Developers don't need to spend the time to add multiple layers to the GTN system to protect you from yourself. They already assumed you were going to make foolish errors and added the "ARE YOU SURE YOU WANT TO BUY THIS ITEM FOR 3,999,999 CREDITS" confirmation dialogue to the purchasing process.

 

You are 100% personally responsible for either 1) not reading that warning text or 2) turning it off.

 

A protection system is already in place. Use it.

Edited November 8, 2014 by Levram

[TravelersWay]

You are 100% personally responsible for either 1) not reading that warning text or 2) turning it off.

 

We are living in the 21st Century where personal responsibility for one's own stupidity is no longer vogue - and that isn't just limited to games, unfortunately.

[Levram]

We are living in the 21st Century where personal responsibility for one's own stupidity is no longer vogue - and that isn't just limited to games, unfortunately.

 

And I had just looked up this 441 year old quote too.

 

"A foole and his monie be soone at debate,

which after with sorrow repents him too late."

 

- Thomas Tusser (1524 – 1580) from Five Hundred Points of Good Husbandrie

Edited November 8, 2014 by Levram

[LordArtemis]

The Developers don't need to spend the time to add multiple layers to the GTN system to protect you from yourself.

 

I disagree. They have added many elements to the game that protect players from themselves, including the specific dialog you mentioned. It is a very common addition.

 

I don't think requesting some way to mark or hide bad sellers as a QoL improvement is a bad or unjustified request. Nor more than the desire to mark or hide gold sellers, spammers or rude folks in chat.

 

After all, you could always close the chat window or ignore it...but there is a still a mechanic in place.

Edited November 8, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Levram]

I disagree. They have added many elements to the game that protect players from themselves, including the specific dialog you mentioned. It is a very common addition.

 

I don't think requesting some way to mark or hide bad sellers as a QoL improvement is a bad or unjustified request.

 

My point is that a functional layer of protection already exists. Time does not need to be spent adding a second protection layer to save players from themselves who choose to ignore the first layer.

 

And the Developers already added a quality of life improvement to address this exact problem. The "Unit Price" column was added to the GTN. Players can click it twice to sort all the horrible nasty scammers selling "overpriced" items to the bottom of the list.

 

This problem has already been solved. Twice.

 

Edit:

 

Actually, this problem has already been solved three times.

 

There is a "maximum price" search option. If you're buying units that you expect to be priced at ~3,000 a piece, just put "400,000" into this box. You will see every possible stack of units priced at 4,000 per unit or less and you'll be doubly protected from the super-scammers.

Edited November 8, 2014 by Levram

[pquadro]

I just got scammed out of 8 mil cause of the price setting scam, since whats done its done ill like to ban those sellers that put this prices for appearing at my sellers list, how can i do this pls?

 

 

Thanks for the credits

[LordArtemis]

My point is that a functional layer of protection already exists. Time does not need to be spent adding a second protection layer to save players from themselves who choose to ignore the first layer.

 

And the Developers already added a quality of life improvement to address this exact problem. The "Unit Price" column was added to the GTN. Players can click it twice to sort all the horrible nasty scammers selling "overpriced" items to the bottom of the list.

 

This problem has already been solved. Twice.

 

Fair enough, and you are certainly entitled to your view. But I have mine, and I see no need to browbeat each other over it. I simply do not agree with your views on this particular matter, only in so far as this is a change that should not happen or that time would be wasted on it. That doesn't mean you are wrong.

 

I do not feel this is a need, so we agree on that point. I feel this is a want, like any other QoL change, and a reasonable one at that.

 

Besides, it could have a very positive effect on seller behavior if they know they can get downranked.

Edited November 8, 2014 by LordArtemis

[PLynkes]

Until this happens to me, I shall continue to find it hilarious.

 

At that juncture you have my permission to turn the tables and laugh and point at me instead.

Edited November 8, 2014 by PLynkes

[Levram]

Fair enough, and you are certainly entitled to your view. But I have mine, and I see no need to browbeat each other over it. I simply do not agree with your views on this particular matter, only in so far as this is a change that should not happen or that time would be wasted on it. That doesn't mean you are wrong.

 

I do not feel this is a need, so we agree on that point. I feel this is a want, like any other QoL change, and a reasonable one at that.

 

Besides, it could have a very positive effect on seller behavior if they know they can get downranked.

 

Yes, I 100% agree. We are both speaking to each other in a reasonable manner. We will agree to disagree and I'm cool with that.

[LordArtemis]

Yes, I 100% agree. We are both speaking to each other in a reasonable manner. We will agree to disagree and I'm cool with that.

 

I appreciate your candor and the discourse.

[Theeko]

I think its just some try to get quick rich scheme, not really a scam even though at first I thought it was a scam cause they "Are" intentially doing it. But yeah its a legit item for a legit price, and I think a real scam is buying something that you did not get or paid for something but received something else.

[Levram]

I appreciate your candor and the discourse.

 

"We must always consider that we shall be as a city upon a hill—the eyes of all people are upon us."

 

- John F. Kennedy, 1961, quoting John Winthrop quoting the Bible.

 

Whoops, politics and religion in one post? That is so against ToS.

[Anniahilus]

To play devil's advocate for a moment to the players that are very adamant to BW developing some additional safeguard against overpriced items, why do you seem to only view this issue through that particular prism?

 

What about those sellers that forget a zero on their prices? The hypercrate that is supposed to sell for 3,200,000 accidentally gets listed at 320,000. I have yet to see any threads about sellers complaining that there isn't a confirmation window, or an additional layer of protection for those instances.

 

And I think the reason you don't is because (pulling numbers out of my rear) 90% of the community would say that that is the sellers fault. That is the sellers mistake, and while it's unfortunate that in the above listed example a player lost nearly 2.9 million credits on a transaction, people will say live and learn.

 

So isn't it just as fair to apply that same "be careful with what you click, and read what your doing, and just slow down for a moment" to the situation for the buyers that are falling for the unusually high price per unit items? Why should one end of a transactional economy be so heavily scrutinized and lead to threads upon threads, but when the exact mistake (intentional or not) is reversed, not so much as a peep.

 

I know that I have bought items that were accidentally priced too low. Most people that do call them bargains! I've bought ONE item that was overpriced. As soon as I did, I noticed what happened, chuckled to myself as I knew I'd made a mistake. And it hasn't happened again.

 

I'm in the "take responsibility for your actions, learn from your mistakes" camp. I don't think this issue needs to be addressed by the devs.

[Levram]

Why should one end of a transactional economy be so heavily scrutinized and lead to threads upon threads, but when the exact mistake (intentional or not) is reversed, not so much as a peep.

 

That is an excellent point.

 

Interestingly, entire segments of the real life (i.e. involving actual money) legal system are structured around the concept of "caveat emptor," or "let the buyer beware," the prime example being contract law involving the sale of real property (e.g. real estate).

 

Now there's a segment of transactions involving actual millions of dollars, and the legal system is built around the concept that the onus is on the buyer.

Edited November 8, 2014 by Levram